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Franco802

Went Down Yesterday

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Rode dirt bikes for 10 years and went down about 7 or 8 times in those 10 years. But this was my first time on a street bike in the one year I been riding and it's definitely much different.

 

I have analysed what I might have done over and over again. I narrowed it down to early entry, too much speed and target fixation in that exact order. Everything I learned at the school on what not to do, I did. One thing I did not do, which I been training myself not to do after reading TOTW2 and watching the video is to not chop the throttle in the turn. I stayed on the throttle until about 2 seconds of running wide and into the ditch where I crashed. Here is a few pics of the turn. I crashed riding up the hill not down. My bike is facing the opposite way because I came back down the hill to take pics. I took a panorama pic and a couple of regular ones. I thought I have been doing much better, I started teaching myself body position in the turns and decided to run a little hotter than usual yesterday. I am very humbled right now.

 

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Sorry to hear about your crash but I'm glad you're ok. So I have a couple of questions to try to help you solve this issue. First, let's try to analyze the root cause as to why you made your initial mistakes. Later, we'll get to a better way to fix the problem once you find yourself running wide. To start with, you said you turned in early and were too fast which sounds like a reasonable assessment as either one by itself can cause you to run wide. To break it down more... Did you turn where you intended to and it just turned out to be too early, or did you not intend to turn in that early. Also, when did you notice you were too fast? Was it right as you turned in or was it later as things weren't working out?

 

Benny

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I turned in way to early. I did not turn where I intended to. I was keeping steady gas in the turn. But when I got half way through it, I slowly accelerated. Then I started going wide and started looking at the wall, then down at the ditch. I should of kept looking into the turn. I think this is where the hook turn maneuver would of helped?

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Here is one thing to stick in the back of your rider kit tool box: if you know you are just too fast, then pick the bike up, and come into the brakes--letting them go when you get to the dirt. Often in this case the bike can be slowed enough to not have to run off, and one can turn again (coming out of the brakes to do so) before running off.

 

Glad you are not hurt (goes w/out saying, but I will anyway!), and good on figuring out that entry speed at the turn point is critical, and keeping a good usable turn point to boot!

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Target fixation is the worst SR in my opinion! Of course its hard to say looking at still pictures but you rode into the ditch pretty late into corner exit. Do you think you could have made it dispite your early apex and high entry speed if it weren't for target fixation?

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Do you remember where you were looking when you turned in? My guess is that you were already looking at the inside of the corner when you steered the bike. We go where we look, WHEN we look. Also, if you already felt at that point that you were too fast, riders have a tendency to "cheat" towards the inside early because we're looking there out of fear (fixated on the inside of the corner). In reality, it sets us up for failure because it forces us onto a tighter line that ultimately forces us to use MORE lean to make it work (or we run wide). The solution is to stay as wide as possible for as long as possible before steering. This straightens out the corner as much as possible, thus requiring less lean angle for the same entry speed. Being able to quick turn the bike allows you to run even deeper before steering and straighten the turn even more. The slower we steer, the earlier we must do so, the tighter the line must become and the more the required lean angle increases. In an unfamiliar corner, stay wide until you can recognize an apex based on the radius/characteristics of the corner. (HOTFOOT, do you have a good book reference? I don't currently have mine available.). Once you can see enough of the corner to know where it really goes, then you can commit. In a familiar corner, find a good turn point and use the 2 step technique. Anyone remember the three characteristics of a good turn point from their CSS training? The 2 step? Chime in.

 

Does this sound close to what happened to start off the crash sequence? If so, does the solution make sense? Once we get this straight, we'll address the fix once you're running wide. Yes, hook turn would have been at least part of the solution.

 

Benny

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Do you remember where you were looking when you turned in? My guess is that you were already looking at the inside of the corner when you steered the bike. We go where we look, WHEN we look. Also, if you already felt at that point that you were too fast, riders have a tendency to "cheat" towards the inside early because we're looking there out of fear (fixated on the inside of the corner). In reality, it sets us up for failure because it forces us onto a tighter line that ultimately forces us to use MORE lean to make it work (or we run wide). The solution is to stay as wide as possible for as long as possible before steering. This straightens out the corner as much as possible, thus requiring less lean angle for the same entry speed. Being able to quick turn the bike allows you to run even deeper before steering and straighten the turn even more. The slower we steer, the earlier we must do so, the tighter the line must become and the more the required lean angle increases. In an unfamiliar corner, stay wide until you can recognize an apex based on the radius/characteristics of the corner. (HOTFOOT, do you have a good book reference? I don't currently have mine available.). Once you can see enough of the corner to know where it really goes, then you can commit. In a familiar corner, find a good turn point and use the 2 step technique. Anyone remember the three characteristics of a good turn point from their CSS training? The 2 step? Chime in.

 

Does this sound close to what happened to start off the crash sequence? If so, does the solution make sense? Once we get this straight, we'll address the fix once you're running wide. Yes, hook turn would have been at least part of the solution.

 

Benny

Yes your correct, I was already looking inside of the corner and near the end I went wide and then target fixated on the wall and ditch.

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Target fixation is the worst SR in my opinion! Of course its hard to say looking at still pictures but you rode into the ditch pretty late into corner exit. Do you think you could have made it dispite your early apex and high entry speed if it weren't for target fixation?

Yes.

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It's amazing how much faster a corner become when you turn in too early. And how little you can see. I've use late turn-ins since my bicycle days as it slow things down and gives you so much more visibility as well as more choice of lines.

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It's amazing how much faster a corner become when you turn in too early. And how little you can see. I've use late turn-ins since my bicycle days as it slow things down and gives you so much more visibility as well as more choice of lines.

So true. I definitely was not ready for the second apex.for crying out loud, they even show this in TOTW2. I've watched that video over 50 times (not kidding) and I still managed to screw up that turn.

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Thanks Hotfoot.

 

Franco... I'll follow up on the rest tomorrow. Pretty slammed today.

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It seems crazy that you were able to cover almost 180 degrees of curve, just to run wide at the end.

 

Going up hill, we need less acceleration to keep the proper weight balance, as the rear feels more weight than the front.

 

Too much throttle in those conditions and you could overload the rear and harden the steering.

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It seems crazy that you were able to cover almost 180 degrees of curve, just to run wide at the end.

 

Going up hill, we need less acceleration to keep the proper weight balance, as the rear feels more weight than the front.

 

Too much throttle in those conditions and you could overload the rear and harden the steering.

I do remember it being very hard to counter steer near the end.

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It seems crazy that you were able to cover almost 180 degrees of curve, just to run wide at the end.

 

Going up hill, we need less acceleration to keep the proper weight balance, as the rear feels more weight than the front.

 

Too much throttle in those conditions and you could overload the rear and harden the steering.

 

Nice description as i encounter similar situations too ~

 

Im sure a programmable GPS + semiactive suspension would solve these problems

 

In the meantime I set my rear shock to be a bit stiff so as to lower the effect slightly (enough to get by going uphill but far from perfect)

 

As for the R1 ... My self taught mass centralization sense tells me the position and weight of the twin rear muffler compounds the problem (esp uphill)

 

A RC8R with underslung exhaust (lower COG + mass centralization) would experience less understeer going uphill imho

 

Just my 2c

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Your suspension is likely to be a tad soft for you. My 03 R1 was set up from the Yamaha factory for a rider in the 150-170lbs range.

I'm around 190lbs.

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Your suspension is likely to be a tad soft for you. My 03 R1 was set up from the Yamaha factory for a rider in the 150-170lbs range.

I'm around 190lbs.

I'm going to have to agree with you. It does feel soft. Especially when I was out at the Super bike school wearing a full suit. Not that it would of made me better as I wasn't that fast anyway. But I could tell it was softer.

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...One thing I did not do, which I been training myself not to do after reading TOTW2 and watching the video is to not chop the throttle in the turn. I stayed on the throttle until about 2 seconds of running wide and into the ditch where I crashed....

 

I'm back, sorry for the delay. It seems like you're comfortable with the information on how to prevent setting yourself up to run wide by using a good turn point that makes the turn as straight as possible, and steering as quickly as possible. If I'm wrong in that assumption, let me know.

 

Next, I'd like to address your statement above because I believe your understanding of throttle control is incomplete. First, the CSS definition of a good line consists of three elements: 1) Requires only one steering input 2) Allows proper throttle control 3) Makes your line through the corner as straight as possible. If you are on a line that does not ALLOW proper throttle control (i.e. you're running wide), does continuing to accelerate make sense? The answer is obviously no (I hope). The faster you go, the wider your arc becomes, which runs you even wider. The proper solution at that point is to MAKE A NEW TURN. To do so, you should REDUCE the throttle to at least neutral (less is better as it helps you steer more easily), steer the bike on to your NEW line and then apply proper throttle control again. DO NOT re-steer the bike WHILE accelerating because adding throttle and lean angle at the same time is a recipe for losing traction in the rear and crashing. Keith and the CSS crew will tell you that is the number one cause of track crashes.

 

I think it is awesome that you were able to train yourself to overcome the roll-off the throttle SR. It is a great demonstration to all of us that it is possible. I just think there was a small misunderstanding about the application of proper throttle control. That, combined with the target fixation you identified, I think is what kept you from being able to get yourself out of the situation you got yourself into by turning in early. You're definitely on the right track in seeking good information and working to apply it to your riding and I hope you don't let your mishap deter you from continuing on that path. Even better would be to get to a professional school (obviously, my personal recommendation is CSS). Best of luck and let me know if you still have any questions or I've been unclear.

 

Benny

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...One thing I did not do, which I been training myself not to do after reading TOTW2 and watching the video is to not chop the throttle in the turn. I stayed on the throttle until about 2 seconds of running wide and into the ditch where I crashed....

 

I'm back, sorry for the delay. It seems like you're comfortable with the information on how to prevent setting yourself up to run wide by using a good turn point that makes the turn as straight as possible, and steering as quickly as possible. If I'm wrong in that assumption, let me know.

 

Next, I'd like to address your statement above because I believe your understanding of throttle control is incomplete. First, the CSS definition of a good line consists of three elements: 1) Requires only one steering input 2) Allows proper throttle control 3) Makes your line through the corner as straight as possible. If you are on a line that does not ALLOW proper throttle control (i.e. you're running wide), does continuing to accelerate make sense? The answer is obviously no (I hope). The faster you go, the wider your arc becomes, which runs you even wider. The proper solution at that point is to MAKE A NEW TURN. To do so, you should REDUCE the throttle to at least neutral (less is better as it helps you steer more easily), steer the bike on to your NEW line and then apply proper throttle control again. DO NOT re-steer the bike WHILE accelerating because adding throttle and lean angle at the same time is a recipe for losing traction in the rear and crashing. Keith and the CSS crew will tell you that is the number one cause of track crashes.

 

I think it is awesome that you were able to train yourself to overcome the roll-off the throttle SR. It is a great demonstration to all of us that it is possible. I just think there was a small misunderstanding about the application of proper throttle control. That, combined with the target fixation you identified, I think is what kept you from being able to get yourself out of the situation you got yourself into by turning in early. You're definitely on the right track in seeking good information and working to apply it to your riding and I hope you don't let your mishap deter you from continuing on that path. Even better would be to get to a professional school (obviously, my personal recommendation is CSS). Best of luck and let me know if you still have any questions or I've been unclear.

 

Benny

 

There is a section in the video where it teaches you how to deal with running wide imho ...

 

 

How many of the steps do you apply or did not apply?

 

And how many SR's did you trigger?

 

This is fundamental to your improvement imho

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  1. ... Makes your line through the corner as straight as possible.
  2. ... does continuing to accelerate make sense?
  3. ... The proper solution at that point is to MAKE A NEW TURN.
Benny

 

Hey, I could use some help integrating this with my CSS schooling and TOTW study.

These 3 points sound new and different to me. I'm not sure why. Perhaps this illustrates a gap in my understanding?

Justin

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  1. ... Makes your line through the corner as straight as possible.
  2. ... does continuing to accelerate make sense?
  3. ... The proper solution at that point is to MAKE A NEW TURN.
Benny

 

Hey, I could use some help integrating this with my CSS schooling and TOTW study.

These 3 points sound new and different to me. I'm not sure why. Perhaps this illustrates a gap in my understanding?

Justin

 

Justin,

 

To be clear... if you are going through a corner on a good line (3 characteristics), then normal throttle control applies. However, IF you are running wide (i.e. you have to re-steer the bike to add more lean angle to tighten the turn), THEN the situation I was addressing about making a new turn applies. Adding lean angle while continuing to add throttle is a dangerous combination. In that case it is proper to reduce the throttle to at least neutral before making your steering input to add more lean, hence, making a new turn (think back... did CSS teach you to steer the bike with the throttle on or off?). Once the bike is re-steered and is on the new line that you want, proper throttle control applies again. You've made a new turn. Does that clarify things for you? Does this answer your question(s)?

 

Benny

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Benny, I found those last two posts of yours very illuminating. I *love* the 3-point CSS definition of a proper line. But I am with Justin on another point - I don't thing TOTWII makes very clear the point about throttle control once you realize you are running wide. Instead, it concentrates on mid-corner roll-off as an SR (which, of course, it often is).

 

I guess mid-corner roll-off is an SR (rather than just a good decision) if 1) It was unnecessary - you could have made the corner on your initial line, and 2) it is done in a panicked rather than a controlled fashion, going suddenly to closed throttle rather than rolling off just enough to facilitate the line correction. Is that correct?

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Glad your okay and damage to you and your bike was minimal, I think everyone who commented has covered most areas, remember slow in fast out... Conditions in road surface can also play a part, dusty dirty canyon roads are always changing. Sorry you went down..

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