Jump to content

Went Down Yesterday


Franco802

Recommended Posts

Benny, I found those last two posts of yours very illuminating. I *love* the 3-point CSS definition of a proper line. But I am with Justin on another point - I don't thing TOTWII makes very clear the point about throttle control once you realize you are running wide. Instead, it concentrates on mid-corner roll-off as an SR (which, of course, it often is).

 

I guess mid-corner roll-off is an SR (rather than just a good decision) if 1) It was unnecessary - you could have made the corner on your initial line, and 2) it is done in a panicked rather than a controlled fashion, going suddenly to closed throttle rather than rolling off just enough to facilitate the line correction. Is that correct?

YellowDuck,

I'm glad what I've said has been helpful to you. I think you're on track with your assessment above. As I see it, if you're running wide off the road, you MUST make a correction (or accept crashing). But you should never (a word I rarely use) add lean angle while adding throttle, so you must roll off to at least neutral to add the lean. In this case, it is a conscious, proactive decision and not an SR. Realize, though, that if you are already at or near the limit of traction when you roll off, you risk overloading your front (smaller) contact patch and crashing as well so there can be risk involved. This is why it's so important to leave yourself a large margin on the road where there are a lot of things that can hurt or kill you if you crash.

 

As for the SR of rolling off the throttle mid-corner... let's work toward that answer by having you (or anyone else) answer this question first:

1) What desirable effects does good throttle have on the bike? It maximizes two important things. What are they?

 

Benny

Link to comment
Share on other sites

...One thing I did not do, which I been training myself not to do after reading TOTW2 and watching the video is to not chop the throttle in the turn. I stayed on the throttle until about 2 seconds of running wide and into the ditch where I crashed....

 

I'm back, sorry for the delay. It seems like you're comfortable with the information on how to prevent setting yourself up to run wide by using a good turn point that makes the turn as straight as possible, and steering as quickly as possible. If I'm wrong in that assumption, let me know.

 

Next, I'd like to address your statement above because I believe your understanding of throttle control is incomplete. First, the CSS definition of a good line consists of three elements: 1) Requires only one steering input 2) Allows proper throttle control 3) Makes your line through the corner as straight as possible. If you are on a line that does not ALLOW proper throttle control (i.e. you're running wide), does continuing to accelerate make sense? The answer is obviously no (I hope). The faster you go, the wider your arc becomes, which runs you even wider. The proper solution at that point is to MAKE A NEW TURN. To do so, you should REDUCE the throttle to at least neutral (less is better as it helps you steer more easily), steer the bike on to your NEW line and then apply proper throttle control again. DO NOT re-steer the bike WHILE accelerating because adding throttle and lean angle at the same time is a recipe for losing traction in the rear and crashing. Keith and the CSS crew will tell you that is the number one cause of track crashes.

 

I think it is awesome that you were able to train yourself to overcome the roll-off the throttle SR. It is a great demonstration to all of us that it is possible. I just think there was a small misunderstanding about the application of proper throttle control. That, combined with the target fixation you identified, I think is what kept you from being able to get yourself out of the situation you got yourself into by turning in early. You're definitely on the right track in seeking good information and working to apply it to your riding and I hope you don't let your mishap deter you from continuing on that path. Even better would be to get to a professional school (obviously, my personal recommendation is CSS). Best of luck and let me know if you still have any questions or I've been unclear.

 

Benny

Yes you are correct Benny. I have still been thinking about what happen and it has stuck in my mind. I never chop the throttle. I have taught myself that with my own experience and reading Keith Code's book and watching TOTW2.

 

When I first started riding last year I had a Harley iron 883. I got bored and decided to purchase a sport bike. So I went out and purchased an 05' R1 which was not a good Idea, especially after only putting 190 miles on the Harley and selling it. So I mostly learned on the R1.

The thing I learned on that liter bike the most was throttle control. I quickly learned that chopping the throttle on a liter bike will put you on your ass quickly. Not that it happened to me. But when your accelerating and then all of the sudden you chop the throttle on a bike like that, that front end tucking hard and almost crashing will stick with you as a newer rider for a long time. So I learned throttle control pretty well.

 

Now I own a 12' R1 which is even more sensitive on the throttle. It almost drives me nuts and makes me want my 05' R1 back because the throttle was so forgiving on the bottom end on that bike. The bottom end grunt on this one makes you feel like your walking on eggshells when you turn around a little corner and need to accelerate while at slow speeds. But I have become pretty good at it so far. This is also the bike I used at level one of CSS, which was a blast!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

As for the SR of rolling off the throttle mid-corner... let's work toward that answer by having you (or anyone else) answer this question first:

1) What desirable effects does good throttle have on the bike? It maximizes two important things. What are they?

 

Benny

 

 

Better control & keeps the bike stable??

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have chopped the throttle mid-corner - as well as jumped on the brakes mid-corner - literally hundreds and hundreds of times. Mostly because I chickened out, but sometimes because I had run completely out of cornering clearance and tyres began to slide. In the latter cases, I first pick the bike up, but if I'm leaned about 35 degrees or less I just chop or brake without a worry. At 35 degrees of lean, you have about 85% of your grip available for stopping, turning or accelerating, apparently.

 

Has it gone wrong? Twice in 34 seasons. Once, when the shaft drive reaction lifted the rear wheel clean off the road when I already scraped exhaust, both stands, shifter, peg and boot on my Yamaha Seca. And once when I likely smacked the brakes on hard when I found the road blocked by two oncoming cars around a blind corner and locked the front - although I have no recollection of that accident.

 

Not saying it is the right way, but in my experience it is not something I consider dramatic at all. Probably because I am slow and so far from the limit of the tyre's adhesion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

As for the SR of rolling off the throttle mid-corner... let's work toward that answer by having you (or anyone else) answer this question first:

1) What desirable effects does good throttle have on the bike? It maximizes two important things. What are they?

 

Benny

 

 

I am going to say optimum weight distribution between the front and rear tires (40 / 60) and ground clearance.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

As for the SR of rolling off the throttle mid-corner... let's work toward that answer by having you (or anyone else) answer this question first:

1) What desirable effects does good throttle have on the bike? It maximizes two important things. What are they?

 

Benny

 

 

I am going to say optimum weight distribution between the front and rear tires (40 / 60) and ground clearance.

 

That's pretty close to what I was looking for and both are certainly true. I was looking for "good traction" and "good stability". Things I think most riders agree are important to them. The weight distribution you talked about is part of what gives you that good traction... you are using proper throttle control to match your weight distribution to the size of you contact patches. The other traction benefit of good throttle control is keeping your suspension (front AND rear) in mid-stroke which makes it most compliant, keeping your contact patches in better contact with the ground. The stability comes from the suspension not moving up and down so the bike remains on a predictable line. This condition is AS GOOD AS IT GETS, as Keith says.

 

The reason this pertains to our discussion is because, to me, rolling off the throttle to re-steer the bike due to running wide (or even to avoid an obstacle) is not an SR. It is a wise, deliberate action to avoid a bad situation. However, the closer to the traction limit you are, the more risk is involved to do it, and the less aggressive the roll-of should be. To me, it becomes an SR when you do it as an unintended reaction and it gives you undesirable or unexpected consequenses.

 

If you're not near the limit of traction and you roll off the throttle, you will run wider than you intended (braking magnifies this). If that now puts you in a situation where you're headed for danger, it will trigger more SRs. You can see where that goes next. It becomes worse when you're near the limit of traction. You can be there for several reasons like going fast on good pavement or running into gravel, an oil spot, etc. If you NEED all your traction and you roll off, you are hosed. You've just gone from your optimum traction conditions, as discussed above, to less than optimum when you need optimum the most. The results are usually less than desirable.

 

I have personally been saved by overcoming this SR when cornering fairly aggresively while entering a highway on-ramp and suddenly finding a stream of water across the road. Fortunately, my training kicked in and I gripped the tank with my leg so I could really relax on the bars and I kept my throttle roll-on. It took all I had to do it, but I did. Sure enough, when I hit the water with my front it slid, then so did the rear but because I was relaxed, the bike corrected itself and hooked back up. If I had rolled off, the front would have probably pushed way too much to get back underneath me on the back side, and if I had tightened on the bars, the bike would not have been able to automatically correct itself. Once the slide was over, I then found myself running wide so I rolled the throttle off to neutral, re-steered and got back on the throttle, all the while looking where I wanted to go and not the curb that wanted to ruin my day. There was no guarantee I was going to stay up, but had I not overcome those SRs through good training and mental rehearsals, I guarantee you I would have hit the pavement... then the curb.

 

Franco, I'm sorry you didn't have similar results but hopefully you have a better understanding. I also hope this helps other folks.

 

Benny

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Now I own a 12' R1 which is even more sensitive on the throttle. It almost drives me nuts and makes me want my 05' R1 back because the throttle was so forgiving on the bottom end on that bike. The bottom end grunt on this one makes you feel like your walking on eggshells when you turn around a little corner and need to accelerate while at slow speeds. But I have become pretty good at it so far. This is also the bike I used at level one of CSS, which was a blast!!

 

Franco,

I have an R6S that has a throttle that is very tricky as well. It is very easy to be abrupt when transitioning from off-throttle to on-throttle. I used to hate it but I've learned to appreciate it because it requires a very delicate touch. One that you can't have when you're even remotely stiff on the bars. It taught me that when I was being abrupt with the throttle it was because I wasn't relaxing enough. Now, a rough transition form off to on throttle is my first indication that I need to relax so I've learned to embrace that tricky throttle. It's been a great training aid. Try to relax like you were taught in Level 1 and I bet your transitions become smoother.

 

Benny

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

 

Now I own a 12' R1 which is even more sensitive on the throttle. It almost drives me nuts and makes me want my 05' R1 back because the throttle was so forgiving on the bottom end on that bike. The bottom end grunt on this one makes you feel like your walking on eggshells when you turn around a little corner and need to accelerate while at slow speeds. But I have become pretty good at it so far. This is also the bike I used at level one of CSS, which was a blast!!

 

Franco,

I have an R6S that has a throttle that is very tricky as well. It is very easy to be abrupt when transitioning from off-throttle to on-throttle. I used to hate it but I've learned to appreciate it because it requires a very delicate touch. One that you can't have when you're even remotely stiff on the bars. It taught me that when I was being abrupt with the throttle it was because I wasn't relaxing enough. Now, a rough transition form off to on throttle is my first indication that I need to relax so I've learned to embrace that tricky throttle. It's been a great training aid. Try to relax like you were taught in Level 1 and I bet your transitions become smoother.

 

Benny

Exactly!!!!!!! This is what taught me to relax on the bars!! It took me 6 solid months to learn and relax while riding. Even to this day when I'm excited while going on a ride with my friends , I'll tense up a little. But then realize I need to relax and I do.

 

Very true Benny. Stiff on the bars with off/on throttle especially making a right or left hand turn from a stop light with a busted up street. You have to relax on the bars for stuff like that or bad things can happen.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

Now I own a 12' R1 which is even more sensitive on the throttle. It almost drives me nuts and makes me want my 05' R1 back because the throttle was so forgiving on the bottom end on that bike. The bottom end grunt on this one makes you feel like your walking on eggshells when you turn around a little corner and need to accelerate while at slow speeds. But I have become pretty good at it so far. This is also the bike I used at level one of CSS, which was a blast!!

 

Franco,

I have an R6S that has a throttle that is very tricky as well. It is very easy to be abrupt when transitioning from off-throttle to on-throttle. I used to hate it but I've learned to appreciate it because it requires a very delicate touch. One that you can't have when you're even remotely stiff on the bars. It taught me that when I was being abrupt with the throttle it was because I wasn't relaxing enough. Now, a rough transition form off to on throttle is my first indication that I need to relax so I've learned to embrace that tricky throttle. It's been a great training aid. Try to relax like you were taught in Level 1 and I bet your transitions become smoother.

 

Benny

 

 

IMHO I read the 6 months as a bottleneck in learning other skills if you are stuck with a finicky throttle ...

 

Had a similar experience with a Honda NSR125 , XJ6 and NC700S

 

long story short as a newbie (i started from zero on clutch and gear shifting ,had > 5000 miles of self taught Twist2(book+video) SR.line and throttle practice thou on the family scooter ) ,

 

1: the derestricted NSR is so finicky on the throttle that I have near nothing left of the $10 worth of attention to modulate the clutch and do the shifting; I returned to the owner after like 500 m in the suburbs

 

 

 

2: the XJ6 's inline 4 have to be very "revvy" for it not to flame out during standing off the line traffic light get offs. Half of my $10 had to go to modulating the throttle properly...

 

I was physically and mentally exhausted after only 20 mins of practice on that bike. Pitted in early to let the others have a go and for some rest.

 

 

 

3:The NC700S ... the torque was so manageable from 1800 RPM onwards that I only need to spend like what? $2 on the throttle control? I learned loads like smooth shifting, modulating the clutch for uphill climbs/stop starts, front brake modulation (it has CABS which is FAR better than the XJ6's for 30-0 stops, the weight distro is much better as the front doesnt dive as much and less "chopping" of the front tire under ABS) , counter steering , look where you want to go (visuals) etc with the remaining $8 dollars worth of attention...

 

I was still raring to go after the allocated 30 minutes of practice on this bike!!

 

 

I personally learned more stuff per hour spent on the NC700S than on the other 2 bikes because it lets me have more $ of attention to do and experiment with other things~ but thats just me :)

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

Hey Franco, you mentioned that the throttle on your R1 is a bit finicky? I wonder if it could actually be finicky, and not completely down to the fact that you need to do anything too differently? Most bikes are known to have less than ideal fuel mapping from the factory (unless that's changed in recent years..?), but you could benefit greatly from a good dyno tune on your bike. That would be my #1 mod on any new bike. When I got my K6 Gixxer tuned it felt like a completely different bike, so much smoother and predictable, easier to ride faster and find new limits and also easier to ride around town and filter through traffic.

 

As for the problem of starting to accelerate and going wide - I read through the thread and I don't think anyone has yet mentioned one of the key points from CSS Level 1 that deals exactly with the question of when to start opening the throttle when coming out of a turn. I saw that you mentioned you have completely Level 1 so maybe a little recap on this point would be helpful. The answer is simple and at the same time thoroughly comprehensive, if you apply it you ought never run wide ever again (at least not from any kind of confusion over throttle usage).

 

So, how exactly do you know when to accelerate out of a turn?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...