Not Trailing Braking & Lap Times

[mugget]

What keith code has shown in his videos and books to me makes a lot of sense, that with a quick flick you create the better line and therefor get to less of a lean and back on throttle sooner. But does that reflect in lap times?

 

Indeed a very interesting question!

 

It reminds me of the inaugural Phillip Island 8-hour endurance race that was held in 2011. CSS entered a team... as for your question of whether quick flick shows in lap times, I'll let a CSS Coach answer it for you!

 

To set the scene, the gear shifter broke so they had to pit:

 

 

“Ben Fox, our mechanic came up with an impressive quick fix that got us back out on track, but the gear shift had to be relocated a long way forward, beyond the reach of rider’s foot. We had to take our foot off the peg for every gear change, and that was a little awkward,” explained Raffe, CSS Chief Riding Coach. “As a result it worked out easier to eliminate a few of the gear changes around the circuit and in the end we just use third, fourth and fifth gears.

 

“Also given that the stints were long, and we had a front tyre to preserve, we actually ended up pretty much racing around in three gears with light brakes. Funnily enough this is actually the riding format we use at the school for students in one particular exercise. To our surprise our times actually got faster riding in that way, and the tyre wear improved too!”

 

After being 11 laps down when they rejoined with the fixed shifter, they finished just one lap short of a win, finishing in 2nd. More details here: http://www.superbikeschool.com.au/sbs_news/id/27

 

 

For me there are a lot of reasons to concentrate on the quick flick rather than trail braking. I figure that if I have enough grip to trail brake, then I have lots more grip that could have been used for an even faster quick flick. Are races won with the brakes, or with the throttle?

 

The other reason for me is that leaving trail braking out of the equation greatly reduces my risk. All front end crashes are due to misuse of the front brake, never because of turning (assuming good surface etc., but even then you're still most likely to crash with the brakes involved). I only ride track days for fun, and I ride my street bike there, and I've not crashed yet on a track and I want to keep that record in tact! So for me I'd say that yes it definitely improves my lap times, all the while minimising my risk and making me safer.

 

For regular folks doing track days or club level racing I always come back to thinking of this type of situation: if a rider is trail braking, what's stopping the quick flicker from just zipping up the inside, turning and hitting the throttle? All while the other rider is busy trying to modulate his braking, monitoring his grip levels and watching you gas it? Okay, maybe it's not that much of a difference in reality, but you get the point. The rider who is trail braking is reducing the available traction that could be used for the steering input.

 

Like others have mentioned it's completely different when you get up to world championship level, WSBK & MotoGP. In the case of MotoGP they have completely different machinery that none of us can start to fully understand, let alone try to figure out the best way to ride them. I'm not sure about WSBK, but you can be sure they're like no bike we would ever ride. Given the speed and forces involved, perhaps they are already quick flicking to their limit while also trail braking?? Maybe it gets to a point where they would need to put so much extra effort into the quick flick for a minimal gain, they might decide that it's better to start trail braking to use the extra grip?

 

I think that's where people can easily get confused or start down the wrong path... they look at these world class riders and try to emulate every aspect of their riding. They see them trail braking, and so they believe that's the way they will ride fast as well. There's definitely things to be learnt from those riders, but given the machinery differences it only makes sense that some things won't apply at all?

 

I suppose even track day riders and club racers can get sucked into the same way of thinking, they just kind of follow along with what everyone else is doing... if you're mid-pack and everyone else is trail braking into a corner it's going to take a fairly big commitment for you to step out of line and try a quick flick at a late turn point? Just as racing or riding with faster people may help break down your mental barriers, maybe it can work the other way and limit you to doing things the same way they do as well??

[Stroker]

This makes a lot of sense.

[Hotfoot]

I believe what Hotfoot meant by " full lean angle " was not achieve your maximum possible lean angle, but your set lean angle for a given corner, be it 15 or 45 degrees

Yes, that is what I meant, thanks.

[Hotfoot]

I let off at about 30-40% of the turn ( apex is 50 % ) so near or at the apex i am off the brakes and on the gas.I trail the rear brake a little longer than the front.I let off trailing the front brakes before dialing in any serious lean.

 

I have not ridden for a bit, so i am foggy on the details.

The ideal scenario would be to brake such that you are tapering off the pressure and releasing the brake at the exact moment you turn the bike, so that you have maximum traction available at the front tire for turning instead of usurping some of that traction with brakes. By releasing the brake at the moment of turn-in, you also keep the front suspension compressed (if you let off the brakes, coast, then turn, the suspension compresses, releases and compresses again.)

 

Dragging the brake through the start of the turn often forces the rider to have a slower turn rate, because the extra load in the front tire from the brakes means less traction available for turning, so the rider is fooled into thinking he can't go into the turn any faster than he already is.

 

It takes some guts to do the no-brakes drill, but it can be very enlightening to discover that with a good quickturn you can carry a lot more speed into (and through!) the turn; doing no-brakes drill gives you laser sharp focus on entry speed!

[Hotfoot]

Back to the question about whether faster laptimes could be achieved with trail braking - here's the thing, a skilled rider that knows both techniques will USE both techniques, where they are appropriate! In some corners trail braking makes sense and can be the quickest way through the corner - a typical example would be a decreasing radius turn that occurs after a straight. In that case you'd want to carry your straightaway speed as long as possible so you'd brake well into the turn to get slowed down (as late as possible) for your late turn point (or your second turn point if it is a double apex turn).

 

If I could only use ONE of the techniques, I know I can turn faster laptimes quick-flicking without trailbraking than I can using trailbraking everywhere; when I trailbrake I can get INTO the turn faster but not OUT of it faster, so trailbraking only improves my times through turns that have a very high entry speed and a very low exit speed.

 

Possibly the reason you see a lot of trailbraking in the TT is there are a number of long stretches of high speed road followed by tight corners, and those may be the places the cameras favor since they are so dramatic to watch.

[mugget]

.. when I trailbrake I can get INTO the turn faster but not OUT of it faster, so trailbraking only improves my times through turns that have a very high entry speed and a very low exit speed.

 

Cheers for that! Now I finally understand how trail braking could be used to gain an advantage, never thought of that before.

[khp]

 

It takes some guts to do the no-brakes drill, but it can be very enlightening to discover that with a good quickturn you can carry a lot more speed into (and through!) the turn; doing no-brakes drill gives you laser sharp focus on entry speed!

 

 

I wish I could get to do the no-brakes drill with just me (and a coach) on the track. I often found myself being frustrated by some of the other students during the first no-brakes session, because I from time to time have to touch the brakes in order to avoid running into the back of the bike in front.

 

Hmmmm. Private track time, anyone?

[benhamf15]

 

Interesting comments, but my question still stands With a quick flick the radius of the turn will always be larger than a slow flick. Without the presence of other riders I don't see how machinery, track type or anything would change that?

err... shouldnt that be the other way around?

 

 

I think it is important this question gets cleared up because there is clearly some mis-perception on this subject so here goes...

 

1) What gives you a wider radius through a corner... an early turn in or a late turn in?

2) If you can steer faster (i.e. quick turn) can you turn in later?

3) So, what effect then does quick steering have on your line choices... more choices or less?

 

Benny

[ktk_ace]

 

 

Interesting comments, but my question still stands With a quick flick the radius of the turn will always be larger than a slow flick. Without the presence of other riders I don't see how machinery, track type or anything would change that?

err... shouldnt that be the other way around?

 

 

I think it is important this question gets cleared up because there is clearly some mis-perception on this subject so here goes...

 

1) What gives you a wider radius through a corner... an early turn in or a late turn in?

2) If you can steer faster (i.e. quick turn) can you turn in later?

3) So, what effect then does quick steering have on your line choices... more choices or less?

 

Benny

 

 

2) yes

3) more

[Ventodue]

Many thanks to both Hotfoot (posts 29 & 30) and Mugget (post 26) - clearest explanations I've ever read .

 

(Inspired by this Forum, I'm currently working hard on getting my braking and turning co-ordination better. Curiously with 'No Brakes', I seem to get it about right. But when I go back to using the brakes, I still have to fight over-braking and entering too slow ... Damn! Bad habits are hard to break! But it ain't gonna beat me ... )

[tmckeen]

 

 

Interesting comments, but my question still stands With a quick flick the radius of the turn will always be larger than a slow flick. Without the presence of other riders I don't see how machinery, track type or anything would change that?

err... shouldnt that be the other way around?

 

 

I think it is important this question gets cleared up because there is clearly some mis-perception on this subject so here goes...

 

1) What gives you a wider radius through a corner... an early turn in or a late turn in?

2) If you can steer faster (i.e. quick turn) can you turn in later?

3) So, what effect then does quick steering have on your line choices... more choices or less?

 

Benny

 

So IMO this is a rather tricky issue to give a definitive mathematical answer for and heres why

 

if you look at the corner as a whole, the quick flick technique means you could use a later turn point, be leaned over for less of the corner. This would straighten out the corner due to the line choice over a earlier turn point with a slower steering rate. In this regard the quick flick line could be considered to have a larger radius because of you have straightened out more of the corner.

 

BUT

 

if you look simply at the inputs, same entry speed, same turning point, the quicker steering input would achieve full lean angle sooner, apex earlier and exit tighter, while the slower input would apex later and run wider on exit, In this example the quicker steering rate would give you a tighter line and smaller overall radius for your line then a slow steering input.

 

So I believe a quicker steering rate will always result in a tighter line, therefore a smaller radius, when compared directly to a slower rate of steering, however relocating your turn point in the corner based on that quicker steering input can result in a larger radius for your line through the corner when compared to a earlier turn point with a slower steering rate.

 

 

Tyler

[benhamf15]

 

 

 

Interesting comments, but my question still stands With a quick flick the radius of the turn will always be larger than a slow flick. Without the presence of other riders I don't see how machinery, track type or anything would change that?

err... shouldnt that be the other way around?

 

 

I think it is important this question gets cleared up because there is clearly some mis-perception on this subject so here goes...

 

1) What gives you a wider radius through a corner... an early turn in or a late turn in?

2) If you can steer faster (i.e. quick turn) can you turn in later?

3) So, what effect then does quick steering have on your line choices... more choices or less?

 

Benny

 

So IMO this is a rather tricky issue to give a definitive mathematical answer for and heres why

 

if you look at the corner as a whole, the quick flick technique means you could use a later turn point, be leaned over for less of the corner. This would straighten out the corner due to the line choice over a earlier turn point with a slower steering rate. In this regard the quick flick line could be considered to have a larger radius because of you have straightened out more of the corner.

 

BUT

 

if you look simply at the inputs, same entry speed, same turning point, the quicker steering input would achieve full lean angle sooner, apex earlier and exit tighter, while the slower input would apex later and run wider on exit, In this example the quicker steering rate would give you a tighter line and smaller overall radius for your line then a slow steering input.

 

So I believe a quicker steering rate will always result in a tighter line, therefore a smaller radius, when compared directly to a slower rate of steering, however relocating your turn point in the corner based on that quicker steering input can result in a larger radius for your line through the corner when compared to a earlier turn point with a slower steering rate.

 

 

Tyler

 

 

Tyler,

 

You've got it exactly right in your analysis. If you use your same (earlier) turn point and quick turn, you will be tight. If you choose to quick turn you MUST do it later. It's that later turn point that you're now ABLE to use because of the ability to quick turn that gives you the wider arc. That wider arc allows you to either go through with the same speed and less lean or with more speed at the same lean.

 

 

For all,

 

So to follow up on the original question of trailbraking versus quick turning... I couldn't agree more with Hotfoot. There is a time and a place for trailbraking where the amount of our $10 worth of attention it takes to execute well is worth the benefit (as she addressed). However, I think most riders will find that the quick turn technique costs less attention which allows more focus on the foundation of every good corner which is proper entry speed. If you get that wrong, the whole corner is blown.

 

Now, to further follow up on the benefits of quick turning... when we approach a corner too fast, we fear running wide (or, not being able to get on your line). Conversely, if you're confident you can get on your line you're not worried about your entry speed. So what's the real problem... your speed or your ability to get on your line? If you can effectively quick steer will that help you get on your (wider) line with a higher speed? What happens to your line if you increase your entry speed but steer at the same rate as before? How does this apply to a series of corners (s-curves) that you're trying to go faster through? In other words, what must you do to be able to go faster through a series of corners?

 

Benny

[ktk_ace]

 

 

 

 

Interesting comments, but my question still stands With a quick flick the radius of the turn will always be larger than a slow flick. Without the presence of other riders I don't see how machinery, track type or anything would change that?

err... shouldnt that be the other way around?

 

 

I think it is important this question gets cleared up because there is clearly some mis-perception on this subject so here goes...

 

1) What gives you a wider radius through a corner... an early turn in or a late turn in?

2) If you can steer faster (i.e. quick turn) can you turn in later?

3) So, what effect then does quick steering have on your line choices... more choices or less?

 

Benny

 

So IMO this is a rather tricky issue to give a definitive mathematical answer for and heres why

 

if you look at the corner as a whole, the quick flick technique means you could use a later turn point, be leaned over for less of the corner. This would straighten out the corner due to the line choice over a earlier turn point with a slower steering rate. In this regard the quick flick line could be considered to have a larger radius because of you have straightened out more of the corner.

 

BUT

 

if you look simply at the inputs, same entry speed, same turning point, the quicker steering input would achieve full lean angle sooner, apex earlier and exit tighter, while the slower input would apex later and run wider on exit, In this example the quicker steering rate would give you a tighter line and smaller overall radius for your line then a slow steering input.

 

So I believe a quicker steering rate will always result in a tighter line, therefore a smaller radius, when compared directly to a slower rate of steering, however relocating your turn point in the corner based on that quicker steering input can result in a larger radius for your line through the corner when compared to a earlier turn point with a slower steering rate.

 

 

Tyler

 

 

Tyler,

 

You've got it exactly right in your analysis. If you use your same (earlier) turn point and quick turn, you will be tight. If you choose to quick turn you MUST do it later. It's that later turn point that you're now ABLE to use because of the ability to quick turn that gives you the wider arc. That wider arc allows you to either go through with the same speed and less lean or with more speed at the same lean.

 

 

For all,

 

So to follow up on the original question of trailbraking versus quick turning... I couldn't agree more with Hotfoot. There is a time and a place for trailbraking where the amount of our $10 worth of attention it takes to execute well is worth the benefit (as she addressed). However, I think most riders will find that the quick turn technique costs less attention which allows more focus on the foundation of every good corner which is proper entry speed. If you get that wrong, the whole corner is blown.

 

Now, to further follow up on the benefits of quick turning... when we approach a corner too fast, we fear running wide (or, not being able to get on your line). Conversely, if you're confident you can get on your line you're not worried about your entry speed. So what's the real problem... your speed or your ability to get on your line? If you can effectively quick steer will that help you get on your (wider) line with a higher speed? What happens to your line if you increase your entry speed but steer at the same rate as before? How does this apply to a series of corners (s-curves) that you're trying to go faster through? In other words, what must you do to be able to go faster through a series of corners?

 

Benny

 

 

I extend my thanks to you, Tyler and Hotfoot for such wonderful explaination!

[benhamf15]

Ace,

 

I'm glad you found it useful. Thanks for saying so.

 

Benny

[ScrmnDuc]

Many thanks to both Hotfoot (posts 29 & 30) and Mugget (post 26) - clearest explanations I've ever read .

 

(Inspired by this Forum, I'm currently working hard on getting my braking and turning co-ordination better. Curiously with 'No Brakes', I seem to get it about right. But when I go back to using the brakes, I still have to fight over-braking and entering too slow ... Damn! Bad habits are hard to break! But it ain't gonna beat me ... )

I'm glad to hear that. Keep it up and you will succeed.

 

 

 

For all,

 

So to follow up on the original question of trailbraking versus quick turning... I couldn't agree more with Hotfoot. There is a time and a place for trailbraking where the amount of our $10 worth of attention it takes to execute well is worth the benefit (as she addressed). However, I think most riders will find that the quick turn technique costs less attention which allows more focus on the foundation of every good corner which is proper entry speed. If you get that wrong, the whole corner is blown.

 

Now, to further follow up on the benefits of quick turning... when we approach a corner too fast, we fear running wide (or, not being able to get on your line). Conversely, if you're confident you can get on your line you're not worried about your entry speed. So what's the real problem... your speed or your ability to get on your line? If you can effectively quick steer will that help you get on your (wider) line with a higher speed? What happens to your line if you increase your entry speed but steer at the same rate as before? How does this apply to a series of corners (s-curves) that you're trying to go faster through? In other words, what must you do to be able to go faster through a series of corners?

 

Benny

 

I'll take a swipe at em.

 

So what's the real problem... your speed or your ability to get on your line? Neither, it's your confidence. You know, almost everybody has the ability to jump out of an airplane but how many have the confidence in themselves and their parachute to actually do it?

If you can effectively quick steer will that help you get on your (wider) line with a higher speed? Yes.

What happens to your line if you increase your entry speed but steer at the same rate as before? Your exit path will be closer to the outer edge of the track, or off the track.

How does this apply to a series of corners (s-curves) that you're trying to go faster through? In other words, what must you do to be able to go faster through a series of corners? It depends of the series of corners. Are they fast in slow out, or slow in fast out?

[benhamf15]

 

Many thanks to both Hotfoot (posts 29 & 30) and Mugget (post 26) - clearest explanations I've ever read .

 

(Inspired by this Forum, I'm currently working hard on getting my braking and turning co-ordination better. Curiously with 'No Brakes', I seem to get it about right. But when I go back to using the brakes, I still have to fight over-braking and entering too slow ... Damn! Bad habits are hard to break! But it ain't gonna beat me ... )

I'm glad to hear that. Keep it up and you will succeed.

 

 

 

For all,

 

So to follow up on the original question of trailbraking versus quick turning... I couldn't agree more with Hotfoot. There is a time and a place for trailbraking where the amount of our $10 worth of attention it takes to execute well is worth the benefit (as she addressed). However, I think most riders will find that the quick turn technique costs less attention which allows more focus on the foundation of every good corner which is proper entry speed. If you get that wrong, the whole corner is blown.

 

Now, to further follow up on the benefits of quick turning... when we approach a corner too fast, we fear running wide (or, not being able to get on your line). Conversely, if you're confident you can get on your line you're not worried about your entry speed. So what's the real problem... your speed or your ability to get on your line? If you can effectively quick steer will that help you get on your (wider) line with a higher speed? What happens to your line if you increase your entry speed but steer at the same rate as before? How does this apply to a series of corners (s-curves) that you're trying to go faster through? In other words, what must you do to be able to go faster through a series of corners?

 

Benny

 

I'll take a swipe at em.

 

So what's the real problem... your speed or your ability to get on your line? Neither, it's your confidence. You know, almost everybody has the ability to jump out of an airplane but how many have the confidence in themselves and their parachute to actually do it?

If you can effectively quick steer will that help you get on your (wider) line with a higher speed? Yes.

What happens to your line if you increase your entry speed but steer at the same rate as before? Your exit path will be closer to the outer edge of the track, or off the track.

How does this apply to a series of corners (s-curves) that you're trying to go faster through? In other words, what must you do to be able to go faster through a series of corners? It depends of the series of corners. Are they fast in slow out, or slow in fast out?

 

 

ScrmnDuc,

 

So what's the real problem... your speed or your ability to get on your line? Neither, it's your confidence. You know, almost everybody has the ability to jump out of an airplane but how many have the confidence in themselves and their parachute to actually do it?

You're right about jumping out of airplanes & skill... Anyone can jump out of an airplane and even the dumbest of the dumb will still find the ground one way or another. Trust me on this one, I've seen it first-hand. But back to the point regarding riding... if confidence is what is limiting you in your corner entries, what can you do to increase your confidence? Would you be more confident if you could quickly and precisely get on your intended line? If you could do so, would you be more confident in approaching the corner faster? I would suggest that learning & practicing the quick turn technique will GIVE you that confidence to enter corners with higher entry speeds.

 

If you can effectively quick steer will that help you get on your (wider) line with a higher speed? Yes.

What happens to your line if you increase your entry speed but steer at the same rate as before? Your exit path will be closer to the outer edge of the track, or off the track.

Both exactly right.

 

I should have included this question here in my original post for clarification: If you want to increase your entry speed onto the same line, what must you do with your steering rate... make it quicker, the same, or slower?

 

How does this apply to a series of corners (s-curves) that you're trying to go faster through? In other words, what must you do to be able to go faster through a series of corners? It depends of the series of corners. Are they fast in slow out, or slow in fast out?

 

Why does that matter? Go back to your earlier answer about what happens to your line if you increase your entry speed but steer at the same rate as before. Your (correct) answer was you run wide. So conversely, as your entry speed increases for the same corner/line, doesn't your steering rate have to increase as well if you don't want to run wide? If you're not able to steer quicker, won't that limit your entry speed if you're going to stay on the same line? Now apply that higher entry speed to corners that are linked together. If you want your entry in each to be higher without running wide, what must you do with your steering rate... increase it, keep it the same or decrease it?

 

Can you see now why quick turning is the key to going faster through any linked corners? If you go in faster and can't steer faster you'll start to run wide and it snowballs from there. If you go faster but can steer faster, you can still get on your line allowing you to get through linked corners at higher speeds without that snowball effect.

 

Did this help? Is any of this still unclear?

 

Benny

[ScrmnDuc]

 

 

ScrmnDuc,

 

So what's the real problem... your speed or your ability to get on your line? Neither, it's your confidence. You know, almost everybody has the ability to jump out of an airplane but how many have the confidence in themselves and their parachute to actually do it?

You're right about jumping out of airplanes & skill... Anyone can jump out of an airplane and even the dumbest of the dumb will still find the ground one way or another. Trust me on this one, I've seen it first-hand. But back to the point regarding riding... if confidence is what is limiting you in your corner entries, what can you do to increase your confidence? Would you be more confident if you could quickly and precisely get on your intended line? If you could do so, would you be more confident in approaching the corner faster? I would suggest that learning & practicing the quick turn technique will GIVE you that confidence to enter corners with higher entry speeds.

 

If you can effectively quick steer will that help you get on your (wider) line with a higher speed? Yes.

What happens to your line if you increase your entry speed but steer at the same rate as before? Your exit path will be closer to the outer edge of the track, or off the track.

Both exactly right.

 

I should have included this question here in my original post for clarification: If you want to increase your entry speed onto the same line, what must you do with your steering rate... make it quicker, the same, or slower?

 

How does this apply to a series of corners (s-curves) that you're trying to go faster through? In other words, what must you do to be able to go faster through a series of corners? It depends of the series of corners. Are they fast in slow out, or slow in fast out?

 

Why does that matter? Go back to your earlier answer about what happens to your line if you increase your entry speed but steer at the same rate as before. Your (correct) answer was you run wide. So conversely, as your entry speed increases for the same corner/line, doesn't your steering rate have to increase as well if you don't want to run wide? If you're not able to steer quicker, won't that limit your entry speed if you're going to stay on the same line? Now apply that higher entry speed to corners that are linked together. If you want your entry in each to be higher without running wide, what must you do with your steering rate... increase it, keep it the same or decrease it?

 

Can you see now why quick turning is the key to going faster through any linked corners? If you go in faster and can't steer faster you'll start to run wide and it snowballs from there. If you go faster but can steer faster, you can still get on your line allowing you to get through linked corners at higher speeds without that snowball effect.

 

Did this help? Is any of this still unclear?

 

Benny

 

 

Benny,

 

Off topic for a moment. then back to riding.

Anyone can jump out of an airplane and even the dumbest of the dumb will still find the ground one way or another. They are just verifing that gravity still works If you are confident that you will walk away unhurt does it really matter how smart you are?

Trust me on this one, I've seen it first-hand. Yep me too. I fly a lot more than I care too now and still think that something is not natural about landing in an airplane.

Back to riding now. I am completly confident in my quick turning. Is there room for improvment? Yes.

If you want to increase your entry speed onto the same line, what must you do with your steering rate... make it quicker, the same, or slower? It your are already at max lean then it will not be possible.

 

How does this apply to a series of corners (s-curves) that you're trying to go faster through? In other words, what must you do to be able to go faster through a series of corners? It depends of the series of corners. Are they fast in slow out, or slow in fast out?

 

Why does that matter? I was going along with the orignal theme of the thread. For those that trail brake "in the fast in slow out" could be hampered by how quick they can turn, at least for the first turn. So which steering rule would you apply?

 

I hope that clears some of this up.

 

Jeff

 

 

 

[cellige]

There seem to be three reasons people have said that seem plausible for all the trail braking in Isle of Man TT.

 

1. Long straights. Whoever mentioned using trail braking when coming off a straight to keep the higher speed for longer, I have a question for you. Since the quick flick allows you to turn in later, assuming your 100% on the brakes in both techniques, you would start braking later in the quick flick. Wouldn't that mean you keep the higher speed for longer with the quick flick?

 

2. The feel at the limit of traction from trail braking.

 

3. Different hardware. Perhaps for the superbikes, but certainly not the superstock and in the videos they look to ride them pretty much the same way.

 

Most thoughts in this thread are that the quick flick makes total sense, so specifically for the Isle of Man races I am still confused, perhaps its just number 2, but what a let down if that's the case Could a quick flick master come shatter the TT lap records?

[ktk_ace]

There seem to be three reasons people have said that seem plausible for all the trail braking in Isle of Man TT.

 

1. Long straights. Whoever mentioned using trail braking when coming off a straight to keep the higher speed for longer, I have a question for you. Since the quick flick allows you to turn in later, assuming your 100% on the brakes in both techniques, you would start braking later in the quick flick. Wouldn't that mean you keep the higher speed for longer with the quick flick?

 

2. The feel at the limit of traction from trail braking.

 

3. Different hardware. Perhaps for the superbikes, but certainly not the superstock and in the videos they look to ride them pretty much the same way.

 

Most thoughts in this thread are that the quick flick makes total sense, so specifically for the Isle of Man races I am still confused, perhaps its just number 2, but what a let down if that's the case Could a quick flick master come shatter the TT lap records?

 

Maybe at those IOMTT speeds, the roads (remember they are public roads , not hi friction maintained track tarmac) are "slippery" which is no.2.

 

Theres a list of things that prevents doing the quick flip in the video/book imho.

[benhamf15]

Jeff,

 

I've been away for a while. Sorry for the delay in getting back to you on this. I think I figured out where our disconnect is. I was talking about all the subsequent corners in a series but I think you were also thinking of the first. Hopefully my answers below will get us on the same sheet of music...

 

 

Back to riding now. I am completly confident in my quick turning. Is there room for improvment? Yes.

If you want to increase your entry speed onto the same line, what must you do with your steering rate... make it quicker, the same, or slower? It your are already at max lean then it will not be possible.

 

-- I'm not talking about when you are already at max lean... I'm talking about when you are at your turn point and STARTING your lean. If you approach that same turn point and want to be on the same line but you are going faster at that point, you must get the bike turned/leaned QUICKER to whatever your max lean angle for that corner is in order to still be able to get on that same line. If you can't match the increased speed with the necessary steering rate, you will run wide and that will snowball in subsequent linked corners where you don't have time to recover your line. You will be forced to slow down. The limiting factor to your ability to go through linked corners faster is your ability to quick-turn the bike. There is no other way.

 

How does this apply to a series of corners (s-curves) that you're trying to go faster through? In other words, what must you do to be able to go faster through a series of corners? It depends of the series of corners. Are they fast in slow out, or slow in fast out?

 

Why does that matter? I was going along with the orignal theme of the thread. For those that trail brake "in the fast in slow out" could be hampered by how quick they can turn, at least for the first turn. So which steering rule would you apply?

 

-- Fair enough. I've been saying that to get through a SERIES of linked corners, you must be able to steer more quickly to get through them faster while holding your same line. What I've been saying primarily applies to the second and subsequent corners. However, I would say that the entry into the FIRST of those corners is dealer's choice. Since it's a slow exit-speed corner (due to the subsequent corner immediately following it), trail braking can be a valid technique. You could either trail brake or quick steer into the first corner and which is faster for you depends on where your individual strengths lie. If you are a good quick-turner but not a good trail braker, you would probably get through that first corner faster by quick steering. Conversely, if you were a good trail-braker, you could probably go faster by trail braking.

 

Did we get there this time?

 

Benny

 

 

 

[ScrmnDuc]

Benny,

Welcome back from the real world. I hope you and your family had a wonderful holiday.

 

Jeff,

 

I've been away for a while. Sorry for the delay in getting back to you on this. I think I figured out where our disconnect is. I was talking about all the subsequent corners in a series but I think you were also thinking of the first. Hopefully my answers below will get us on the same sheet of music...

We have never been on a different sheet of music. I heard you playing 4/4 and major chords while I was playing 5/8 and minor chords. I do like the odd waltz even if it's not in 2/3 .

 

If you want to increase your entry speed onto the same line, what must you do with your steering rate... make it quicker, the same, or slower? It your are already at max lean then it will not be possible.

Well maybe you can help here due to the delay from answer to reply,too much holiday cheer , Where is the reference? I can't seem to find it now. It is in one of Keith's books.

If you want to increase your entry speed onto the same line, what must you do with your steering rate... make it quicker, the same, or slower? It your are already at max lean then it will not be possible.

-- I'm not talking about when you are already at max lean... I'm talking about when you are at your turn point and STARTING your lean. You didn't say that. But my answer above still applies.

To me you are looking at one specific area instead of the whole. You know as well as I do that many things of the past lead to the actions of present. The present being of course, What to do with the entry speed vs turn rate?

Vague questions receive receive vague answers, or answers that are not considered from he how hath asked!

Now here is a question for you.

What is max lean? ktk has already partially answered this in another thread. What would you add or take away from his answer?

Oh, I am still waiting on the answer to this question...

How does this apply to a series of corners (s-curves) that you're trying to go faster through? In other words, what must you do to be able to go faster through a series of corners? It depends of the series of corners. Are they fast in slow out, or slow in fast out?

Why does that matter? I was going along with the orignal theme of the thread. For those that trail brake "in the fast in slow out" could be hampered by how quick they can turn, at least for the first turn. So which steering rule would you apply?

Did we get there this time?

You tell me.

Jeff

[Dylan Code]

Skimming through this thread. How about some quotes regarding trail braking from Keith Code.

 

Probably the most fascinating thing about the subject of trail braking is that it is a very old subject that has been written about by Keith 32 (thirty-two) years ago. In fact he was the first to ever describe the technique for motorcycles in A Twist of The Wrist Volume 1, though he described the technique without calling it trail braking.

 

Here are few quotes. I have more if anyone wants.

 

"You back out of the brakes just as the turn takes over the job of compressing the suspension."

 

“Your target, or sub-product for any turn in which you brake and turn in succession, is timing the braking, steering and throttle so that fork and shock extension are kept as even as possible.”

 

I also have quotes about quick turning that will settle some confusions, but in actuality these type of confusions seem to stem from someone hearing another person "pick apart" some riding tech that they themselves don't understand. I may be smelling a little bit of this.

 

And to give a hint to anyone who needs it, if you are going to talk about steering rate, please consider all the attendant factors such as: speed, radius, lean angle, throttle timing and amount, camber, and desired outcome for a particular corner (e.g. hard drive out, set up for another corner that is faster/slower/same speed, etc.).

[ktk_ace]

Skimming through this thread. How about some quotes regarding trail braking from Keith Code.

 

Probably the most fascinating thing about the subject of trail braking is that it is a very old subject that has been written about by Keith 32 (thirty-two) years ago. In fact he was the first to ever describe the technique for motorcycles in A Twist of The Wrist Volume 1, though he described the technique without calling it trail braking.

 

Here are few quotes. I have more if anyone wants.

 

"You back out of the brakes just as the turn takes over the job of compressing the suspension."

 

“Your target, or sub-product for any turn in which you brake and turn in succession, is timing the braking, steering and throttle so that fork and shock extension are kept as even as possible.”

 

I also have quotes about quick turning that will settle some confusions, but in actuality these type of confusions seem to stem from someone hearing another person "pick apart" some riding tech that they themselves don't understand. I may be smelling a little bit of this.

 

And to give a hint to anyone who needs it, if you are going to talk about steering rate, please consider all the attendant factors such as: speed, radius, lean angle, throttle timing and amount, camber, and desired outcome for a particular corner (e.g. hard drive out, set up for another corner that is faster/slower/same speed, etc.).

Thanks Dylan, that cleared up quite a bit of confusion for me : )

[YellowDuck]

I like the idea posted earlier in this thread that the best possible timing is to be quick-tuning at the precise moment that you have fully released the brakes, so that the front suspension does not have time to decompress, but I have my doubts about my ability to do it in practice. I expect a few tenths of a second lag (at least) from releasing the brake to turning, and another few tenths to get the bike cornering hard enough to maintain that suspension compression. With a normal rebound setting I will have lost at least 50% of the fork compression in the interim, and possibly more like 75%.

 

We are still a few months away from getting to put any of this into practice up here in Canuckistan, but this is all good food for thought. Before last season I was riding "mentally" with you folks for several months before the season started, then jumped on the bike in May and instantly went faster than ever before.

[Dylan Code]

Timing the brake release with the turn-in is easier than many might expect. To start, enter a corner at a slower-than-usual pace, brake lighter than usual (because you are going slower), and release the brake as you bend the bike in. If you turn in slowly, you can release the brake slowly. If you turn in quickly, you must release the brake quickly.

 

Some quotes from Twist II:

 

“Of course, you can’t quicken the steering if you’re still hard on the brakes.” P. 75

 

“Radial tire technology allows for steeper lean angles while braking. So, while maximum straight-line forces are pretty much the same, the technique of carrying some braking down deeper into the turns entrance has been improved and you find many riders using it.” P. 103

 

“Turning the bike with too much brake; one of the more common causes of crashes.” P. 103