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Transitioning To Slicks


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Wow, slicks with that high a pressure hot...is that for sure correct Rchase? The Dunlops are way lower than that.

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I'm absolutely sure. I rode with 34/28 off of 180 degree warmers. Check out the specs.

 

http://www.pirelli.com/tyre/ww/en/motorcycle/sheet/diablo_superbike.html

 

Front has a range from 32-36 hot

Rear has a range from 25-28 hot

 

I was really doubtful myself of the 34 psi front but I tried it and it gives great front end feel without any sacrifice of grip. I ran the higher pressure because with the ambient temps there was going to be some cooling that would lower my pressure once I was out on track. On a hotter day I would have gone with the lower pressure as with aggressive riding and a hot track they might have climbed in pressure. The front dropped to about 32psi once they cooled a bit. The whole ambient temp game is still a bit of a mystery to me but I'm starting to pick up on the idea behind it. I still frequently annoy the fast guys at the track asking what pressure they would run if they were a slowpoke like I am. :)

 

The Dunlops are a different animal of course. I would certainly check the spec sheet if I were riding on them. I really liked the Q3's that I was running on my RR when I bought it. I'm pretty curious about how the Dunlop slicks are. With tires of course personal preference factors into it a lot and I have heard positives and negatives about every single tire that's out there. You just have to find one that works well for you and gives you confidence. In a lot of ways tires have a huge psychological element to them as there's always someone that can make them stick when you don't think you can. :)

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In my opinion Dunlop KR 106/108 are a pro tires. They are more sensitive in tarmac type, temperature, suspension setup and rider technique. They are more demanding tires than Pirelli Superbike. BUT when you make things right this tire is AMAZING :D . If you setup it correct they also last way more than anything I have used even beyond the marker.

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It's really interesting to see the differences in the tires and hear other people's feedback on them. My mechanic is a HUGE Dunlop fan. He's mentioned some really interesting things about them like you have that appeal to me. I'm filing all this stuff away for the future.

 

For now though because of my bike and how most of it's setup was done with Pirelli's I'll probably stick with them. I have a LOT of learning to do about suspension which I have yet to embark on. :)

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My trouble with the KR106/108 is that they are viciously expensive. Just the rear tyre is 100EUR more than the Pirelli Superbike (285EUR vs 185EUR).

 

The KR's are good for around ~1.0sec in laptime, on a 1m36s lap (when you're at the circuit record/national championship level).

I need to shave off 10seconds before I have those kind of problems, and I'm strugging just to get back to where I was in '11 :)

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It's funny. When it comes to safety I have a "cost no object" mindset. Since my motorcycle is held off the ground by two round rubber objects there's no cost consideration at all in my mind when it comes to those magic rubber things. If there was a tire that provided out of this world grip and amazing flexibility and forgiveness and they cost $1000 each my bike would have them.

 

That being said though the KR106/108 might give a lot of grip but they don't sound very flexible or forgiving for someone of my skill set. At the moment they are a bit out of my league. I would have em in a heartbeat if I did not think I would end up on my head watching my Superbike tumble across the track.

 

To put tire cost in perspective. A stock S1000RR will humiliate the $1M+ Bugatti Veyron Supercar. The Veyron wears tires that are $17K a set. Of course you can't change the tires yourself and they have to be sent to Michelin in France where they xray the wheels and the average tire change runs about $70K for the Veyron. For the level of performance we get out of our bikes the tires are a bargain. Imagine being outrun by a bike that costs less than the tires on your Supercar? :)

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An interesting question for everyone. What's the most important criteria for you in considering any tire? What do you look for in your tires?

 

Here are mine.

 

1. Grip (The more the better)

2. Consistency (I don't like surprises. Whatever a tire does do it all the time)

3. Progressive traction loss (I like tires that have a wide band of traction loss rather than ones that you fall off of a cliff of having traction and then suddenly having none)

4. Feedback (I like a tire that communicates the important stuff to me but does not overload me with unimportant feedback)

All other priorities are secondary including cost and wear.

 

In my short test on the new tires I'm certain I have 1, 2 and 4. I have not tested 3 and probably won't for a long time but watching a friend slide around with relative ease on the same tires when the time comes the issue will likely just be me rather than the tires. :)

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Pretty sure the boys (my coaches) run 23 hot on a rear Dunlop.

 

Yup, that's because of the NTEC construction. The carcass of the Dunlop NTEC's are much stiffer than other tires, which allows them to run the much lower pressure.

 

But when you change tires manually, they are much harder work than, say, the Pirellis.

 

 

An interesting question for everyone. What's the most important criteria for you in considering any tire? What do you look for in your tires?

 

Here are mine.

 

1. Grip (The more the better)

2. Consistency (I don't like surprises. Whatever a tire does do it all the time)

3. Progressive traction loss (I like tires that have a wide band of traction loss rather than ones that you fall off of a cliff of having traction and then suddenly having none)

4. Feedback (I like a tire that communicates the important stuff to me but does not overload me with unimportant feedback)

All other priorities are secondary including cost and wear.

 

In my short test on the new tires I'm certain I have 1, 2 and 4. I have not tested 3 and probably won't for a long time but watching a friend slide around with relative ease on the same tires when the time comes the issue will likely just be me rather than the tires. :)

 

I don't need a tire that makes the difference between being able to ride a 0:59.x sec or a 1:00.y sec pace, when my best lap ever at that track was a 1:08.86 (set in 2011) and the best lap in 2015 was a 1:10.36. In other words, it's my sense of speed and traction that sets the limit, not the tires.

 

Feel/feedback, consistency and progressive/controlable traction loss is important to me. Cost/wear is also a consideration, as I have a fairly limited budget. I once picked up a couple of really cheap Diablo Supercorsa SC0 rears. I very quickly realized why they were so cheap: they got shredded even at my pace in a single trackday - so not good value for money.

 

FWIW, I put on a new set of Diablo Supercorsa SC1/SC2's at the beginning of last season and put 2 full days and 2 half days on them. There's still a couple of days left in them at my current pace.

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Echoing what's already been said, I heard from club racer at my organization that dunlop slicks (211 I believe) are less progressive than pirelli superbike. A few crashes after they all moved to pirelli. They also said good things about metzler racetec RR, claiming they're very similar to pirelli.

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All tires have a really strong point. I find that Dunlops make a bike super easy to turn and give a lot of confidence because of that aspect. The Pirelli's are more progressive with their turning and that takes a bit of getting used to at first coming off of the Dunlops. One MAJOR strong point on the Dunlops is their wear. When I first got my RR I had it delivered with a set of Dunlop Q3's that endured a whole year of abuse on the track and refused to die. The Pirelli's don't have the wear ability that the Dunlops do. I killed a set of Supercorsa SP's before the end of the season that were heat cycled out.

 

Metzler tires are made by Pirelli and are standard equipment on the RR when it's delivered new. From what I understand the Metzler is a Pirelli compound with a different tread design and branding. The HP4 was delivered with Pirelli's as standard equipment and the DTC system for the entire Double R platform was tuned on Pirelli tires. That's the big selling point for me with one of bikes having DTC tuned towards the bleeding edge of traction.

 

On the budget thing. Don't get the wrong idea I'm not made of money either and probably would not really enjoy my time with my tire guy visiting him every track day for tires (even though we are good friends). :)

 

On the SC0. Any tire can become extremely expensive and a bad choice when you use it outside of what it was intended for. Here's a snippet on the SC0.

 

"SC0: The rear SC0 compound is best in higher temperatures and on less abrasive surfaces. It is highly effective for spring racing and in turning very quick qualifying laps. Durability of the SC0 rear will not be ideal in colder temperatures or on more abrasive surfaces over numerous laps. Track temperatures should range from 25°C/ 77°F and up."

 

Here's a snippet on the SC2 that my bike's equipped with now. I'm actually glad I looked this up as I have never put my tires back on warmers and had them lower than 70 degrees even after sitting for a bit. My warmers will show their initial temp as ambient if you don't stick them on a warm tire.

 

"SC2: The SC2 compound has a wider operating temperature range compared to the SC0 and SC1. The newest SC2 can be used at temperatures as low as 8°C/47°F and up to 55°C/122°F. The SC2 is a very good choice for club racers, longer sprint races, and endurance racing where tires changes are planned."

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Wow, great find on the compound information rchase. I've never found that kind of information before.

 

And yeah, there were definitely a few causes for the quick death of the SC0. Too low tarmac temperature was one of them. I did manage to reduce the wear rate on it by reducing the compression damping a lot.

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  • 1 month later...

I'm going on to my 3rd year track riding , mostly at midohio. I have a 2014 675r and moved to intermediate last year and did a few advanced at the end of the year. I was thinking of moving to slicks or at least dot race tires from q3's. But through a lot of reading some people metioned that I'd be missing out on the learning experience of slipping and sliding tires with street tires at a slower pace. Also mentioning that slicks hide a lot of rider mistakes until they can't anymore. This all made a lot of sense to me I was curious what you all had to say?

 

 

Also I've noticed fast people go through q3 or sp tires in a matter of a few track days. I have gotten 12 track days on my q3, I realize most of you have 1000's which probably burns through rears faster. Does me taking so long to go through a street tire mean I'm not pushing to the limits of tire and should stay with the q3?

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I'm going on to my 3rd year track riding , mostly at midohio. I have a 2014 675r and moved to intermediate last year and did a few advanced at the end of the year. I was thinking of moving to slicks or at least dot race tires from q3's. But through a lot of reading some people metioned that I'd be missing out on the learning experience of slipping and sliding tires with street tires at a slower pace. Also mentioning that slicks hide a lot of rider mistakes until they can't anymore. This all made a lot of sense to me I was curious what you all had to say?

 

 

Also I've noticed fast people go through q3 or sp tires in a matter of a few track days. I have gotten 12 track days on my q3, I realize most of you have 1000's which probably burns through rears faster. Does me taking so long to go through a street tire mean I'm not pushing to the limits of tire and should stay with the q3?

 

Over the years I have learned that I'm a bit of an oddball in comparison to other riders out there. Most of my riding problems are usually the complete opposite of that of others. I also ride an S1000RR with more power than stock and modified DTC maps so slicks make more sense for me. My decision to use these tires goes against the grain of the traditional thinking but then again so do I as a rider.

 

In my opinion the most important thing you can have in a set of tires is trust in them and the actual grip they provide. Everything else is secondary. Slicks may indeed hide rider mistakes but pretty much all modern tires do that at some level or another. It's also important to remember that some of those mistakes that they are hiding are unrecoverable and will result with you having an "agricultural experience". Are you willing to go there to learn from your mistake? I'm not! Especially when there are other ways to learn how to fix those mistakes.

 

Many people make a tire choice based on traditional thinking without fully understanding how it really affects them. In my opinion a lot of that traditional thinking comes from the observation of professional riders and their experience as children on dirt bikes. It also applies to a lot of older bikes and tires that are no longer applicable to what we ride today. If you are going fast enough to break traction on a modern 200hp bike with traction control you already have a lot of skill as a rider to do that safely or you are riding way over your head. If you are riding over your head tire choice is not going to change anything. If you have the skill and the training when the time comes that it does break traction you will do the right thing and be absolutely fine.

 

On your Q3's. Are they providing you the grip you want? Do you trust them? Are there properties of other tires you would like to have? Are you running warmers already?

 

On the slicks you are considering. Do you have a tire in mind? Do you understand the properties this tire has? Do you understand what you will be giving up and the extra effort required to run that tire?

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I'm going on to my 3rd year track riding , mostly at midohio. I have a 2014 675r and moved to intermediate last year and did a few advanced at the end of the year. I was thinking of moving to slicks or at least dot race tires from q3's. But through a lot of reading some people metioned that I'd be missing out on the learning experience of slipping and sliding tires with street tires at a slower pace. Also mentioning that slicks hide a lot of rider mistakes until they can't anymore. This all made a lot of sense to me I was curious what you all had to say?

Also I've noticed fast people go through q3 or sp tires in a matter of a few track days. I have gotten 12 track days on my q3, I realize most of you have 1000's which probably burns through rears faster. Does me taking so long to go through a street tire mean I'm not pushing to the limits of tire and should stay with the q3?

 

Subisti;

If you're getting 12 days out of Q3's at Mid-Ohio (a high speed track BTW) why switch so dramatically? If you want to dip your toe into the deeper end, you could try the GP-A'S first?

Kevin

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I very much like the q3. My bike came stock with Pirelli sp that's what I ran the first year they were never confidence inspiring, last year I switched to the q3 and instantly loved how planted they felt. When I made it into advanced one of the local pros was on the track with me a dashed if I've ever thought about racing and my pace would be good for novice wera. When looking into it a lot of the guys there said its would be nuts to try and race on street tires and I should move to a race dot.

 

That's when I started reading on a lot of the race dots, it seems everyone loves the supercorsa sc's. But for how much I liked the q3 I was thinking about the gpa but I guess there is a problem with getting tire warmers in them with my bike cause the fender is so close to the tire.

 

The supercorsa sp that came on the bike always had kind of a looseness in the back. I went to buy a new rear q3 and tj at riders discount talked me into a new set of supercorsa so' she said they are 2 seconds faster around mid Ohio than the q3 but my first track day this year is middle of May.

 

Sorry that kind of turned into a ramble lol

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I could see that actually. The Q3 has a great feel to it and it's profile makes the tire let the bike turn very well. The Supercorsa SP is a more rounded profile. When I switched from Q3's to the Supercorsa SP it took me a while to adapt to the rounder profile. It was worth it however as the Supercorsa SP seems to have a bit more grip to it which you need on a 1L machine. I also had the same "what the heck" reaction when I was adapting to the Pirelli's.

 

When I switched to the full Superbike Slicks it was interesting as well. Same profile but the tire is stiffer. Mid corner the bike feels more solid and planted. They seem to also be more predictable everywhere in my short time riding on them.

 

I may be riding on Pirelli's these days but I still love the Q3. It's a great tire. Last year at the school I took a school bike out for a few sessions and it was like visiting with an old friend. The Q3's are very confidence inspiring.

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I guess there is a problem with getting tire warmers in them with my bike cause the fender is so close to the tire.

Did I understand your comment correctly - you found a profile problem with the Dunlop GP-A not fitting your bike but the Dunlop Q3 did fit?

I ask because the GP-A is a remarkable tire and if the Q has worked so well for you so far, the Sportmax is the next level up in Dunlop anyway.

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Yes and no. I got woodcraft warmers last year and had ALOT of trouble getting the front warmer on. I've tried ovaling out the fender mount to get them to fit, but when thinking about switching to dot race or slicks , I read the gpa has a very tall profile and warmers are even harder to fit on the front.

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I have a set of Woodcraft warmers too. Some of the thickest warmers I have ever seen that barely make it under the rear fender of my bike. MotoD and Chickenhawk make thinner ones that might work better for you.

 

MotoD have a new version coming soon that has some rumored features that could be quite cool. I have a set of their computer controlled warmers that are quite good.

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