Pudders69 Posted August 31, 2006 Report Share Posted August 31, 2006 Hi guys Only just found this place then the forum wasn't working so i have had chance to read previous posts and tbh there seems to be wayyyyyy more science than i can digest. So heres my question: Whats wrong with this picture... p.s. the problem i was having (before both crashes that day ) was the std pegs touching down, now if this helps in any way i was running top half of the inters group (2nd track day ever) and about as fast as i was willing to push it (boy did i luv it though), but the peg down thing caused m to crash twice, how can i change my position/style to help? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Kane Posted August 31, 2006 Report Share Posted August 31, 2006 Hi guys Only just found this place then the forum wasn't working so i have had chance to read previous posts and tbh there seems to be wayyyyyy more science than i can digest. So heres my question: Whats wrong with this picture... p.s. the problem i was having (before both crashes that day ) was the std pegs touching down, now if this helps in any way i was running top half of the inters group (2nd track day ever) and about as fast as i was willing to push it (boy did i luv it though), but the peg down thing caused m to crash twice, how can i change my position/style to help? It's hard to tell from a single photograph but it looks like you're "crossed up" - your butt is off the seat but your torso and head are back over the tank. This diminishes the benefit of hanging off which is done to lower the center of gravity of you and the bike which in turn requires less lean angle for the same corner speed. Others may see this differently, hopefully they will also chime in here. Kevin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pudders69 Posted August 31, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2006 cheers fella. tbh the whole head down - hang off thing is a bit alien and although i have tried it on the road i don't suppose with everything else you have to deal with , the road is the best place. must earn more money to pay for impending track addiction. p.s. sure this is all very basic to you lot but thats why i am here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racer Posted August 31, 2006 Report Share Posted August 31, 2006 I agree with Kevin that a single static photo is not much to go on to analyze a dynamic process. (How's that for sciencey sounding words, haha). I recommend attending a Keith Code school for some really awesome coaching. In fact, since you've already had some track riding experience, I would strongly recommend a school session with Keith. Based on my own experience, it is my opinion that at this point your money will be better spent at a Keith Code school as you will learn far more much faster than you will ever learn by attending more track days without proper training. (Shameless, yet, unsolicited plug.) I also agree with Kevin that your body position looks a bit "crossed-up". (I'll save the CoG discussion for a dedicated thread.) I will add this: Most race bikes I have ever known have what are commonly referred to as "rear sets". That is footpegs that are set higher and further back. Some foot pegs on street bikes are simply too low for fast riding on the racetrack. I am not up on the current aftermarket kit availability for your make/model but a little bit of research will almost certainly reveal some options there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Das Bone Posted September 1, 2006 Report Share Posted September 1, 2006 Ditto to what Kevin and Racer said. Just to add: By "crossing up"( i.e. getting your lower body off the bike to the inside(good) while your torso and head is going back across the bikes center line(bad)) you're effectively negating one of the main benefits of "hanging off" which is to decrease the bike's lean angle. So, you're carrying more lean angle thereby dragging hard parts(pegs in this case). Leaning off/hanging off when done correctly means that your entire body moves off to the inside to get maximum advantage from the technique. It takes practice obviously but when used to full advantage it's very helpful to say the least :lol People talk about "kissing the mirrors, etc." as ways to describe the amount of upper body shift . Whatever works for you as long as you're moving your entire body to the inside as opposed to "lower body hanging off and upper body back over the bike" Hope that helps some I don't know if posting this pic will help at all or if I should post it(if not, mods please remove ).........I actually should have been even a bit lower with my upper body than I was but maybe it will help to illustrate what we're trying to say. Craig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pudders69 Posted September 1, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 1, 2006 Cheers guys Pretty much what a freind said but as you cannot always trust what "some bloke" on a trackday says its good to have the benefits of your experience. Thanks again Pud Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harnois Posted September 1, 2006 Report Share Posted September 1, 2006 I had the same problem when I took level 1 (dragging pegs) for the same reason (crossed up). I think most riders end up in that position unless they are trained to do otherwise. I suggest you keep looking at new pictures of yourself and/or have other good riders evaluate your position, because even after being told about it, I found that I perceived that I was hanging my shoulders off a lot more than I actually was, and I was still somewhat crossed up. I really had to hang them out to the point where it actually felt weird before it started to look right. Get the shoulders out and low. At first it may feel weird but later it will feel weird to be crossed up. When you make this change it may be tempting to start holding your weight on the handlebars, which is bad. Buy the stomp tank grip things sold on the products page of this site so you can grip onto the bike with your legs really well. Pushing on the bars inadvertently mid-turn would make you crash just as easily as dragging pegs. Of course the best thing to do would just be take the course so you can work with the coaches and know you are getting it right. I have a yzf600r and I did put shorter pegs on it with no feelers, but I have not found it necessary to have rearsets, and I'm sure the stock pegs on this bike are not as high as some other more aggressive sportbikes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racer Posted September 1, 2006 Report Share Posted September 1, 2006 Yes, I agree. I would not recommend rearsets as the first solution. More as the last resort or next step after you have a good grip on body position and might still be touching pegs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanfret Posted September 4, 2006 Report Share Posted September 4, 2006 The easiest thing for me to do was put my nose in line with the edge of the upper (where the mirror would mount), this forces your head and shoulders down and over on the bike... less likely to scrape ###### and crash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhema83 Posted September 7, 2006 Report Share Posted September 7, 2006 I was fortunate enough to learn body positioning from semi-pro racers at my home track. The tip they initially gave me was to look where I want to go, and point my shoulder toward the same direction. It usually makes me hang off enough that the bike is not leaning too much, yet my knee sliders are not on the ground yet. (Refer to my signature pic.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Code Posted September 9, 2006 Report Share Posted September 9, 2006 I was fortunate enough to learn body positioning from semi-pro racers at my home track. The tip they initially gave me was to look where I want to go, and point my shoulder toward the same direction. It usually makes me hang off enough that the bike is not leaning too much, yet my knee sliders are not on the ground yet. (Refer to my signature pic.) rhema83, Look into the turn is great advice as is the shoulder pointing. There are other parts to good body position that are equally important to having your shoulder pointed toward the turn's direction. I have a question. If you compared the shot you posted to Ben Spies or Danny Pedrosa or Val Rossi, etc., what would you say the difference between your head and upper body position and their's would be? Keith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhema83 Posted September 10, 2006 Report Share Posted September 10, 2006 rhema83, Look into the turn is great advice as is the shoulder pointing. There are other parts to good body position that are equally important to having your shoulder pointed toward the turn's direction. I have a question. If you compared the shot you posted to Ben Spies or Danny Pedrosa or Val Rossi, etc., what would you say the difference between your head and upper body position and their's would be? Keith Hi Keith, Since you mentioned Rossi, I will post a couple of pics from the very recent Sepang GP as our reference. Honestly, what I notice is that Rossi doesn't hang off that much, and his chest is close to the tank at full lean. Also, his head is pointed slightly downward although I am sure he is looking far ahead in the corner. Also, after a few more careful looks, I think the center line of his body makes a very very small angle with the center line of the bike. That means, he didn't use his hands as the fulcrum and rotated his butt outward. He "rolled" off the bike to the inside and hangs on with his outer knee and outer arm. Am I correct? I have this feeling that many riders, including myself, pay too much attention to hanging off itself and not realize that it's a mean to an end and not an end in itself. Somebody once said "The best line ... is the one that most efficiently uses my tires. ... Lines aren't the objective, but merely a result." I think that applies to riding and cornering as well. James Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Code Posted September 10, 2006 Report Share Posted September 10, 2006 rhema83, Look into the turn is great advice as is the shoulder pointing. There are other parts to good body position that are equally important to having your shoulder pointed toward the turn's direction. I have a question. If you compared the shot you posted to Ben Spies or Danny Pedrosa or Val Rossi, etc., what would you say the difference between your head and upper body position and their's would be? Keith Hi Keith, Since you mentioned Rossi, I will post a couple of pics from the very recent Sepang GP as our reference. Honestly, what I notice is that Rossi doesn't hang off that much, and his chest is close to the tank at full lean. Also, his head is pointed slightly downward although I am sure he is looking far ahead in the corner. Also, after a few more careful looks, I think the center line of his body makes a very very small angle with the center line of the bike. That means, he didn't use his hands as the fulcrum and rotated his butt outward. He "rolled" off the bike to the inside and hangs on with his outer knee and outer arm. Am I correct? I have this feeling that many riders, including myself, pay too much attention to hanging off itself and not realize that it's a mean to an end and not an end in itself. Somebody once said "The best line ... is the one that most efficiently uses my tires. ... Lines aren't the objective, but merely a result." I think that applies to riding and cornering as well. James James, The center line of the body to bike is a good place to start with your riding position and yes, hanging of to the floor can be more of a detriment to most riders than a help. Get yourself in line with the bike and send us another shot. Keith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhema83 Posted September 11, 2006 Report Share Posted September 11, 2006 James, The center line of the body to bike is a good place to start with your riding position and yes, hanging of to the floor can be more of a detriment to most riders than a help. Get yourself in line with the bike and send us another shot. Keith Keith, Thanks! I need a little bit of clarification, though. By "get yourself in line with the bike" do you mean getting the centerline of my body to be parallel to the centerline of the bike? Or do you mean, the two centerlines should be the same aka I stay on the seat. I just read in the latest issue of Sport Rider (I wonder how much credibility the columnists have) and they said something similar. As the bike leans into the corner, shift your upper body off about an equal amount to your lower body so that your back is more or less parallel to the centerline of the bike but offset to the inside about four to six inches. I hope I am not missing the whole point. Thanks a million! James Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racer Posted September 12, 2006 Report Share Posted September 12, 2006 Whether on the seat or hanging off, centerline of the body... the head, the back, the spine, the butt in line and parallel with the bike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhema83 Posted September 13, 2006 Report Share Posted September 13, 2006 Whether on the seat or hanging off, centerline of the body... the head, the back, the spine, the butt in line and parallel with the bike. Thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pudders69 Posted September 13, 2006 Author Report Share Posted September 13, 2006 this looks a bit better?, old one from silverstone...1st TD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racer Posted September 13, 2006 Report Share Posted September 13, 2006 James, IMO, the best example or easiest to see the total package is the 4th Rossi photo (shot from behind). The 3rd one just before it is pretty good to get an idea of head postion being down low, hence, the body parallel from the side view as well as coronal or above view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhema83 Posted September 13, 2006 Report Share Posted September 13, 2006 James, IMO, the best example or easiest to see the total package is the 4th Rossi photo (shot from behind). The 3rd one just before it is pretty good to get an idea of head postion being down low, hence, the body parallel from the side view as well as coronal or above view. Thanks again. That was really clear. I looked at all my track photos yesterday. I think I am not consistent. I am in a better position (according to the standards we have came to agree on here) on right-handers, but I always feel less confident with them. I really need to go track a few more times and go slower than normal to work on the basics again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhema83 Posted September 17, 2006 Report Share Posted September 17, 2006 Here is another pic of the same 60mph left-hander. Please don't mind the letters. Was my body in a slightly better position? Or did I do worse? Next is a pic of me doing a 80mph right-hander (right after the front straight). Sorry that it's blur. The person taking this photograph forgot to set my camera shutter speed. Is my position any better? I notice that I need to sit nearer to the tank. But otherwise this looks pretty close to what I think it correct. Kindly comment. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racer Posted September 17, 2006 Report Share Posted September 17, 2006 I don't see a big difference between the two head-on photos. Your position isn't horrible but in both photos your head and by extension your upper spine seems to be pointed at the middle of the windscreen. Try leading with your head off to the side, kissing the mirror, as they say. As far as needing to "sit nearer the tank", I'm not sure what you mean. I think it will be easier to get your head low if you shift your butt rearward in the seat which will also help you stay "low and long" as they say. If you mean that you need to get your chest down nearer to the tank, then, yes. In general, the more you can stay behind the bubble, the less wind resistance you will create = better aerodynamics. Also, if you start down low, it will be easier to simply shift sideways since you are already low on the bike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wacko Posted September 18, 2006 Report Share Posted September 18, 2006 hi guys.. a newbie here.. just went tracking few months back.. seems like good advices are given here.. thought i need some advice in my body posture and lean angle during cornering.. by the way.. me and rhema83 play on the same track.. so need some advice.. here are the pics.. comments and advice is aprreciated.. tahnjks.. cheers.. wacko.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhema83 Posted September 18, 2006 Report Share Posted September 18, 2006 Thanks racer. I guess Keith must be busy over the weekend. wacko, I think you suffer from the same mistake as I do. If you look at your last two pictures, the centerline of your body is pointing to the middle of the windscreen as well. I think many riders at Johor Circuit don't have proper training and make the same mistake as us. Interestingly, the October '06 issue of Sport Rider has a feature on what AMA racers have to say about body positioning, followed by the analysis of their positions. Apparently, Mat Mladin has the most ideal position. No wonder he is the champion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Code Posted September 18, 2006 Report Share Posted September 18, 2006 Here is another pic of the same 60mph left-hander. Please don't mind the letters. Was my body in a slightly better position? Or did I do worse? Next is a pic of me doing a 80mph right-hander (right after the front straight). Sorry that it's blur. The person taking this photograph forgot to set my camera shutter speed. Is my position any better? I notice that I need to sit nearer to the tank. But otherwise this looks pretty close to what I think it correct. Kindly comment. Thanks! Your helmet should be where the mirror is on the right. Keith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhema83 Posted September 18, 2006 Report Share Posted September 18, 2006 Your helmet should be where the mirror is on the right. Keith That's awesome advice, Keith. Thanks! Now I need to get on the track and practice it at comfortable speeds first. That'll be December when I get back home... How I wish CSS can be held in NY state. I guess it'll be next year when I can go to Pocono, PA for some lessons personally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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