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Braking Turn 5 Barber (you Call It Turn 4)


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Hi Guys,

It is getting close to the start of track season. My first is at Barber March 1 and 2. I have an issue with braking in turn 5 which is the hair pin off camber coming down the hill. I have done many track days at Barber and seem to be able to handle negotiating the track given my level of experience. Early in my track day experience I load sided there but understand thanks to you guys the problem with that. My problem now or has been is that I tend to get into a bounce that I can't get out of from time to time depending on how hard I brake. I have gone off the track because of my inability to slow down enough to make the turn ( bouncing). This turn does have issues with ripples from car braking but I don't think that is the cause. I have Ohlins forks and shock and decreased rebound on the front forks two clicks from settings that were sent to me and I still get it. What could I be doing wrong?

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Hi Guys,

It is getting close to the start of track season. My first is at Barber March 1 and 2. I have an issue with braking in turn 5 which is the hair pin off camber coming down the hill. I have done many track days at Barber and seem to be able to handle negotiating the track given my level of experience. Early in my track day experience I load sided there but understand thanks to you guys the problem with that. My problem now or has been is that I tend to get into a bounce that I can't get out of from time to time depending on how hard I brake. I have gone off the track because of my inability to slow down enough to make the turn ( bouncing). This turn does have issues with ripples from car braking but I don't think that is the cause. I have Ohlins forks and shock and decreased rebound on the front forks two clicks from settings that were sent to me and I still get it. What could I be doing wrong?

 

 

 

Are the springs in your Ohlin's sized for your weight? I was having pronounced oscillation in my bike's forks under heavy braking until I swapped the "racing springs" the previous owner had installed out for a pair that were more appropriate for my size - problem solved. YRMV.

 

Kevin Kane

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Hi Guys,

It is getting close to the start of track season. My first is at Barber March 1 and 2. I have an issue with braking in turn 5 which is the hair pin off camber coming down the hill. I have done many track days at Barber and seem to be able to handle negotiating the track given my level of experience. Early in my track day experience I low sided there but understand thanks to you guys the problem with that. My problem now or has been is that I tend to get into a bounce that I can't get out of from time to time depending on how hard I brake. I have gone off the track because of my inability to slow down enough to make the turn ( bouncing). This turn does have issues with ripples from car braking but I don't think that is the cause. I have Ohlins forks and shock and decreased rebound on the front forks two clicks from settings that were sent to me and I still get it. What could I be doing wrong?

 

 

 

Are the springs in your Ohlin's sized for your weight? I was having pronounced oscillation in my bike's forks under heavy braking until I swapped the "racing springs" the previous owner had installed out for a pair that were more appropriate for my size - problem solved. YRMV.

 

Kevin Kane

 

 

Thanks for the response Kevin. The forks were ordered with my specific weight including equipment so unless there was a major screw up I do not think that is the problem. I will check with the vender I bought them from. I will be taking the level 4 class at Barber in April so maybe one of you guys can help if I do not solve the issue before then. Thanks

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Can you describe what the "bouncing" feels like in a little more detail?

 

I am not really familiar with this particular corner but I get the idea the 'bouncing' or oscillation begins in a downhill braking zone and that you aren't hard on the brakes?

 

I don't like to give suggestions without knowing more detail but my initial instinct would be to *increase* damping, maybe both rebound and compression. Without more info it is hard to say for sure. But assuming springs, oil weight and oil level are correct, that is where I would start. I don't know what the rebound range is; but, for a rough sort I'd give it more than just 1-2 clicks. I'd try 3-4 to see if I were going in the right direction. Once I knew which way to go, then I'd fine tune it.

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Can you describe what the "bouncing" feels like in a little more detail?

 

I am not really familiar with this particular corner but I get the idea the 'bouncing' or oscillation begins in a downhill braking zone and that you aren't hard on the brakes?

 

I don't like to give suggestions without knowing more detail but my initial instinct would be to *increase* damping, maybe both rebound and compression. Without more info it is hard to say for sure. But assuming springs, oil weight and oil level are correct, that is where I would start. I don't know what the rebound range is; but, for a rough sort I'd give it more than just 1-2 clicks. I'd try 3-4 to see if I were going in the right direction. Once I knew which way to go, then I'd fine tune it.

 

Thanks for your time. I will be the first to admit that my knowledge of suspension set up could fit on the head of a pin but I bought my forks and shock from Dan Kyle and have the utmost confidence in his ability. That being said, the bounce seems to feel like a resonance that begins under hard breaking and is difficult to stop before the entry into the turn. It feels like riding down rutted dirt road in your car like it just picks your car up on the top of the ruts and theres not much you can do until you get the car slowed down. When this occurs I feel like the only way to stop it is to let off the brake and of course I am then touring Mr. Barbers beautifully groomed lawn.

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This turn does have issues with ripples from car braking but I don't think that is the cause.

 

Why not?

 

Does this mean that you believe you are avoiding the ripples? Like you have found a smooth line through the braking zone?

 

Or does it mean you are riding over them but you are familiar with what ripples feel like and what is happening does not feel like that?

 

Ripples in the pavement from cars can be pronounced or subtle. Sometimes they are more wavy than bumpy washboard. Sometimes there are other imperfections in the pavement that might not be noticed if one is focusing on avoiding the car bumps.

 

My problem now or has been is that I tend to get into a bounce that I can't get out of from time to time depending on how hard I brake.

 

"From time to time" and "depending on how hard you brake."

 

So, does this mean that it only ever happens when you brake hard in that one corner and that you are able to control it by braking less (and perhaps sooner?) so that the "time to time's" that it doesn't happen is definitely because you are braking less?

 

To put it another way, are you certain that how hard you brake isn't moving your braking zone over some imperfection in the pavement?

 

Is turn five the only place this seems to be happening? Can you re-create these oscillations in other turns or in a praking lot?

 

 

That being said, the bounce seems to feel like a resonance that begins under hard breaking ...

 

What is the frequency of the resonance? Once per second? 2x/sec? 5x/sec?

 

It feels like riding down rutted dirt road in your car like it just picks your car up on the top of the ruts and theres not much you can do until you get the car slowed down.

 

OK, to my ear, from everything you have said...unless you are certain that are riding a smooth piece of pavement that does not go over the ripples...it sounds exactly like you are describling riding over the ripples and that the bounce is being caused by them. Owing to the fact that it only happens in one turn and your verbal description "car over ruts" ...ruts dug up by cars sounds like a description of ripples dug up by cars. So, are you sure you might not be riding over the ripples ... from time to time?

 

Picks your car up on the top of the ruts".
Now, if you are riding over ruts (or ripples), and "skipping" over the tops, I would say that decreasing the rebound damping to allow faster rebound and allow the wheel to track better or follow the ruts better might help. And perhaps a touch off compression as well. Assuming you can't find a smooth line first.

 

 

But...you said that you don't think the ripples are the cause.

 

So, if you don't think the ripples or pavement are causing the "resonance", I would isolate the situation and attempt to re-create it under some control situation. And as it only seems to be happening in this one corner ...from time to time. Maybe you are connecting it with the hard braking in your mind, and maybe hard braking does coincide with the the "bounce" and is intitiating it, but, maybe the braking itself is not really the root issue. And maybe changing the suspension isn't the answer at all.

 

Have you asked other riders about their experience in that corner? Did you talk to Dan Kyle about it? You said you trust him, but, it wasn't clear why you mentioned that. Did he tell you to back off the rebound damping?

 

Anyway, I would get really clear about the conditions, ie walk the track and look closely at the pavement and your RP's and brake markers to know well where you are, where all the bumps are ... and look for a smooth line. Amd ask other riders what they are doing. If you are confident that the suspension was set up to baseline correctly, I would look at that only after being really clear about the one corner that seems to be giving you trouble as the suspension seems to work fine everywhere else?

 

I mean...why only turn five? And why potentially sacrifice good operation in ten other corners to solve a situation in one?

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Hi Guys,

It is getting close to the start of track season. My first is at Barber March 1 and 2. I have an issue with braking in turn 5 which is the hair pin off camber coming down the hill. I have done many track days at Barber and seem to be able to handle negotiating the track given my level of experience. Early in my track day experience I load sided there but understand thanks to you guys the problem with that. My problem now or has been is that I tend to get into a bounce that I can't get out of from time to time depending on how hard I brake. I have gone off the track because of my inability to slow down enough to make the turn ( bouncing). This turn does have issues with ripples from car braking but I don't think that is the cause. I have Ohlins forks and shock and decreased rebound on the front forks two clicks from settings that were sent to me and I still get it. What could I be doing wrong?

 

After posting this I happened to look at other posts and came across an article where the instructor kept commenting "you are answering your on questions". I have been through three Keith Code schools and learned more in three days than I had for much of my riding life. I should use the principles that he teaches to solve the problem then I will have become much more aware of the bike, the track, and my riding ability. Thanks Keith.

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This turn does have issues with ripples from car braking but I don't think that is the cause.

 

Why not?

 

Does this mean that you believe you are avoiding the ripples? Like you have found a smooth line through the braking zone?

 

Or does it mean you are riding over them but you are familiar with what ripples feel like and what is happening does not feel like that?

 

Ripples in the pavement from cars can be pronounced or subtle. Sometimes they are more wavy than bumpy washboard. Sometimes there are other imperfections in the pavement that might not be noticed if one is focusing on avoiding the car bumps.

 

My problem now or has been is that I tend to get into a bounce that I can't get out of from time to time depending on how hard I brake.

 

"From time to time" and "depending on how hard you brake."

 

So, does this mean that it only ever happens when you brake hard in that one corner and that you are able to control it by braking less (and perhaps sooner?) so that the "time to time's" that it doesn't happen is definitely because you are braking less?

 

To put it another way, are you certain that how hard you brake isn't moving your braking zone over some imperfection in the pavement?

 

Is turn five the only place this seems to be happening? Can you re-create these oscillations in other turns or in a praking lot?

 

 

That being said, the bounce seems to feel like a resonance that begins under hard breaking ...

 

What is the frequency of the resonance? Once per second? 2x/sec? 5x/sec?

 

It feels like riding down rutted dirt road in your car like it just picks your car up on the top of the ruts and theres not much you can do until you get the car slowed down.

 

OK, to my ear, from everything you have said...unless you are certain that are riding a smooth piece of pavement that does not go over the ripples...it sounds exactly like you are describling riding over the ripples and that the bounce is being caused by them. Owing to the fact that it only happens in one turn and your verbal description "car over ruts" ...ruts dug up by cars sounds like a description of ripples dug up by cars. So, are you sure you might not be riding over the ripples ... from time to time?

 

Picks your car up on the top of the ruts".
Now, if you are riding over ruts (or ripples), and "skipping" over the tops, I would say that decreasing the rebound damping to allow faster rebound and allow the wheel to track better or follow the ruts better might help. And perhaps a touch off compression as well. Assuming you can't find a smooth line first.

 

 

But...you said that you don't think the ripples are the cause.

 

So, if you don't think the ripples or pavement are causing the "resonance", I would isolate the situation and attempt to re-create it under some control situation. And as it only seems to be happening in this one corner ...from time to time. Maybe you are connecting it with the hard braking in your mind, and maybe hard braking does coincide with the the "bounce" and is intitiating it, but, maybe the braking itself is not really the root issue. And maybe changing the suspension isn't the answer at all.

 

Have you asked other riders about their experience in that corner? Did you talk to Dan Kyle about it? You said you trust him, but, it wasn't clear why you mentioned that. Did he tell you to back off the rebound damping?

 

Anyway, I would get really clear about the conditions, ie walk the track and look closely at the pavement and your RP's and brake markers to know well where you are, where all the bumps are ... and look for a smooth line. Amd ask other riders what they are doing. If you are confident that the suspension was set up to baseline correctly, I would look at that only after being really clear about the one corner that seems to be giving you trouble as the suspension seems to work fine everywhere else?

 

I mean...why only turn five? And why potentially sacrifice good operation in ten other corners to solve a situation in one?

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Hi Darryl,

 

Suspesion was brought up, but in the 3 days you have been with us, have you ridden the brake bike? One reason I ask is while suspension can be a factor, the most powerful thing on the bike is the front brakes, and there is definite technique regarding their use. Back to first question, have you been coached yet on the brake bike?

 

Best,

Cobie

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Hey Darryl,

 

I'm sorry if my last post was a bit overwhelming and hard to follow. I was thinking out loud off the top of my head (in a hurry) and I didn't have time to trim it down to more 'bite size' pieces. I didn't mean to grill you or express doubt in your perceptions, I was just trying to cover all the bases at once in a single post and probably covering none of them well...lol.

 

So, let me see if I can do a better job of it here and keep it simple.

 

If you installed suspension components out of the box the way they were sent to you (from Kyle?) it might still be a good idea to have a local suspension pro go through it with you in person to make sure the settings are a good baseline for you.

 

And, if the bouncing is only happening in one turn (and nowhere else), I would get really, really clear about what is happening in that one turn before assuming it is a suspension issue.

 

Hope that helps,

racer

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Hey Darryl,

 

I'm sorry if my last post was a bit overwhelming and hard to follow. I was thinking out loud off the top of my head (in a hurry) and I didn't have time to trim it down to more 'bite size' pieces. I didn't mean to grill you or express doubt in your perceptions, I was just trying to cover all the bases at once in a single post and probably covering none of them well...lol.

 

So, let me see if I can do a better job of it here and keep it simple.

 

If you installed suspension components out of the box the way they were sent to you (from Kyle?) it might still be a good idea to have a local suspension pro go through it with you in person to make sure the settings are a good baseline for you.

 

And, if the bouncing is only happening in one turn (and nowhere else), I would get really, really clear about what is happening in that one turn before assuming it is a suspension issue.

 

Hope that helps,

racer

 

Hey not a problem on the response. I think one of the things that Keith tries to teach that is really an underlying them to his school is awareness. I was not paying attention and asked a stupid question. I will get on the braking bike in June and until then be more aware of what the bike is telling me. I can fix it. I really appreciate everyones comments and help. See you soon.

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Hi Darryl,

 

In my experience, there is no such thing as a stupid question. Asking questions is the beginning of all critical thinking and problem solving. I think sometimes the desire to 'not' be wrong (or fear of looking stupid) can cause people to avoid asking questions and get stuck. :(

 

Zen quote for the day: Ignorance is the beginning of all learning. :P

 

 

racer

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Hi Darryl, (had the name incorrect before).

 

What I had wanted to know was what you had been doing with the bars? If I recall, you have done level 3, correct? If so, there might be an application of a technique in there that will help right away. Let me know, we'll go from there.

 

Best,

C

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  • 1 month later...
Hi Darryl, (had the name incorrect before).

 

What I had wanted to know was what you had been doing with the bars? If I recall, you have done level 3, correct? If so, there might be an application of a technique in there that will help right away. Let me know, we'll go from there.

 

Best,

C

 

Hi Guys,

Just wanted to update this thread about the bounce I was getting. I had a two day at Barber this weekend and went out and worked on this corner. I think it was a combination of braking to hard and shifting into to low a gear. I started braking a little earlier, softer more even squeeze on the lever and carrying a more speed into the corner. I think this kept me from loading the front. I also bought a slipper clutch to help with the shifting issues. Thanks for the input.

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Does that mean you are no longer having the problem?

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Does that mean you are no longer having the problem?

 

Racer,

I no longer have the problem. I am sure that it was a combination of shifting to low and breaking to hard over ripples. I made a couple of changes to the bike, slipper clutch and less rebound on the forks. My changes were finding reference points for on and off the brakes that I could hit every time, smoother pressure on the lever and more speed into the corner.

Thanks to everyone for the input. This helped me to do some self evaluation and put the tools from school to work.

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I made a couple of changes to the bike, slipper clutch and less rebound on the forks. My changes were finding reference points for on and off the brakes that I could hit every time, smoother pressure on the lever and more speed into the corner.

Thanks to everyone for the input. This helped me to do some self evaluation and put the tools from school to work.

 

That's awesome! Glad to hear it! Thank you for sharing your data and results.

 

When you say "less rebound", do you mean less rebound damping?

 

I wonder if just using the new RP's, gear choice and braking technique would be enough without the damping changes.

 

What "shifting issues" were you having? How do you like the new clutch?

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I made a couple of changes to the bike, slipper clutch and less rebound on the forks. My changes were finding reference points for on and off the brakes that I could hit every time, smoother pressure on the lever and more speed into the corner.

Thanks to everyone for the input. This helped me to do some self evaluation and put the tools from school to work.

 

That's awesome! Glad to hear it! Thank you for sharing your data and results.

 

When you say "less rebound", do you mean less rebound damping?

 

I wonder if just using the new RP's, gear choice and braking technique would be enough without the damping changes.

 

What "shifting issues" were you having? How do you like the new clutch?

 

Racer,

I increased rebound damping 2 clicks, not much but just enough to see if I could make a difference. I think the reference points also helped me to know that I am applying maximum braking before the ripples and coming off the brakes as I enter the ripples. The shifting issue was me just being an idiot and not knowing what gear I was in.....Just sometimes catching to low a gear and getting the bike upset going down hill into an off camber turn. The slipper clutch is Awesome....Awesome.....Awesome. The clutch slips just enough that I stay out of trouble on the down shifts. I have been working on the throttle blip but sometimes I have an instant between blip, clutch release and back on throttle that is now a non issue with the slipper clutch. I hope to get better at this.

Thanks for your comments.

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I increased rebound damping 2 clicks, not much but just enough to see if I could make a difference. I think the reference points also helped me to know that I am applying maximum braking before the ripples and coming off the brakes as I enter the ripples. The shifting issue was me just being an idiot and not knowing what gear I was in.....Just sometimes catching to low a gear and getting the bike upset going down hill into an off camber turn. The slipper clutch is Awesome....Awesome.....Awesome. The clutch slips just enough that I stay out of trouble on the down shifts. I have been working on the throttle blip but sometimes I have an instant between blip, clutch release and back on throttle that is now a non issue with the slipper clutch. I hope to get better at this.

Thanks for your comments.

 

We might get you to think about clutchless downshifts at some point. Not everyone likes it, but for me it's easier, I don't have to use the clutch!

 

Regarding doing down the right amount of gears, there is something Keith told me (could be in one of his books?), and that was to count how many gears you go down for a turn. I've used this, and it's worked well, and pretty simple.

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Regarding doing down the right amount of gears, there is something Keith told me (could be in one of his books?), and that was to count how many gears you go down for a turn. I've used this, and it's worked well, and pretty simple.

 

That's exactly what I do. I remember "down three" or "down two", etc. In fact, if you asked me what gear I was in for a particular corner, I would probably have to stop and think about it and actually need to count through my shifts from memory starting at a reference like 6th gear at the end of the straight.

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Regarding doing down the right amount of gears, there is something Keith told me (could be in one of his books?), and that was to count how many gears you go down for a turn. I've used this, and it's worked well, and pretty simple.

 

That's exactly what I do. I remember "down three" or "down two", etc. In fact, if you asked me what gear I was in for a particular corner, I would probably have to stop and think about it and actually need to count through my shifts from memory starting at a reference like 6th gear at the end of the straight.

 

Yes and I should know that instead of guessing. I will be better prepared and have notes with information like what gear I am in for turns, reference points for braking and turn in to corners. I have learned a lot and hope to hear from you guys on new posts with other questions I have. See you on the next one.

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Regarding doing down the right amount of gears, there is something Keith told me (could be in one of his books?), and that was to count how many gears you go down for a turn. I've used this, and it's worked well, and pretty simple.

 

That's exactly what I do. I remember "down three" or "down two", etc. In fact, if you asked me what gear I was in for a particular corner, I would probably have to stop and think about it and actually need to count through my shifts from memory starting at a reference like 6th gear at the end of the straight.

 

 

Yes and I should know that instead of guessing. I will be better prepared and have notes with information like what gear I am in for turns, reference points for braking and turn in to corners. I have learned a lot and hope to hear from you guys on new posts with other questions I have. See you on the next one.

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.

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Regarding doing down the right amount of gears, there is something Keith told me (could be in one of his books?), and that was to count how many gears you go down for a turn. I've used this, and it's worked well, and pretty simple.

 

That's exactly what I do. I remember "down three" or "down two", etc. In fact, if you asked me what gear I was in for a particular corner, I would probably have to stop and think about it and actually need to count through my shifts from memory starting at a reference like 6th gear at the end of the straight.

 

Well, now I have a few things to work on in level 4....thanks

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