Wippersnapper
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Posts posted by Wippersnapper
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best way to start is by going to racetrack and see if you got anything on it... self-believe and confidence is surely needed, but it is not easy to become a pro-rider...
btw... I want to race professionally also. ( and so does thousands of other riders)... Riding and racing is the only element that works for me (too), but sadly it is not enough so I´ve better keep my day job for now
"if just could make a living racing motorcycles, that would be the coolest thing known to man" - K.S
and I totally agree.....
Yeah only 20 or so guys actually make a living off of it in the world right? I'm working on it and if I fail I will have to get a day job but the love for the sport will always be there.
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I have been riding for a while and want to start racing on the track. I am not sure that since this is not about racing that has happened that it is alowed in thise article but believe me it is heavily concerned with it. Many great formula one drivers have said that when they are having a good day or "going fast" (relative to other drivers) that they do notexperience things in real time. They are downshifing, stearing, and accelrating before, in, and through the corner before they ever even get there so that when they do it has already been done and they are through the corner. Sounds weird but I think that if you concentrate on something hard enough before you do it, it makes it a lot easier. So I ask, what is the proper technique for your feet going through a corner. I see a lot of the MotoGP riders repositioning their feet so that the front part of their foot is resting on the peg. I tried this a while ago and almost got my knee down on a bike I never thought possible. This works, but do many people use it?
My second question is that when you are going into right, hand corners and you use this sometime there has to be a transition from being able to reach the brake to not. This must happen before the apex so that you can take advantage of being able to reach the ground easier. I also see that in many right hand corners the riders have a few fingers on the clutch. Could this be because they can not use the rear brake and disengage the engine slightly resulting in the same output that tapping the rear a little bit would do? If you look for this is is rare to see them fingering the clutch out of lefties.
I have been studying these things so closely because one I think a lot can be learned from someone that is better than you (at anything) and two I can't find an article that talks about the finer points.
I have attached some pictures where you can see evidence of all of this (repositioned feet, fingers on clutch, etc...)
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Agreed. Sliding with feet on or feet off though is pretty much the same thing. I agree that there is a left foot bias in terms of taking your foot of the peg (balance and/or readjusting for gear issues). If you tivo races though there is a difference in the two - normally you can tell from upper body position. The slide issues often have some upper body repositioning whereas shift readjustment do not.
Feet up or foot out does not really make a difference when you are sliding as long as the lean angle does not get insane. The only issue is when you get the bike really low and there is no room for your leg/foot between the bike and the dirt and you have no choice bu to go foot out. I've always wnated to learn to slide the bike in and spent a weekend learing. Granted I crashed 10+ times and could not walk for 2 weeks - huge 20 inch bruise on my hip - and various other pains, but I learned to do it. The hip injury was actually helped since I could not move it the last few sessions I was forced to learn to slide the bike with my feet up/on the pegs. Go figure. I don't think I need to go back for the supermoto class - same thing but on pavement.
I'm working my way through level 3 and 4 and then have my eye on coderace - just fo rthe fun of it. Then maybe learn to wheelie. Maybe hit the offroad/supermoto thing after my 50th.
Sevral good points. I was just saying what you noted later, when the foot is stuck out in motogp it sin't going to help the slide rather than balance and is probably a panic reaction or for readjusting the boot. Like you mentioned the slides on street bikes are done with feet on pegs (98% of the time). Level 3 and 4 of the CSS school? That's great I am saving up for the two day at laguna. I think it would be wonderful to be humbled a bit when times are compared to professional racers on an internationaly raced track. 50th, birthday? How long have you been riding? I am 17 and am trying to get started racing, just a money issue right now, as most things are... Good luck with whatever part of motorcycleing hobby/career you decided to persue.
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It's a good thing there are people "racer" and others who are willing to give something back to the sport. It makes it better for the rest of us. Actually, anyone participating in these forum threads is giving something back by sharing their experience and knowledge.
I agree with you completely. Not to rain on any parades but can anyone recomend another good forum for racing motorcycles and/or getting started? I know this one is supposed to focus moreso on CSS so I was looking for another one to participate in also.
Racer,
That's a great description. I can't wait until I can get out on the track and to a school day so I can try being the best that I can be for a day with no worries of buses, tractors, gravel, oil, no runoff, etc...
It's a good thing there are people "racer" and others who are willing to give something back to the sport. It makes it better for the rest of us. Actually, anyone participating in these forum threads is giving something back by sharing their experience and knowledge.
Oldfart,
I agree with you completely. Not to rain on any parades but can anyone recomend another good forum for racing motorcycles and/or getting started? I know this one is supposed to focus moreso on CSS so I was looking for another one to participate in also.
I have riden a hayabusa (suzuki equiv) and it is so amazing to roll on at 4k rpm have the wheel lifet at about 6.5k and carry it until 10.5 or so. It's so much fun to ride but there is a lot of room for error with that much power.
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If I recall correctly, the GP-dirtbike thing is done on a dirt bike with the slick rear. There are schools out there that teach you how to slide just such a bike. I've been to one, which claims to have taught the Hayden brothers.
Sliding the bike through a turn is a function of speed and lean angle. On a dirt bike, on a rear slick, in say mud, it is much easier to break traction so you need less lean and less speed. It also hurts less when you fall off. I think the experience is probably good to some extent in getting you use to the concept of cliding and helping with throttle control. The problem bieng on the dirtbike you need to sit on the CG, which is not what you do on a street bike. You also are leaning at a lower speed so you are going the opposite direction (ie. sitting up on the bike), again different. The concept that you can learn to slide a 50cc bike with slicks in mud and not get hurt is nice in concept, but I could not walk for two weeks after I learned how to do it. Falling hurts and doing it 10x at 10-20 mph adds up. That all being said I can't slide a street bike. It is different enough in how you get to the lean/speed limit and different enough on how you deal with it that I can't get there on a street bike. Maybe after I finish LVL 3 and 4, I'll get closer.
If you really want to learn, go find a class. They are cheap and fun weekend events. If you don't buy into the 10-step program they teach to get you to "it" though, you wont be sliding anything. The 10-steps are to get you there and are artificial. Once you get "it" they tell you to forget how you got there and just remember "it" next time the bike starts to slide out from under you.
If you watch Rossi and Hayden closely, when they come in hot and the lean angle/speed result in the rear coming around, they drop the inside leg and go for a dirt bike style. That ends as soon as the speed is scrubbed. It is only lasting for a little bit. The rest of the corner etc. is pure street riding. The dirt bike training is only playing a role at the very beginning of the turn when they blew the entry speed thing. Noitce on most of those turns they also fall off the pace since a unctontrolled slide is nowhere near as good as brakes. Sliding the rear around the turn is a street thing, which dirt riding is not going to help with (other than having good throttle control and other basic functions.)
Ok I understand that it is different. I have seen videos of Hayden riding a supermoto motorcycle 9dirtbike with slicks) and the people he was racing with stuck out their foot to balance while sliding in a corner and he just leaned off the bike. I believe what you are referring to (the leg out pre-corner) sometimes is for balance yes but rarely. Whatch when they slide it big-time. They don't remove any body part from the bike because that is a loss of ability to control the bike. When they sick out their foot it is always the left one, it is to move the boot from below the shifter to on top so that once out of the corner they can shift. This is done because the boot is stiff and unlike riding on a road bike you sometimes cannon just roate your ankle to reposition your foot.
I agree with you though. Dirt racing is for experience in throttle control and practice controling slides.
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hey no problem, i like sharing my thoughts
i understand the horsepower thing. i couldn't seem to get my f4i to do it on dry, smooth pavement. although, if you can't force it, i say don't worry about it. it's nice to get comfortable with it just in case you do it in the dry, just so you won't freak yourself out.
another factor that i forgot to mention would be tire wear. if you've used a lot of tread on the sides of your tire, it will grip less. oh, not to mention lean angle. i can't do it in the dry yet either (on a liter bike) but i'm sure it's just one of those things that "happen" as you get used to the bike.
and those 125 and 250 bikes are all two stroke, i'm pretty sure, and you have experience with the peaks in power on those, so it wouldn't be a problem for you then. if you ever make it to the gp's, will you give me an autograph?
Yeah from my dirt track riding of a 125 and 250 I have plenty of experience with the power peaks. That is the best part about two strokes. I got to take out my dads RZ500 (two stroke street bike, gp replica) and that was really cool. I actually prefer sliding that because it is a lot easier to control and is shorter (only happens in the powerband). The length is nice but usually all you want is a little step-out for turning purposes.
My tread is pretty much brand new, I had to get a new set of tires for the rainy season up here. The bike is so much more fun to ride in the wet than the car is you know what I mean.
Yeah if I make it, just hit me up, that would be no problem lol.
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Other than some dirt bike riding in the early 70's I just started back on the street with a SV650 in 99. Now I have a Daytona 675, KLR650, and just recently a ZX14. I find that the more I ride, the more I get out of it and also realize how unskilled and ignorant I am. My riding goal is to improve my skill and knowledge and so far I am really enjoying doing that. I love riding the back roads in the mountains and the local twisties. If I lived in an urban area I probably wouldn't ride. Well maybe, but the fun factor would be far less.
That's a great outlook towards riding. Self improvement of skill. I know what you mean. I live outside of town and have to comute into town, the best part of the ride is the first 6 miles or so... before you get on the freeway or in town. ZX14? That's a pretty large bike for not having ridden for a while. WelL I guess you have been riding again since 99 which is longer than I have been riding but still, that's the mothership of bikes. How do you like it?
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On the street, I don't think the hip thing is a good idea. You don't want to move around too suddenly or anything because it can seem to get you in trouble quick, you're messing with the suspension as its trying to do its job. I think the action with the handle bars is dangerous also because that can lead to a sudden loss of control too. The smoothest way I've found is just with the throttle. I haven't done it on a track yet and I have a big bike, but I just roll on smoothly to get it to slide a little. Rough pavement, cold roads/tires, and wet conditions are the easiest to play around with it in. It has seemed easier for me to get used to the way the bike feels when I would do it in less-than-perfect conditions. I know it probably sounds stupid, but there was a left turn on brick that I would almost always step it out in when it was raining. It seemed easier to handle because there was a lot less to think about and I could do it at a lot slower speed. But no matter how wet it is out, it can still grab hold all of the sudden on brick, possibly resulting in throwing you over.
I would suggest trying on your bike like this so you can get used to the way the bike feels at a slower speed, and then try using just the throttle at the track when you get comfortable. I think throttle-only would give you the least amount of factors to think about while your doing it.
Also, I think riding in the dirt gives you a whole library of information you can use for the street. I mean, Nicky Hayden started out in the dirt, and look at where he is now.
Not to start any riffs but I am a Rossi fan. I think he is the best one out there but all of them are far far above us all. I wish to ride in 125, 250, or even the motogp class one day. Anyways I was inquireing about the dirt because I noticed that a lot of the riders in the past and present have a large amount of dirt track experience (Mamola, McDuin, Hayden, etc...) and I was thinking that perhaps background in that is vital to becomeing an excellent rider. I even think that supermoto experience would help because you are sliding the rear and practicing throttle control. I slide/spin the rear of my bike in the rain but would love to do it in the dry, except it is a few horsepower shy if you know what I mean. Thanks for the info.
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I think riding puts me in a higher level of consciousness. It gives me that feeling of giddiness when I started riding every time I learn something new or make a perfect line through succession of turns or even narrowly escape getting run over because I reacted quickly enough to get out of the way. Even all of the looks of jealousy and admiration from every bystander you pass. Plus, you can't ride wheelies in a car.
I could say the danger, but actually I feel ten times safer on my bike than in my truck.
Oh I know what you mean. Even though somtimes you realize that riding on the road is cheating death I feel more comfortable and able on the bike than in a car. I actually get more nervous on the freeway in a car, I hate driving on it... haha good stuff
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You may find this interesting, research on what it takes to be the best.
The first major conclusion is that nobody is great without work. It's nice to believe that if you find the field where you're naturally gifted, you'll be great from day one, but it doesn't happen. There's no evidence of high-level performance without experience or practice.
Reinforcing that no-free-lunch finding is vast evidence that even the most accomplished people need around ten years of hard work before becoming world-class, a pattern so well established researchers call it the ten-year rule.
James.
Well if a baby is born and is completly isolated from everything it will have a hard time jumping on a motorcyle and being excellent yes... Wether you call it naturally gifted or fast at learning there are some poeple that can practice less and learn more. These people usually aren't excellent at everthing, so what do you call it when it is extremly easy for them to progress through the ranks at something? I call it talent.
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Ok thanks. Yes I have a road bike as well and prefer to ride that but I like to play around in the dirt because it doesn't hurt as much to fall off (at least I think, I have not fallen on pavement yet). I read everything you said and was trying to think about it and realized that it is more of a reaction. At first I didn't think I was doing it right on the dirt (it is more or less the same process). Leaned over, start the slide pick up hte bike a bit while spining the wheel and when it is dry getting the oh so loved leaned over whelie. I only listed the hip input because I noticed that when really on the edge of traction, really really on the eadge, a little twist of the hips (reposisitoning of body weight) will cause it to slide. I will try to play more with the other techniques, thanks for the input.
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I was riding my dirtbike today (I know, some will say dirtbikes are Satan for riding style on a road bike but I say there are certain aspects that can positively transfer) and it was wet outside, my favorite time to ride. Where I ride there is grass and pretty much grass only. So I was riding my two-stroke leaned over in a corner and was playing with sliding the rear to stear the bike when I noticed a few things that I wanted to share here.
Is there a proper was to start the slide? There seemed to be many when the bike was so close to the eadge of traction. I practiced a few:
putting a quick little imput throught the handlebars turning into the corner, resulting in moving the rear suddenly and starting the slide
bilp the throttle and back off using less to maintain sliding/grip
throw the throttle open pretty agresively and go through the corner completly crossed up
come on the powerband while accelerating fast
and the most interesting one but duh, hip input. I could move or twist my hips to start the slide also.
Is there a proper way and the advantages of that?
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This is an article in which I want to encourage people to share stories, feelings, experiences that defines why they ride a motorcycle.
Mine:
When I ride I feel at home, almost as if it is my one and only home, never able to be my compete self elsewhere. From the moment I put my helmet on I can feel the change. I stand straighter, sudenly am alert of everything, then mount the bike. That's when the fun starts.
This is why I ride. -
I will keep this short because these replies tend to overlap one another in the advice that they give. I ride my dirtbike for a two reasons. One, because it is fun and two, because it helps develop a better sense of throttle control. Today, I rode in my backyard. My course only has a few turns and is on a grassy slope. It was wet today so throttle control was key. I was riding a 125cc two stroke so same power/on concern. The fastest corner out there is a slightly off camber left hander. I can hit it in 3rd gear and just blip into the power bnad before I have to let off but that was whiping the back end out each time. So what I did was keep it in the power band in second and while leanded over I was already in the powerband and could stear the back with slight variations in throttle input rather than these huge slides. This way ended up being faster in the end. Basically, be gentle with the throttle and be in the pb if you can during the begining of the turn.
~Wip
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Hello, I am 17 and want to race motorcyle professionally. I feel that I am in my element while riding a bike, it doesn't matter what it is, small, large, two-stroke, four it just feels right. I have no track experience but would like to race in AMA or perhaps in a few years GP. Where would I start? Any good sites i.e. craigslist.com for maybe picking up a bike that I can take to a track? Thanks.
~Wip
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Hi Thor
Wip said counter stear but he explained the opposite " if you are leaned over left and you loose the front just a little flick or twitch pushing the right handlebar/pulling or stablizing the left, should bring you back into control."
I hope that helped
Cheers
Brian
Hi guys, I guess what I thought coutner stering was was turning the handlebars one way and the bike geoing the other way. What I was trying to say was that if leaned over left you want to countersteer into the corner so that the bike picks up (from leaned over left to not so leaned over) onto a larger concact patch, thus more traction hopefully stopping the slide.
~Wip
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I would have to agree with a basic trend. I love riding my dads RZ500, even though it IS truely heavy it feels so extremly light and the two stroke power is so beautiful and unique. I feel most comfortable on my Honda Interceptor 1000 (1984) because I have put the most miles on it but it is so seriously heavy and fairly unstable at speeds above 130 mph. Out of recent bikes, the GSXR1300R is my favorite, it is light, has radial tyres, and sooo much power. It is also extremly stable at high speeds. I was cruising along once and just looked down and wow! I was going 110... woops, better slow down a bit.
I know this is limited to road bikes but I ahve to just say, if you ever get the chance to ride a Honda CR 250 dirtbike (two stroke) that was made withen the past 5 years, TAKE IT. Compared to my 1989 CR 125 it has a boatload of torque that peaks just about when the powerband starts. This means in pretty much all gears, moreso in 1st and second you just roll on and boom the front end jumps off the ground. Boing boing boing, no clutch at all. It was so much fun to be leaned over, flick the throttle, have the rear spin like crazy while catching traction and while still spinning a bit the front end lifts off the ground while still elaned over... simply amazing.
~Wip
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Hello GSXR600! What I have always read and done (mostly on a dirtbike) is that when you lose the front if you counter stear into the corner then it will pick the bike up onto a little bit larger contact patch. Now, you will drift out a bit but I think that that is better than a crash.
It doesn't take much, if you are leaned over left and you loose the front just a little flick or twitch pushing the right handlebar/pulling or stablizing the left, should bring you back into control. Another point, the stearing, I have found, likes to be pushed and not pulled, that is use the right bar handle to turn right and the left to turn left with the opposing hand to stabalize the opposing bar as it changes possition. ~Wip
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Yeah, motorcycles just feel natural to me. I can't wait to attend a CSS class and start racing some day. Thanks about the tip about the smoke, I will pay closer attention next time I start the bike. That makes sense (leaking/cold start) because the oil loss is not consistant. You can ride it 200 miles and it will not burn more than 50ccs and a few days later (casual use in between) it might take 3/4 a quart! Thanks for the help.
~Wip
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In a nutshell, the bulk of street riding is done on the crown of the tire. Even if one spends alot of time in the twisty's, unless you are riding ONLY in the twisty's, the percentage of wear will be greater as you move toward the center of the tire. Even a tire with "good" tread to pass state inspection can have horrid riding characteristics. Essentially, the profile "squares off". If you can imagine a cross section view, the smooth rounded transition from straight up to leaned over becomes less smooth or gradual over time. The zone from a little leaned over to alot leaned over becomes an abrupt change. Hence the feeling of falling over. And, IMO, also the sudden shift of stresses to the edge can overcome traction. This is my theory based on experience and observation. So, this is why I ask how worn the tire might be. If there is deeper tread on the side than the crown...maybe you'd feel better on a new set of rubber.
BTW...when I used the word "planted" to describe bias ply tires, I mean more solid or connected than the typically "squirmy" feeling of radials fifteen years ago. During the process of leaning over, one lost the feel or sensation of the road and connection while the tire deformed and reshaped to the new lean angle. Sort of a feedback limbo that could be a little scary while flicking into a fast tight corner and not really knowing what the front was gonna do till it did it. It took a little time to get familiar with these "new tech" tires. I imagine that motorcycle radial technology may have progressed since then. I can't be this old.
In any case, there is nothing inherently wrong with your bike being OLD-er per se. There are many things that could affect handling that could be cleared up with some typical high mileage maintainance and TLC. Many things, like tires, that will pass a street or even race track inspection can still be worn enuf to need replacing. Steering head bearings, rear monoshock and linkage bearings, swingarm bearings to name a few. Not to mention the more common fork oil and chain/sprockets combo. It's amazing how all these lilttle things will add up to turn a wonderful bike like an Interceptor into a shyte handling machine. Just some thoughts. I don't mean to imply that this is your case, but, I am constantly amazed at the number of riders I meet who don't even think about maintaining their machines beyond an oil change, so, I just thot I'd use your thread here to get on my soapbox about it.
Cheers.
Something else that just caught my attention as I read your original post again...do you mean to imply that your front tire is a radial and your rear is a bias ply???
Um...I don't know what the gurus might say these days if radial tech has come a long way, but, IN MY OPINON, due to drastically different performance characterics, this would not be desirable. Unmatched tires in any way is never a good idea in my mind. But, someone else may have a different opinion re the bias rear/front radial combo.
No no no, they are both bias ply. I was just concerned about the rear, I have not been sliding the front much at all, so no worries there. I undersand what you are saying about the edge on the tyre and that might be exactly what it is. I have put 5k miles on these tyres and most of that was a long ride down to cali/oregon twice so I could see where the wear would be a lot more in the center.
About the maitnence, my dad used to be a mechanic so the bike is well maintained, new rings and cams at 45k (the bike now has 95k). It is my first motorcyle besides a 125cc dirtbike (two strokes rock), and being a begginner I tried to ride it at first like the dirt bike using massive clutch slippage to get it going fast, faster and what do ya know, a burnt clutch. Also, shifting was new, being new to motorcycles (this all was about a year ago) so I believe that in one of my clutchless shifting adventures I bent the 1st/2nd shift fork. We took the bike apart and found out that the shift fork was slightly worn but what falls out the bottom but a pice of the shifter drum... ooppss. Luckly my dad could only find an entire transmission on ebay and had ordered it because trans parts are no longer available for this bike, so we went throught all the gears and forks and put the ones with the least wear back in. Anyways, in short, thanks to my dad I have been through the entire engine (with exception of the cylinders but big whoop), cams, crank, clutch, valves, all the wireing and cooling devices, etc... Right now the bike needs a new chain and it is burning oil. We have replaced the shifter seals and countershaft seal but it still leaks/burns. So a new set of heads are waiting in the garage (again picked up from e-bay). I/we think the problem is the valve seals but with a whole head just sititng there the plan is to re-cut the valve seats, replace the bearings, etc.. then pull the engine out and sort-of "hot-swap" the heads out. Anywho, there is a little maitnence story for ya.
~Wip
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No, no confusion at all. I can see how comfortable the rider is with the bike effects the overall performance. Yes, my tyres are worn but not completly. So what I think you are trying to figure out is the sensation I was feeling as I was leaned over? As far as I can tell I was not sliding really or emm scrubing that part of the tyre, the whole tyre had be gradually broken in by myself before any serious riding had taken place. I am going to try to take some picture of myself in a hard corner and see if I am close to the ground or if my body position and style would even allow that on my bike. Thanks, everything helps.
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Hello again! I have an old 1984 Honda VF 1000 Interceptor. Being a more "out-dated" bike the rear wheel is not a radial like all the newer bikes. I have ridden my dads GSR1300R with the radial rear and have felt a major difference. It was in the corners, I immediatly felt like I could lean the bike further over and it was SOLID when going through the corners. I did not try to touch down on a bike that was not mine but this planted the seed of a naggin question deep inside my head. Is it safely possible to get your knee down on a bike with the old style tyre? I have looked at my rear and it is pocked all the way to the sides on both. Also, when I have been fairly far over (what I think might be the max of the bike) it seemed to want to fall over on its side. Not the side of the tyre but completly just fall over. I have been able to pick it up with the throttle when this happens but is this the bike riding near/on the eadge of the tyre or is it a sensation I am just unfamiliar with? Thanks.
~Wip
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Gosh, I thought I had it set up to recieve e-mails upon a reply but alas it did not work or I had the settings wrong. Anyways, thanks for the input. I made this post a few weeks ago and (in my mind) have improved in riding quite a bit since then. I have figgured out that you guys are correct. I was just downshifting to initiate the slide for fun and it was just until the engine revs and rear wheel revs matched. My '84 Interceptor does not have enough power to spin the rear comming out of a corner on dry pavement so I slid pre-corner just for fun. Now, I have gotten a little better at using the bake break as mentioned to slide the rear but that is more-so when leaned over just a tad and I don't find that as helpful or safe at the speeds that I want to be safe at. The clutchless up/down shifting just smooths out everything but I can't manage to perfect the downshifts very well. I always seem to make sure that I blip/shift down and try to match revs to make it smooth and at the moment that seems to be taking more time than just droping it down a gear or two with the clutch. However, when in a corner and leaned clutchless has become the prefered. Now I am just rambleing about my passion... Thanks guys for all the advice and recomendations that help me become a better rider.
~Wip
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Hi, I want to ask everyone a question. I have gotten into a habbit when approaching a tight corner. What I do is brake hard so that the rear end is light and then down shift a gear or two fast and the rear breaks away sliding just a bit before it catches and builds revs so that the engine speed and the rear wheel speed match. So while the rear is sliding I kind rotate it to the outside of the corner (left for a right hand, right for a left hand) and so that way the front is where I want it and the bike is already pointed towards the outside/exit path of the corner. Is this a bad habbit and/or is this ok to do if you want to go the fastest way around a corner? Thanks
This is why I ride.
How Do I Start?
in School Questions/General Discussion
Posted
Thanks man, I'm working on the financials right now.