isolter
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Posts posted by isolter
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As I have been getting faster I have found this to become a bit of an issue, whenever it occurs I put my attention on my entry speed and my desired entry position on the second corner, and focus on exiting the first turn so that I am lined up precisely where I want to be for the second turn! It usually feels like I'm taking the first turn to slow but pays of when I enter the second turn!
sorry for taking the thread a bit off topic here!
I've noticed the same. The most demanding thing beside all driving technique is to stay focused, get one's mind "ahead" of the bike, get yourself tuned for the next corner whilst you're driving the existing one. Sometimes I have focused 100 % to ride a particular corner and after that noticed I "blowed off" the second one. For example at our local area there's a track with a 180 deg "U-corner", downhill; the next one is >90 deg DR-turn; it's so easy to get extreme exit-speed from the 1st one and notice at you've blown the 2nd...
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But don't ya think that your wrong line and lazy turn probably prevented you from being able to get on the throttle as soon as you should have?
First of all, thx for the great posts again!
I agree with this. The right line and quick turn would have allowed me to crack on the throttle sooner...
Btw, I just finished two days at track and I was working with the basics e.g. turn point and throttle there. I was driving appx 75 % pace of my ability, tried to be relaxed and controlled all the time. I did not charge any turn, I rolled off early, gentle braking concentrating to set the speed and let off the brakes smoothly - turn in - and get on the gas asap but smoothly again. The result: I made only 1-2 secs slower laptimes compared to previous aggressive style (hard on the gas - hard on the brakes...).
I'm still afraid of my front but during the past days at track I had no problems at all. Guess I need to train the throttle even more, I still tend to be quite rough with openings which can ruin the entrance of next corner...
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You're welcome.
When you've crashed, was it at the begining, middle, or at the end of a session?
Bullet
1st at the end of the session; guess I was getting tired and same time speeding up 'cause session was OK, going well otherwise
2nd just in the beginning; guess I was too confident and the "rhytm" of the track wasn't clear for me during the first laps (even it was a track I know well)
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You've probably got too much tyre compared to your forks, I'd suggest. Even WSS bikes don't have slicks on a 600. Have you tried putting a tie wrap around the front fork leg to measure how much travel your using? Additionally, the progressive fork springs aren't ideal for hard use, and you'd definitely be better with linear springs for you weight, and get the forks revalved.
Final question for you my friend, how much weight do you carry in your arms? A bit, a fair bit? quite a lot?
Bullet
Hi! Thx for comments! I really like this board, this seems to be "alive" and relevant discussion going on...
The reason for slicks on my 600cc is they are cheaper than DOT-tyres at our market. Since I'm not racing the "official" Superstock -class, I'm allowed to use slicks as well. This is pure economic background for my hobby...
I have a tie wrap around fork and it shows there is 15-20 mm left of travel lenght, depending on track and other circumstances, pace I drive, other traffic on circuit and so on...
Regarding the weight balance on my arms, I try to load the clip-ons so little as possible, according to TOTW-lessons. Normally I manage pretty well with this, I crab the tank with my legs during hard braking and I try to take most of the upper body weight with stomach- and backmuscles. As mentioned, "normally" this works quite fine but when I'm getting tired I loose the control slightly and in the end of the session I have more load on arms, I've noticed. So the answer you my friend is: A bit in the beginning of session but a fair bit, sometimes even a lot at the end of the session.
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I think you may be misinterpretating Keiths words here. When does Keith suggest you should be getting back to 60/40, with the throttle rule? What are you as a rider typically doing before this time? In this time, where is more of the weight? Does being of the throttle move the weight to the front? Does trail braking add more or less weight to this?
I also wonder what bike you have, what setup, and what tyres and pressure you're running ? I suspect that the really fast boys have super sticky tyres?
Bullet
I think I got the point. When analyzing my loose of the front, I can find the following reasons: 1) wrong line; the cambered corner turned into flat and I was still leaning too much => lost the front grip. 2) lazy turn; I wasn't steering quick enough considering the speed I used which lead me out of the best line to bumpy surface and because of lazy turn I need to use much more lean so the front lost the grip. Actually neither of these cases were related to throttle.
On the other hand, couple of times I have cornered "very fast" related to my skills which actually scared me but remembering basic techniques I just flicked it into the corner and rolled on and boy, I made it despite of my fear. Great feeling indeed!
FYI: I run R6R, stock forks and shock (loaded Sag 30 mm F / 28 mm R) YEC Kit ECU with quickshifter, Pirelli Diablo Slick, pressures 1,95 bar F / 1,80 bar R (warm pressure). Been wondering whether it makes sense to update the forks with a Cartridge Kit (Ohlins?) with linear springs? The stock springs are progressive and the pre-tension is almost on hardest setting in order to have the Sag on right range... The stock works fine on normal circumstances but in case I make a mistake, would a better fork setup "save my ass" - literally speaking??
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I've been wondering the front tyre grip for a while. According to the TOTW-books there should be appx 60R/40F weight balance when cornering, which is to say slight throttle opening as per "Throttle Rule". From theoretical and mechanical point of view that makes sense as Keith writes...
However, after several discussions at the pit with the "fast" guys they are working _against_ to 60/40 -rule. They tend to load the front as much as possible e.g trail braking, body movement forward etc in order to load the front and make it "bite" better.
This is confusing me. I've lost the front twice (not with trail braking) and I've tried to follow Keith's rules but this conversation with faster guys is really bothering me. They do exactly opposite and with good results (fast lap times, no crashes). I try to follow TOTW and I crash; that's confusing...
What do you think? Any opinions?
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The first things I do when riding a new track? Which direction and what's the lap record (sorry ... very old joke). Actually, before I even get to the new track, I try to find information on the internet (track diagram and video footage), a lot easier now days.
If I can, I usually find someone to lead me for a few laps, or tag behind someone on their warm-up lap as they exit the pits. So this usually gives me a few laps to find out the characteristics of the track, and a gentle introduction. Also to keep in mind, I'm not going for the lap record in the first session (honest). So, I'm pretty much traveling around at about 75% of effort. Giving me plenty of change from my $10. If survival reactions are kicking in, then I need to back off a little more.
How do I know that I don't have a Reference Point? I experience a waiting-for-something-to-happen feeling, or I get a searching-hunting-apprehension feeling and I don't get much change (if anything) from my $10 of attention.
The only bad Reference Point, is none at all! Any Reference Point is better than none.
Personally, Reference Points are to be either on the track or just off (some tracks have distance markers to the corners for braking). As mentioned previously (and in TOTW books) there are plenty of things you can use as Reference Points. Not all of my Reference Points are absolute (exactly where I want), so it maybe a few feet from my Physical Reference. My criteria for a good Physical Reference Point is that it is easy to see/find from a distance, and not take too much of my attention to re-locate and I can consistantly use it.
Example at 75% effort (as I need enough attention left over to have some awareness) : Turn 1, very fast right hander after a long straight. Locate the second last
braking marker (a sign with '100'), locate a turn point (start of outstide curbing); downshift at braking marker, turn at the start of curbing about 1 foot from the edge of the track. The result was the entry speed was OK (no Survival Reactions kick off). But was off the gas, the bike going wide and had to correct with a steering change. The turn point was way too early. Next lap, keep braking marker and keep the start of the curbing, but, now I'm going to turn 4 feet past it. So my Physical Reference Point is still the start of the curbing, and my turn point is 4 feet past it. The result is I'm still turning in too early. Next lap, keep braking marker, but now turn 8 feet past the start of the curbing. But, as I approach the corner, as I pick my turn point (8 feet past the start of the curb), I can see there is a Physical Reference Point near where I want to now turn (the start of a skid mark), this is now my Physical Reference Point. So I keep my Physical Reference Points until I can find something better.
Cheers
Absolutely the best explanation of RP's and how to really use them. Thanks a lot!
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Hi there,
The nearest schools we have to Finland at the moment are in Sweden and also we should have some schools in Lithuania. The Swedeish dates are on our website.
All the best
Andy Ibbott
School Director
Europe, Middle East, South Africa
Hi!
Thx for reply, Sir! Perhaps I'm missing something but is there a fault at webpage? When I click superbikeschool.co.uk - Schedules/booking -> there is only South Africa and UK dates available. Can't find anything else??
Best,
-T
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Welcome to the forum, isolter.
Nice pictures. Your body position looks pretty good. Maybe try to get your head lower.
Good luck with your studies this winter. The books are excellent. However, there is no substitute for real live coaching and CSS does it best. I recommend you skip some track days and use the money to travel to a CSS school near you. Perhaps in the UK?
BR,
racer
PS - What are you looking at in the last picture?
Hi!
Thx for comment! Nice to follow this forum.
I noticed last season (2008) there was couple CSS -school at Sweden which is at neighbourhood. However, I have not noticed any CSS trackday in Sweden at 2009 calendar?! Perhaps those dates will be fixed later? (Hope someone from Cornering School could answer this.)
br,
-T
PS: I'm looking toward the main straight where I've supposed to accelerate from this particular corner. Perhaps there is already another guy which I'm trying to follow...
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Hi from Finland!
First of all, thanks for an excellent forum! There's lot of valuable information here; nice to read your posts pro's. Secondly, please forgive my mistakes in English since I'm writing from abroad...
Well, I'd like to share some newbie thoughts and excperiences here. Hope someone learns something from my story...
I got my first opportunity to participate a track day this spring 2008 and after that I was totally "hooked up" with this wonderful hobby. Got to get there again, again, again...
The result was totally 20 track days at summer 2008. I tried to learn as much I could by myself, also following other guys as well as discussing with them. I think I've learned something, at least lap times were getting better (e.g. lower) and body positioning was also going better and better. By the end of the summer I tried to drive quicker/harder all the time and result was I crashed, of course. After crashing I've had time to think & learn from my mistakes. I bought those excellent books TOTW I & II as well as " The Soft Science of Road Racing Motorcycles" by Mr Code and boy, how much new things I've found from those books. I fully recommend! Btw, after studying these books, I think I know why I crashed; I did all the mistakes the newbie can when he's "going fast": I was charging the turn, noticed I'm going "too fast", rolled off the throttle, crabbed the handlebars too tightly, turned in lazy... - you name it - and result was I lost the front wheel and lowsided. Believe me, it was quite funny to read afterwards those things from the book and notice "That's exactly what I've done (wrong)".
Well, the winter has come to Scandinavia so now there is time to think and do the homeworks. Can't wait for next summer and get onto track for testing those right methods which are mentioned at Mr Code's books.
I try to post here couple of photos of last summer. Would love to receive some feedback from you pro's...
Thanks & wish you all the best!
br,
-T
Direct links unless those IMG-codes won't work:
http://i438.photobucket.com/albums/qq106/i...08/080725_1.jpg
http://i438.photobucket.com/albums/qq106/i...08/080725_2.jpg
Lets Talk About Low Sides...
in Cornering and Techniques
Posted
Some thoughts which might help you to analyze the situation...
"Software"
- Did this happen at end or beginning of session and track day? How's your body position and control? Too tight on the clip-ons perhaps?
- Wrong line? Lazy turn; Too much lean? Bodywork contact with asphalt? More bumpy line??
- Charging? Too late on the throttle? Too much load on front tyre?
- Any changes in conditions: rain drops, dust, oil and/or coolant from other bikes? Washers/nuts whatever..
- Smooth or aggressive control??
"Hardware"
- What tires? Too much speed and lean for the tire? Normal DOT, compound DOT (like Supercorsa) or slicks? Tire pressure?
- Fork setup? Wrong SAG: Too much pre-tension or Too little pre-tension? Too much rebound damp?