vio
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Posts posted by vio
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This is a video I found on Youtube the other day, and the way he crashes is strange to me. It doesn't really seem like a normal lowside or a highside.
My best guess is that he was too hard on the brakes and was off the gas for too long, overloading the front tire. It doesn't seem like he went in too hot, or got too throttle happy. It could also have been a tire temp problem or geometry problem as well.
I was just curious as to whether you guys had any other thoughts one what could have caused it.
The crash happens at around the 2:05 mark, and there is an interesting bobble at the 1:05 mark which is also strange.
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This is the #1 skill for me because it allows me to focus on the important aspects of a corner (braking marks, correct lines, smooth throttle transition, etc).
Firebeast, I get your answers, wouldn't mind a little more specific, but makes sense.
Vio--you mention hanging orr, but below you say it allows you to focus on the important aspects of a corner--is one of those things more critical than hanging off?
CF
Good question.
I wouldn't say they are more important than hanging off, but to me if I am not comfortable with my body position when entering, completing and exiting a turn it really throws me off and keeps me from focusing on the other aspects of the turn as i should.
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How do you rank the skills in order of importance---what's at the top and why?
Anyone can chime in on this, like to hear what newer and less experienced think as well as the more experienced.
Best,
Cobie
To me, it is being able to hang off while being securely 'fastened' to the bike but still being completely comfortable
OK, why would this be the #1 skill for you? What do you get from this that so important?
This is the #1 skill for me because it allows me to focus on the important aspects of a corner (braking marks, correct lines, smooth throttle transition, etc).
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How do you rank the skills in order of importance---what's at the top and why?
Anyone can chime in on this, like to hear what newer and less experienced think as well as the more experienced.
Best,
Cobie
To me, it is being able to hang off while being securely 'fastened' to the bike but still being completely comfortable
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SO basically what you saying is that i will find it difficult because of my height? Im 6ft3inch i think, 1.89m in total.
Depends on how cramped you are on your bike (my pegs are placed a bit higher) and how flexible you are. I am not flexible whatsoever, i'll tell you that. I dont know how those MotoGP riders stick there leg out perpendicular to the bike, my leg just doesn't bend like that
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Its definately the street that i am reffering to. We have this very nicely tarred double lane'd one way and double laned opposite way shortish mountain pass where one can get your knee down i assume.
Its here where i have practised. Also on my way to work and home there is this piece of road with 3 gorgeous fast turns where i am sure one can get your knee down, but i think it will take a brave man to do this.
As you know i ride everyday with my bike. Ive only once ridden on a track.
Also, could have a lot to do with flexibility. I, myself, am not very flexible and have longer legs so i am a bit cramped on my bike. My buddy who is more flexible and has shorter legs got his knee down at the track much more than i did. He actually went through his entire left knee puck in one day where as mine still have plenty of meat left on them.
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Hey Taras if that is you in your Avatar then without out a shadow of a doubt that is my body position to the Tee. Except i really dont get down that low i think. Ive allways ridden with my body hanging off the side of the bike, allmost Jamie Witham and Ben Spies style but that is just probably in my mind.
The following is how i take a corner, after reading Twist 2 and watching instructional vidz on Youtube.
Let say left hand corner:
1. Ass cheek off and my butt crack is aligned with the edge of the seat closes to the ground.
2. Allmost standing on both my feet, this helps with switching from left to right easier and keeps the weight of the bike in the centre, not front or back.
3. WHen i switch over from left to right or coming out of the turn i use my knee that is touching hte tank to pull myself back into the seat. the bike then does not wiggle about.
4. my hands are super light on the bars, many a time have they moved about while im on the power and i let tehm do what they need to do.
5. i push my knee out but dont force it, ive pushed it out so much one day that my muscles on the inside hurt. THat just did not seem right.
If you look at hte picture to the left of the California superbike school logo on the top of the page then i dont even put my head on the tank like that guy is doing. My head will be allmost next to the handlebars. I sometimes adjust my upper body slightly to get it into that position closer to the road.
So i just out of waht i explained cannot understand that i have not been able to touch the road with my knee.
As Cobie asked earlier when leaning off the bike i kinda stand on the pegs and my hands i can take of the bars and i will not fall over or forward. This i know for a fact cause after every great turn i think about how i entered it and how i exited it. Was i following what Keith Code said or did i do my own thing.
Is this on the street or at the track?
I personally have never touched my knee down on the street. I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that on the street you are confined to a narrower segment of road than you are on the track (where you can use a lot more space) and you probably aren't going 'all out' like you might at the track. However, at the track i did not ride all that differently than i do on the street and was able to touch my knee with relative ease and without really trying.
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It actually was pretty gently each time. It just seemed to skim the pavement throughout the turns. Felt great!
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Im still scratching my head as to how low and fast i must go to get my knee to scrape?
Do you have any pictures of yourself riding that you could post?
Honestly, i wasn't trying to touch my knee when it happened. I've never touched my knee on the street, only at my trackday.
I know people who race who hardly ever get a knee down and are not affected by that fact at all. Shawna Aron who retired two years ago from WCC and Am600 in Canada has posted on other Forums that she rarely touches a knee.
YRMV.
Kevin
Also, like i said, there were quite a lot people who were riding a slower pace than I was who were dragging their knee constantly, waaay more often than i was. I think they may have been focusing too much on dragging the knee and leaning the bike way over than on what was really important.
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Im still scratching my head as to how low and fast i must go to get my knee to scrape?
Do you have any pictures of yourself riding that you could post?
Honestly, i wasn't trying to touch my knee when it happened. I've never touched my knee on the street, only at my trackday.
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You nailed it on the head with the inside foot. Your boot was probably open toe by the end of the day. Consistency also. You've got to try to keep your body down more. Your BP is otherwise very good. You won't see many riders at a trackday with BP like that.
Lol it wasn't open toe but it definitely could use a new toe slider!
Thanks for the feedback though, i really appreciate it.
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Just by looking at the photo I can tell you that one of two things is going on. First let me say that his BP is otherwise great. His spine is angled just a little more than the angle of the bike, and this is something that takes some riders a VERY long time to achieve. Some never do. I love using Mladin for an example here. Top AMA rider who's body is crossed up in every shot. Great job, Vio.
Otherwise, by the angle of the shot I can assume that either his foot is in the wrong position (not tucked in enough), and it will scrape before his knee, in which case he needs to pull his foot in and stick his knee out more, or he just doesn't have to have his knee down there. The angle of the pic makes it hard to tell either way. He could, by looking at the pic, just have to get his butt off the seat a little more.
It's used by riders who are really in sync with their bikes to tell them they've just about reached the limit of their bike. You can see some riders, like Rossi and Lascourz (?) doing it a lot. You'll be able to see some riders in MotoGP are 55 degrees leaned and don't have their knee down. They know how far out to have their knee, and scraping it tells them that they've max'ed out their lean angle (63-65 degrees for Pedrosa).
Most stick it out to gage as they go. They'll let it hang, and when it grabs, it'll give them an idea of how much more clearance they have. Knee down can act as a gage for lean angle, and helps a rider use it as a crutch, so to speak, in certain instances.
Also, as mentioned above, it never gets old. After a long hiatus from the track when I start dragging knee again I can't help but giggle under my helmet. Wait till you have to buy new ones.
http://resources.motogp.com/files/images/x...01.original.jpg
Thanks for the compliments Hubbard, i appreciate it!
You nailed it though, i definitely need to pull my foot in more. I noticed that my foot position is decent in most turns, but on turns where i have to switch directions i lazily hang my foot off more than I should, causing it to scrape probably more than it should. I got better at this during the day, but still need to improve
I tried to be very consistent with my knee. Kept myself from reaching with my knee in an attempt to touch the ground. It worked well for me, as I would consistently touch my knee down in the same spot in many of the turns throughout the day. I am not the most flexible of guys so my knee may not stick out quite as far as some
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Been dying to ask this question. I just read Voixtremes post and well saw this pic of him.
http://img29.imageshack.us/i/dsc9157large.jpg/
why is it that his knee is not touching the ground. Im sure its because he's finished turning(accelerating allready) in this instance and sure he can get his knee down but ive ridden low in corner leaned off the bike, knee stretched out and nothing no contact. I have seen pics of guys who's bikes are at far less lean angle but theyre knees are down on the asphalt.
how come?
The usual answer is that usually that the riders body position isn't quite right. Most riders that first learn to hang off in an attempt to knee down have a tendency to a) lean off the bike to far or
they rotate around the tank. When you do the latter, it actually turns your knee downwards and into the bike rather down at the floor. I'd put reasonable money on the former being the cause myself, though without seeing, its hard to really tell.Bullet
Honestly it just felt more comfortable for me to hang off 'tighter" to the bike in that turn because of its speed. I am not sure if that is the proper technique or not though, it just felt best for me in that particular turn to keep everything tucked in.
do you normally knee down, but didn't here? I'd buy that by the way, not everyone does, or needs to.
The more important to knee down is really what it's used for, apart from looking absolutely fab in those pictures on your desktop or Wall to impress all your non biking mates about how cool you are!
Bullet
I had my knee down consistently all throughout the day, just never in that turn. Was actually quite proud of myself, got to where i was using it as a gauge in the turns and would expect it to touch down at the same spot each lap. (it was my 1st track day
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Id imagine it scared you. Hopefully ill get there some day.Im sure its not a problem. Dude your form looks good to me man, did you get your knee down that day?
My knee touched down pretty regularly throughout the day. I began to use it as my gauge as to whether or not i was doing the corner 'correctly'. I knew if i didn't touch my knee in some of the corners that I wasn't doing them as well as i had been consistently.
Scared me the first time my knee hit the ground! it didn't feel as smooth as I thought it would
You will. And it will just happen when it does. Then you'll probably yank your knee up like i did and think "what in the world was that!" Then you'll realize it was your knee and its supposed to be like that
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Been dying to ask this question. I just read Voixtremes post and well saw this pic of him.
http://img29.imageshack.us/i/dsc9157large.jpg/
why is it that his knee is not touching the ground. Im sure its because he's finished turning(accelerating allready) in this instance and sure he can get his knee down but ive ridden low in corner leaned off the bike, knee stretched out and nothing no contact. I have seen pics of guys who's bikes are at far less lean angle but theyre knees are down on the asphalt.
how come?
The usual answer is that usually that the riders body position isn't quite right. Most riders that first learn to hang off in an attempt to knee down have a tendency to a) lean off the bike to far or
they rotate around the tank. When you do the latter, it actually turns your knee downwards and into the bike rather down at the floor. I'd put reasonable money on the former being the cause myself, though without seeing, its hard to really tell.Bullet
Honestly it just felt more comfortable for me to hang off 'tighter" to the bike in that turn because of its speed. I am not sure if that is the proper technique or not though, it just felt best for me in that particular turn to keep everything tucked in.
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Im sure its not a problem. Dude your form looks good to me man, did you get your knee down that day?
My knee touched down pretty regularly throughout the day. I began to use it as my gauge as to whether or not i was doing the corner 'correctly'. I knew if i didn't touch my knee in some of the corners that I wasn't doing them as well as i had been consistently.
Scared me the first time my knee hit the ground! it didn't feel as smooth as I thought it would
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Been dying to ask this question. I just read Voixtremes post and well saw this pic of him.
http://img29.imageshack.us/i/dsc9157large.jpg/
why is it that his knee is not touching the ground. Im sure its because he's finished turning(accelerating allready) in this instance and sure he can get his knee down but ive ridden low in corner leaned off the bike, knee stretched out and nothing no contact. I have seen pics of guys who's bikes are at far less lean angle but theyre knees are down on the asphalt.
how come?
I tended to stay more tucked in on that turn because it is quite a fast turn taken at full throttle so that could be the reason for my knee not touching. Not really sure though.
I noticed that a lot of the guys i was passing quite easily were dragging their knees much more often than i did. Maybe they were too concerned with dragging their knee and not concerned enough with everything else?
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I think it looks good man, although i think you should have posted it here
######! Didn't see that forum
Could one of the ops move this thread for me or delete it and i'll re-post it?
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Here's some pictures from my trackday at Jennings GP on 6/8/09. It was my first track day and it was a ball!
I know that i need to get my inside foot tucked in more, I didn't realize i stuck it out so bad until i saw the pictures. I was scraping it a lot more than i thought I should be and now i know why
Looking forward to seeing what advise you guys could give me regarding my body positioning.
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Hey vio,
What this chart means is that the damping characteristics are very linear, which in a nutshell is what you want. The sharper the bump you hit, the more damping the shock provides, which ultimitely helps keep the tire in contact with the road. Also, there is a ratio of 1:3 compression:rebound damping. This ratio is a hotly debated topic, and will vary based on the ratio of sprung/unsprung mass, and the demands you are putting on the bike.
However, understand that you are only looking at the "low speed" to "mid speed" damping characteristics of the shock. Low speed damping means that the rate that the shock is compressing (measure in in/sec) is not very high, which in the real world would correspond to small bumps and undulating road surfaces. Pot hole type bumps which create much more velocity in the suspension and can easily reach rates of up to 25in/sec, and at that rate the damping characteristics may change drastically based upon piston and valving design.
What you see on your chart looks great "on paper," and this is how engineers design suspension, based on what they see on a shock dyno. In real world applications damping rates may need to be altered slightly to work optimally for a specific bike or track. But, this is a great place to start from.
Thanks for taking the time to explain the chart. I really appreciate it!
Rode the bike for the first time today and the shock feels great so far. Can't wait to take it to the track
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I recently sent out my OEM 2006 Kawasaki ZX-10R rear shock to Traxxion Dynamics to get it re-valved and re-sprung. I received it back yesterday and they did an excellent job cleaning it up and making it look brand new. Hopefully i'll be able to get it installed this weekend.
They also included a Shock Dyno chart and I was hoping someone on here may be able to translate this thing for me because it makes no sense to me
Here is the link to the dyno chart:
I could barely even read it. I'll see if Mike or Will want to (or have the time) to look at this.
CF
Thanks. I am just curious to know what it all means
Although i think it roughly translates to "your shock works better now".
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I recently sent out my OEM 2006 Kawasaki ZX-10R rear shock to Traxxion Dynamics to get it re-valved and re-sprung. I received it back yesterday and they did an excellent job cleaning it up and making it look brand new. Hopefully i'll be able to get it installed this weekend.
They also included a Shock Dyno chart and I was hoping someone on here may be able to translate this thing for me because it makes no sense to me
Here is the link to the dyno chart:
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Unfortunately I haven't even done Level 1 yet
Just love this forum for it's technical approach to problems that actually matter
I do hope we get you to one, sooner rather than later
There is a skill that Keith is training now (in Level 2) that is not in any of the books yet, and totally sorted out blind turns for me, like night and day.Good point you brought up though, not everyone nails down what they do and don't do well, w/out some real help.
Best,
CF
Reading through these forums has helped me a great deal with my riding capabilities. Easily the best forum I have found for those serious about improving their abilities and skills
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Vio--got it, drive is good. What would you like to improve?
CF
Biggest thing i need to work on is entry speed on blind corners. I sometimes have a tendency to 'freeze up' before dropping into a blind turn, which doesn't do anything but cause more problems
Blind turns, quite a challenge. Did we get you into Level 2 yet?
C
Unfortunately I haven't even done Level 1 yet
Just love this forum for it's technical approach to problems that actually matter
they rotate around the tank. When you do the latter, it actually turns your knee downwards and into the bike rather down at the floor. I'd put reasonable money on the former being the cause myself, though without seeing, its hard to really tell.
What Caused This Crash?
in Cornering and Techniques
Posted
I think he is beginning to accelerate, but it doesn't seem to me as though he does it too much and it seems smooth.