hobot
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Posts posted by hobot
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Gosh, I thought I had it set up to recieve e-mails upon a reply but alas it did not work or I had the settings wrong. Anyways, thanks for the input. I made this post a few weeks ago and (in my mind) have improved in riding quite a bit since then. I have figgured out that you guys are correct. I was just downshifting to initiate the slide for fun and it was just until the engine revs and rear wheel revs matched. My '84 Interceptor does not have enough power to spin the rear comming out of a corner on dry pavement so I slid pre-corner just for fun. Now, I have gotten a little better at using the bake break as mentioned to slide the rear but that is more-so when leaned over just a tad and I don't find that as helpful or safe at the speeds that I want to be safe at. The clutchless up/down shifting just smooths out everything but I can't manage to perfect the downshifts very well. I always seem to make sure that I blip/shift down and try to match revs to make it smooth and at the moment that seems to be taking more time than just droping it down a gear or two with the clutch. However, when in a corner and leaned clutchless has become the prefered. Now I am just rambleing about my passion... Thanks guys for all the advice and recomendations that help me become a better rider.
~Wip
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Boy oh boy pilot GWalker did you ever ask a loaded question.
I think you got your best answer above about the use of
C/s to get it leaning and thereby turning and just leave it
where it feels easy to hold as long as you like your speed,
traction and line. BUT depending on that big bad black
thing's traction state, the bank/grade of the track and for sure
the wind you may have to diddle the front to the next steady
state of ease. What is so neat/fascinationg/disconerting/gleeful
to me is that bikes go thru transitions of handling/steering.
First handling state is "straight steering" when the rear tire is
mostly vertical, 7-9 mph in parking lot example [or in fast
transitions at almost the ton durring the phase rear is passing thru
near vertical in violent direction changes]
Next phase is when rear steering begins to rule by its leaning action,
about 10 mph to over sound barrier, as long as rear stays planted and
is not spining much nor skipping out much... the front tire must then
swivel to match the rear's commands, as when body steering hands off
OR the bars can be brought into play, to help the rear rule the roost,
by inducing more lean, called [a misnomer to me] "countersteering".
Speeds above 65-75 hinder body steering alone, as wheel gryo forces
become significant enough to resist the free swing of the forks, to match
em to the rear's lean. Same thing with trying to body steer
with ANY steering damper involved/interferring, as terrors or physics
will stop that foolishness. Gryo forces do not effect handling or
line in any detectable maner but does increase the force needed
to change front wheel aiming and the ease to flick the bike as
speed increases. It just makes you work harder.
That's about all there is to it if you stay below 110% tire use.
But if you seek the looseness Master Code speaks of riding vintage
tires but on new compounds OR find your self on slick stuff OR put
enough power down the front is light or even lifting OR in states the
bike is saved from a lowside by a jerk up into highside posture,
THEN you will pass thru phases of C/s vs S/s and back again.
Its similar to turning into the direction of a slide on a car.
Durring this flit thru the C/s v S/s transition [which really means
leaned vs vertical rear tire states] there is an instant where
you should actually be leting bars go so the forks can jib over
on their own in a timely just the right amount, way faster
than a pilot can perform reliablely. You do have to kinda catch it
though or over in a highside ya go.
Futher featutes to explore once into the speed and loads
range tires feel greasey:
A goodly spining rear tire will weather vane by gravity downhill.
An off slope track especially wet/sandy, rear may want to walk off
beside you towards hellward side. If you got room and want to keep
the acceleration going you just S/s abit or ALOT! so rear
stays more vertical and its thrust still aims at your line even as
bike drifts and looks cockeye'd. Looking down on a rider as his
rear hydroplanes out as he leans to turn, he can back off or he can
S/s towards the rear's slide and ride on it grining big time.
Centrifugal tangent force can be used to get a spining rear pointed
where you want it too but must be planned for and broken loose
abit before the apex by great help of bar C/s to lean it over far
and then great gobs of guick S/s as you hit apex and let rear
hook up for the leap out. Sorta flat tracker style but
way sharper jerky'r guicker over with gone. Rear suspension
must be full loaded going into this so you can control the
angle of rear the instant it regrips. If theres a new turn right
then let it highide right on over and Volia next instant
bike has transitioned again so that 1st S/s becomes C/s
and you didn't even move the bars. Wonderfully weird.
Increasing throttle in turns likes more C/s input to hold a radius
trailing throttle in turns prefers less C/s to hold a line.
Turning going up hill, more throttle raises bike and requires
more C/s, when rounding a down hiller, more power lowers
bike therefore less C/s for same radius as the uphill example.
Wind blowing from inside corner lifts and raises bike lean
so more C/s to compensate right up to the point the
bike will lift off and skip sideways a foot or more which
can be caught if you just hold the same steady state C/s/lean
you had on lift off and let the forks occillate on touch down
while you try to hold her steady and not try to actively compensate
otherwise, just act like a damper. Not for racing but if caught
out in storm front in Mt's wind may win no matter what.
Funest deal is to make every corner act like a decreasing
radius off canter turn, harder and harder lean, C/s and power
till quick S/s to save it and flick the next way. Yummy to the tummy.
As to dampers, my own personal opinion now is the less the
better and to me mainly implies a bad set up or poor bike design.
I find gusty winds the most valuable use for them and on
rough roads that jerk the bars entering or in exiting turns.
Also there is a whole world of difference between a damper
that has a limited radius of action and the ones that restricts
the whole fork range. The faster you want to change
direction or make corrections the less desireable a damper
becomes up to the point of flat limiting bike and rider
performance and preventing otherwise possible saves. damhik.
Safe fast playing y'all.
hobot
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Hey ho yo'all,
I've been bitten so bad by the cornering bug I can't hardly sleep.
I am in awe and fascination of CSBCS's various topics and practioners.
I'm a newbie to racer lingo and have some dropouts of details on
following all the info so bare with me on my stumbles on what
I'd like to state and publically ponder on. My short time on limited #
of M/c's though has been very rich in rather extreme conditions with
hard fast lessions I'll share and proablely provoke with, though
not out of disrepect but because this stuff IS a deadly serious but
TOTALLY gleeful addiction to me and I find similar insights being
touched on or ridden well on here. The door was open, I'm a sick
sick puppy and seek to cure or spread my illness
So many factors so many corners... Its winter so please shoot
me down in flames if ya can get close enough to throw a
ember in me spokes.
My basic tenets: matter does not occupy same spaces at once.
energy is not lost just transformed, everything is meant to flow
from fuel to ideas.
full traction is make or break digital not smooth at max use of it.
all bikes have bounce back karma, good or bad, learn it, at slow speed.
rear steer/lean rules when it really matters belive it or bad juju.
front merely keeps nose off dirt when not using rear fully.
extra traction snatches are ontap even when tires are squealing
and grinding but only in thin slivers of time to apply and let recover.
almost crashing from a lowside to a highside is the fastest way
way to turn if you can enter turn so hot under power the front
won't hold before the apex.
nothing turns sharper than a skiping outrear, EXCEPT
a skipping out front which is me big #1 Taboo. Period!
funnest turns are not so smooth as digital overcomings of tire
grip between transitions of balanced states, kind of a cheating
to get traction losses over and done with quickly to get back
to the launch program by cutting the corners into sharp straight aways.
when able to make and break rear out at will run the of mill corners
feel like canyon wall riding delights as lean and G's apporach that.
m/c's go thru steer to countsteer tranistions and back with lean,
speed, power, grade and bank changes. airplane like, as each input
does more than one thing at once, non linearly too yahoo!
If ya got to break best get it over with first not later
or dog gone it ya's back into depending on that meek front limiter.
Oh btw, fastest way to stop, gulp, if need be, is fully locked up tires
sideways at belly scraping angle. Done right like a skier on edges ya'll just
pop right up stopped, with many great poundings in the chest too.
Best sensation is disapearing striaght thru coccyx into a skipping rear patch.
Lean angles, if at loads less than making hot tarmac as loose as
a pebbled surface then I have nothing to add just carry on as
you are, but at apporaches and follow though rates that begin
or overwhelm front traction, either by power input making the
front light/lift, so the rear skips on around or by pure glorious leaning
over, then that big ol' knee bone just flat gets in the space.
Spining crossed up is one way with less lean but wastes time,
tire and traction yet is a fall back reserve if goofing up or hazard
changes the plans.
Ever see a riderless bike self correct with jerks and twitches
as it runs on down the track? Ever see a thrown rider recover
and ride out an impossiblely jerking twitching steed? Yes,Yikes,similar.
Gryo force increases bar's resistence to change front tire direction but
it don't effect handling otherwise. Jumping 4 lane hwy at about 60
wiggling the spining front and waving at gap jawed cagers or steering
hands off turns by lean just fine only to 70's convined me of this non issue.
Front must be free, so not to resist but to assist the the rears lean,
That is key to allow low to highside crash steering antics.
OH, don't never gun a hot rod bike nor tap its rear brake
while in flight or yo'll get a test of instant inertia and attitude adjustment.
I bow to the scope and scale and outrageous explorations of
your Master Code. My one brief exposure has allowed me to finish up
my own flight envelope exceedings. BUT how do you sleep when
the vivid dreams are replaying fast zoom in videos straight into
rock faces at apexes right up to the edge hitting full torque band
throwing it down on both sidewalls till scaping and nailing it harder to
break free and just jet ski its tail into an erie steady state into
the clam eye of a hurrance just before the next storm wall hits...
again and againandagain...
hobot
Pre Corner Slide
in Cornering and Techniques
Posted
I salute Kieth Code's bravery to allow me to break barriers
into center of gravity pivoting turns, prior to apex let offs
It takes thrust and traction to turn hard, brakes are for
saves not going in harder. The only time to use rear
in a turn is if the trail braking save is too late or hits
Gravel and bike suddenly lowsides, STAB the rear like
you were SOMPING your foot down to hold bike up like
a flat tracker, then get off it so enuff resultant hi side
instantly resets ya back to level to get second chance at
some serious undivded one vector stopping straight up
and inline like a stoppie stunter.
One other rare occassion of rear brake helping the front in
panic stops is to LOCK both at once and spin bike totally
sideways to motion and stay on em using both side
walls to resist tarmac or pile up loose stuff off track.
LIfe and death barrier riskers may develop this instantly
but some practice on bicyce or atleast forethoght helps
to realize bikes can twist on Center of Gravity, besides
just at front or just at rear... so>>>
Axioms to phantom phantastic phases
To turn one must cause a force to act towards the center
of the turn, its radius line, like a rock swung around your
head. Books call this an acceleration vector, as its got
two componets, its direction and its force.
Tires and torque supply the force and best force occurs
about 10% tire grind. Less than this is not even in this
disscusstion, more than this is what scares or upsets us.
Cycles go thru series of steering phases, depending on the
angle of the rear and the resistence of wheel and crank
sfaft gryo forces. Up to human jogging speeds, straight
steering of front aims the rear to bring rest of bike along.
Gryo force becomes significant at human runing speeds.
Turning or leaning a gryo 90' to its rotation makes it
develope opposite forces to resist this change very fast.
So we lean into turn radius to overcome this. This is easy
to do up to horse race speeds, by mere leans of body, but
only If fork is not trapped by a damper so free to just dolly
wheel, it just naturally begins to self countersteer.
Once into fast bird flight speeds, gryo force gets too
strong to overcome very fast by mere butt shifts so we
start relying on assisted counter steering of front tire off center
line to allow bike mass falling over to assist aginst gryo's
resistence to changes of angle. Yet this gryo resistence
to change of angle gives a cycle another dimension of
handling over 3 or 4 or more wheeled conveyences.
All the above is just to help get REAR's thrust aimed towards
tangent of the turn radius. If powered over 10% grind along
its axis it begins to divide its traction potential in two
directions at once, which don't add back up to a one way
only use of traciton buget, so rear can slide, until you let
off spin out power, which means slowing down the fun or
it can get sideways to line of travel till traction stops being
divided and it hooks back up and on over in worse cases.
[below only valid on essentially LEVEL surfaces please]
Further conflict arises d/t counter steering is aiming front
away from center of turn and tending to drop front as rear
powering out tends to rise rear, up to point the frame
twists and springs. A skilled pilot can fight this conflict,
easeing in more and more countersteer lean aginst more
and more rear thrust until gryo force simplely tips bike
over thru its midline CoG, so may lever off both tires evenly.
Generally bike occilations over tax one end or the other 1st
but loosing rear out from under is way more forgiveable than
front slip outs.
To cut to the chiances, funnest way in and around is to load
the front the least possible, one way is get into best
accelerating gear and about where the early birds are 1st
braking, [or rear braking to get sense of balance for this]
nail it for best acceleration >>> right up to point
of apex flick over, so as lean lowers tire grip, speed and
power is already enough your butt pressure can swing out
rear as if it was on Gravel, but just add more power if lazy,
or more countersteer tip out, if power alone wasn't enough
to get the rear loose so you can swing it at will YET
also loose enough still able to resist/control its swing too.
In this fun way to pre-pare a slide for max turn G's, you
must spin the bike on its vertical CoG before you get to
apex, so only a short fast skip of loss of thrust the whole
way around, go in so hard the rear is lowsiding the bike.
To save this low side, must re-transition to straight steer.
This both resists rear's lowside by the hi side force and
will aim front back into radius for final leap out of apex,
just as decreasing a radii as you can stand the burn out
dounut at hi G's. Not a long lazy flat track affair.
Traction must be treated/creasted as a digital on/off level
to pull this off, slide too far or not enough no fun, but slide
you will if you are seeking limits, till it feels same as a
a flat tire, hi wind gusts or Gravel path antics.
hobot