prand
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Posts posted by prand
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What is the reason you're waiting to slide over after braking and down shifting?
"brake > downshift > slide > 1-cone > count to 1 > turn in"
Since this was a practice day, I didn't need to wait to slide over, but that's what I've done in the past because I'm usually braking pretty hard going into T1 and I was supporting my body with both hands. Should I slide over before braking?
Paul
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Cobie,
As requested, I'm reporting in after a practice day at the big track at Willow. First of all, let me say that I have spent way too much time just trying to go fast and getting by on guts and a "feel" for the track. I've also spent too many practice sessions trying to put up good lap times and not enough breaking down what I was doing out there.
So this time I went out there, determined to slow down (that's not easy, you know) and pick my RPs, POTs, and turn-in points. Well, I did succeed in slowing down, but I'm not sure how much I succeeded at the rest of it. I had trouble locating RPs. Maybe it's just that track -- I don't know. On T1 I decided to turn in later, so I braked at the 4-cone, downshifted at the 3-cone, and slid over at the 2-cone. Previously I would tip it in at the 1-cone but I decided to count to "one" after the 1-cone then turn in. The first time I did this, I went wide and had to roll off. I hadn't turned in sharply enough to match the later turn-in point. On the next lap, it worked to perfection: brake > downshift > slide > 1-cone > count to 1 > turn in. Because I was carrying more speed, I had to pull on the outside of the tank pretty hard to keep the bike on line but it was beautiful. I didn't find an RP but I did find a POT -- the 1-cone followed by a count of 1.
It was also very windy yesterday. At one point I was going down the end of the straight-away, about 6 feet from the right side of the track when a gust of wind blew me to about 2 feet from the edge. Sheeee-it. I also had to tilt the bike slightly to the left while going down the straight just to keep going in a straight line!
Next came turn 3. Same problem. Lots of skid marks and none of them very useful. Again, I would brake, downshift, slide, and turn-in. I used the 1-cone again and waited until just after the cone to turn in. The point is that I had a specific reference to use as a baseline (the 1-cone) so I could make a SMALL adjustment.
Turn 4A is really a straight shot up, then you swing wide and get ready to chop down through 4B, so I was looking for an RP to turn in for 4B. Coming out of 4A, there's a line due to a surface change that I like to cross to make sure I'm high enough before entering 4B but I still needed to know where to turn in. I saw what looked like a diagonal line that kind of points towards the apex and I kinda used that but didn't have too many chances to work on it late in the day.
Turn 5 I tried taking as a double-apex for the first time. I would clip the rumble strip early, drift out a few feet, then turn in again so I can hold the exit to T5 tight. You need to do this so you can get your turning done as soon as possible for T6. T6 is a right-hander with a crest and you want to be as straight up as possible. Coming out of T5, the track goes uphill on the way up to the T6 crest, so I tried to get my turning done there to take advantage of the berm which acts like banking. T5 has a could of black lines (skid marks?) that criss-cross right about where I want to turn in, but I didn't get as specific as I wanted.
T2 and T8, as far as I can tell don't really have turn-in points. I just pick the distance I want to be from the inside of the track and turn when the track turns, then steer with the throttle. T2 has a small apex on the exit, though, and T8 goes into T9 which can be gnarly. I once dragged my swing arm on the rumble strip going through T9 (Yamaha's have that lower piece of the swing arm that hangs down).
By spending time looking for RPs, I was looking through the turns less. Normally this is bad, but I figure this is a part of FINDING RPs. Once I've found them, I can then spend much less attention on them, see them quickly, then get back to looking through the turn (as part of the two-step method).
I also learned something about body position. Before, my inside thigh would get tired. This time I kept telling myself to be light on the bars, and when I did, I felt like I should be off the bike more. So I did. I felt the bike get more vertical right away, but I noticed something unexpected. Instead of holding my body weight up with my thigh muscles, it got easier because it was more like sitting on my heels like you do when you're squatting. I was using less muscle on the inside leg, pulling more with the outside leg, and hanging off more.
One question for the coaches: I brake first then downshift while I'm braking. I've always done it this way. But in ToTW it says to downshift then brake. Seems to me that if you downshift first, you're rolling off the gas and slowing before you brake. Doesn't that take away a little speed you could otherwise maintain by staying on the gas a little longer and getting right onto the brakes? I feel I would be giving away a little speed by reversing the order.
Thanks guys,
Paul
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That's true. And if I understand the mechanics of it properly, cracking the throttle open will cause the front forks to settle, but you must gradually apply more throttle while decreasing your lean angle(rolling the throttle while standing the bike up). If you snap the throttle open, it causes the forks to extend, thereby widening your line, and you could go off track, or in extreme cases, highside. Anyone please correct me if I am wrong.
My understanding is that you want to get on the throttle as early as possible. This can be before the apex, but you want to crack it on gently and roll on smoothly. If you do this, you may have a small slide but not one big enough to cause you to have an SR and slam the throttle shut (THAT will cause you to high-side). Also, cracking on the throttle puts roughly 60% of the weight on the rear tire (that has a bigger contact patch) and 40% on the front (smaller patch), and it allows the forks to operate in the middle third of their movement range (ideal). If/when you slide, you should either hold the throttle right where it is or back off a tiny bit. The bike wants to correct itself -- your job is to not get in the way of this happening.
Paul
(I am not a coach - YET)
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Buy the SV650. It's a great motorcycle and awesome learning tool.
I've heard the same -- great bang for your buck. But I heard (no personal experience here) that the front gets squirrely and moves around a little under heavy braking. How would you fix that? With a stiffer (billet) triple clamp?
Paul
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I attended school at VIR and I was interested in finding out what settings the GPR Dampers and kept on.
It depends on the track and your suspension set-up. Basically, you want it set as low as possible, just high enough to avoid tank slappers. Dampers should not be used to mask suspension set-up problems. I turned mine up until there was no headshake -- 2 clicks above zero. If I had to turn it up any higher than that to get rid of headshake, I would assume something was wrong with my set-up.
I have an R1 and I had serious headshake problems when I was running Dunlops (the rear tires grow in diameter at speed, at least they did a couple of years ago, maybe not now). Turning the damper all the way up didn't get rid of it, but once I switched to Pirelli's it almost completely disappeared. Don't get me wrong, Dunlops are great tires. They were fantastic on my ZX-9 but not on my R1.
Paul
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2. Under Armour--a lot of guys like this. Wear long sleeve, slides better in the leathers. Some wear similar type shorts too. It's better in the hot than cotton.
Ditto. Under Armor slips and slides easier inside the leathers and prevents binding. Don't leave home without them.
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I am doing the Silverstone circuit in a little under 2 weeks and I am very nervous (huge understatment by the way !).
I have been reading on the forum for a couple of weeks now and it seems that bikers are going to improve their skills for Track Days ... i just want to know how to go round a corner faster and safely; I have never done any track days and have been deristriceted just over 6 months and i didnt get out a lot before that ! i have done a bit more riding over the past 6-8 months but not a lot at all. My fella bought me this for a christmas present as he knows how nervous (and rubbish) i am at cornering at the moment.
I got all the kit i need think I just need reassurance that im not going to look like a complete berk and it is for people like me as well as more experienced riders ?
Advice is cheap -- that's why I'm willing to offer it.
Seriously, all of us are nervous at times -- the key is to not let the nervousness stop you. You'll be glad later. Paul
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For sure when pushing it TC (throttle control) takes more attention. One rule that doesn't get as much notice is TC rule number #2 in Twist 2. I've started paying more attention to this aspect lately, both when and how.
I'm gonna be mean and let you guys find it
C
"Throttle control rule number two: in any fast entry turn, calculate the roll-off as carefully as you would a roll-on." (p.30)
I have been focusing on turn in and will work on braking next time out. I had been worried about tucking the front so I was hesitant about trail braking into the corner. I watched the AMA races this weekend and paid close attention to the use of the brake in the turns. I can see to be fast, trail braking is a must. So I guess turn in and trail braking will be something I will have to work on.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought TC rule #2 applied to those sweepers where you don't need to get on the brakes. Just roll off a bit before rolling back on. No?
Paul
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Yes, James "JR" Brown. I should prolly, one of these days, change my log on signature.
Are you racing at Willow? Or track days? What kind of times are you doing?
Yes, I raced a year in novice and a year in expert, but I took last year ('07) off after a couple of guys died in races (Sept '06 and April '07). Freaked me out a bit, and I've been doing track days and WSMC practices since. My best was a 1:31, but I'd bet I'm faster now. I'm going to "Streets" on April 27. Maybe I'll see you there?
Paul
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Why do you think that is so?I will also admit that I'm personally faster on a 600 than a 1000.Paul
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Fears just come bubbling up to the surface.
Bikes have a way of doing that.
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Is there a way one can feel for rear traction, specifically on corner exit?
Yes, when the rear starts to come around. Sorry, but I'm not aware of any method that does not involve the rear sliding a little (coaches, please speak up). I think the whole purpose of "standard throttle control" is to SLOWLY apply throttle on the exit so that you can experience a little slide while avoiding a big slide that will cause an SR (Holy sh*t I'm gonna die!) which will make you snap the throttle shut and high-side, pitching you into the weeds.
Previoulsy I let the rear squirm around a bit but that was on pilots and was quite easy to do, since changing to a better tyre I can use a lot more throttle out of corners which sort of makes me wonder how I can feel if the rears going to break loose.Surely there is a safer way to notice signs of rear grip!
In my limited experience, the Dunlops tend to hold tighter but break more quickly whereas Pirellis give me small slides that serve as a better warning.
Paul
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Here's the question: when you corner aggresively, what single technique do you pay the most attention to? Steering (quickly)? Throttle control? Viusual skills? Body Position? What ranks top for you?
Cobie
I'm sorry to say that the technique that I worked on the most is "when in doubt, gas it", but what I NEED to work on is corner entry precision. Picking RPs so that I can nail my turn-in point, corner entry speed, lean angle, etc. It seems to me that if you nail the corner entry and execute standard throttle control, you will have yourself one heck of a great turn! Is that right? Did I leave something out?
Paul
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Hi Lucky,
Great to have you on the site. The "track thing" IS as good as everyone says, probably even better on a Brutale.
Track prep for the school is easy. Just show up with good tires and we'll take care of the rest. If your riding with a regular track day company, most require you to prep your own bike. That usually consists of the mirrors being removed and all the glass / plastic lenses taped up. Easy stuff.
Hope to see you there,
JR
2big,
Sounds like you know the drill. You a coach?
Paul
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I have been riding on the street for about 12 years off and on,
Well, sheesh, I'm glad you took a little time off to eat and sleep.
Paul
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You're right, there is a lot going on there. For sure we can work on this. A side question: do you use gp shift? I find it easier in general, and there specifically.
C
I use GP shifting. Although I don't know anything about Barber, I find GP shifting really useful when you want to upshift coming out of a left-hander. Upshifting between T5 and T6 at Big Willow is a perfect example. Pushing the shifter down helps initiate my body position change whereas trying to dig your left foot under the gear level (where there isn't a lot of room anyway) gets your body twisted the wrong way for the upcoming right-hander (T6). This is especially important here because you want to get your turning done early coming out of T5 so you get can take T6 as straight as possible.
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If you were to sit in a rocking chair with both feet off the floor, but resting on the curved end of the legs, can you rock the chair by pushing on the legs with your feet?
Er, uh, that would be a "no". I'm not arguing with you, but it sure FELT like it was peg weighting. Perspective is a funny thing. As a skier, one example of perspective I like to use is a snowy mountain: If you're at the bottom looking up, you might think, "Hmm. That would make a nice postcard," but if you're at the top looking down, you're thinking, "Holy sh*t, how am I going to get down alive?!?" It's the same mountain...just depends on how you look at it.
While riding thru turn 2 at big Willow it's important to get locked onto the bike with your legs. The turn is so long, it's easy to start pulling on the bars trying to hang onto the bike while hanging off. Same with turn 8, but just a whole lot faster.
Here's a trick I use when riding thru turn 8. I talk to myself. "light on the bars" "light on the bars" "light on...."
Turns 2 and 8 are so long that I think muscle fatigue plays into it after a while. In other words, when your thighs turn to rubber, you might be inclined to do something on the bike that isn't good. That's why I think you have to be in good shape for Big Willow.
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OK, here's the question: What's the best handling bike you have ever ridden (we'll stick to road bikes for this), and then why? I'm interested to see what you come up with.
Cobie
My 2004 R1. Race Tech re-valved suspension, high rear-sets, kevlar front brake lines, billet top triple clamp, slipper clutch, and other goodies. I have a flowchart of what can go wrong during a turn and this bike doesn't do any of them. Maybe that means I'm just not going fast enough, but the R1 is a piece of work. I tried to upload the flowchart, but clicking on the "Insert Image" button does nothing.
This bike does EVERYTHING I tell it to do -- the only question is what I tell it to do. I hate to say it but it's pretty obvious -- the weak link here is me, not the bike. -
Hi Prand,
Missed this thread, just now getting to it.
The stomp grip is to help you anchor on the bike, so that you are solidly anchored either hanging off (or not).
Countersteering is what will turn the bike, change it's direction, not pressure on the pegs. Pressure on the pegs has almost no effect.
There are other threads that cover that, let me know if you need a reference on them.
Best,
Cobie
Chief Riding Coach
Sure, please send me the links. I remember one turn in particular where I was accelerating through a sweeper (T2 at the big track at Willow) and found myself drifting to the outside. I then stomped on the inside peg and the bike carved a tighter line. The reason I bring it up now is that I THOUGHT the peg weighting was what pulled me in tighter but in fact maybe I was countersteering and didn't realize it.
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Hi Paul,
OK, I see you are already posting (excellent), and welcome to the forum. Please do come and say hello to me at the Streets when you come out, and lets see about getting you on the NO B/S bike, I think you'd find that useful.
Best,
Cobie
I've already tried it, but I'd be glad to again though. Keith had a free day years ago (around 2001) at Moffett Field near South San Francisco that he cooked up with Doc Wong. I was there and I tried the NO B/S bike. I remember thinking that I was smarter, that maybe other riders couldn't do it but I could. WRONG!
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super60,
Since you have Stomp on the bike use it like you mean it. The inside of your leg by the knees will rub down to raw leather from using them.
Keith
Keith,
I have tried to pull the bike over into turns using roughly equal pressure on the inside peg and the outside leg on the tank. Is that right?
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From my experience, there are some turns that you really have to trail into to maintain your speed, Turns 3 and 9 at Fontana are good examples. In general, I try not to, but once in a while I don't see a way around it.
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Hello everyone,
My name is Paul and I've raced at WSMC for two years: one year in novice and one in expert class. I'm going to attend the class at Streets of Willow on April 27th and I'm really looking forward to it. I know I'll learn a lot.
Paul
Track prep for the school is easy. Just show up with good tires and we'll take care of the rest. 
This bike does EVERYTHING I tell it to do -- the only question is what I tell it to do. I hate to say it but it's pretty obvious -- the weak link here is me, not the bike.
The Most Difficult Corner On The Planet
in School Questions/General Discussion
Posted
I've heard of guys in the midwest who are so desperate for turns that they'll just keep going around the freeway cloverleafs. Man, that's desperate!