stow
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Posts posted by stow
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I would say the most important aspect of fitness for riding would be the following:
-Endurance
-Core Strength (abs, back, etc)
-Leg Strength
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For sure technique in the end is more important, one can wear themslves out by poor/unknown technique.
One of the best things that I got out of level 1 and 2. I physically tried to man handle the bike around the track and is probably the main reason I try to stay in shape. I was wearing myself out every session at trackdays, but not anymore.
Shane
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What level of fitness is required to ride a bike at an Advanced trackday pace versus MotoGP? I would say they are very similar as far as fitness goes. I believe most of the training the MotoGP guys are doing is geared towards weight loss and endurance. I could be way off, but fitness will never make up for bad technique. There is a an instructor at the Corner Speed School at VIR named Steve Broadstreet. He is a big guy and absolutely screams around the track. I am pretty sure that on a fitness level I am better off than him by far, but there was no way that I can keep up with him on the race track. He is just a better rider. With that said I run 3 miles 5-days a week for cardio and lift weights 4-days a week to maintain strength. I find that it really helps me maintain my energy level at the track, but it hasn't made me any faster.
Shane
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Again, I confess to my newbie-ness getting in the way of my ability to recall everything but I thought it might be a possibility. I know my throttle control can be sloppy sometimes especially since I swap between my SV for the track and a GSX-R750 for the street and they feel so different in terms of throttle character. I'm starting to wonder whether I should keep things simple for me and use a similar bike for both street and track especially since my work prevents me from getting a large amount of seat time on either and this is only my third year on a bike so my adaptability is wanting.
Don't read too much in to the crash. It happens and it may happen again. Learn what you can from it and move on. The one thing that a crash will do is destroy your confidence. So the next time out just work up slowly to your normal pace and don't be too discouraged if it takes a while to get back up to speed. Read Twist of the Wrist II and see if it helps you understand your riding and what you can do to improve. And I highly recommend taking the school when you get a chance.
Also we were not at the track when you crashed so we may be way off base or the information you are giving us may be off based on your memory. You could have easily hit some water/oil from another bike or just had crappy tires on the rental bike. At this point no one really knows.
Good Luck,
Shane
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One thing I wonder about as far as the crash is whether I ended up totally losing it because I had a hard time maintaining my throttle once the wobble started. I wonder if once the wobble started I ended up with my throttle input fluctuating and engine braking caused the rear tire to load up intermittently - kind of like if I had been hitting the brakes on and off. I know the SVs engine braking can be pretty abrupt because it's a twin so I wonder if that was a contributing factor?
From my experience the front letting go usually causes the bars to go very light on the inside bar and not really wobble, but I guess if it lets go and catches and you have too much pressure on the bars it could feel like a wobble. If you did indeed start to loose the front and you rolled of the throttle slightly you definitely asked for more traction than the tire was capable of providing.
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Ok so you were tightening up the second apex which requires more lean angle; did you adjust your throttle input accordingly? If you added more lean angle and throttle at the same time that could result in the rear breaking loose and luckily causing the low-side. What tires were you running and what condition were they in? Also was the suspension stock or aftermarket? What type of lap times were you running (novice, intermediate, or advanced)?
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You stated this was a double apex, was the crash after the first apex or second apex?
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Were you on or off of the throttle?
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Hi -
I am 6 feet tall, 38 years old, weigh 200 lbs, and I ride a 2003 Honda CBR 954. I also happen to have very long arms (never can find a shirt with sleeves long enough - ha ha).
I went to the track for the first time last Friday and after reviewing the pictures, it was apparent that I am riding in a very upright position, with my head far above the bike. What is the correct way to position myself on the bike? I know I could slide my butt farther back in the seat. Should my stomach be resting on the tank as well? Is there a certain height that I should target for my head? Obviously the street riding position is not ideal for the track.
I did well hitting the apexes and riding the correct lines, made sure the balls of my feet were on the pegs, and shifted my body to the inside prior to cornering. I was just always so upright. I guess the more "prone" position feels very unnatural to me. Is it something I should practice during street riding? (The body position only, not racing).
Thanks for any help or suggestions!
Dan
Body position on a bike is definitely a personnel feeling. If you are not dragging hard parts then don't worry too much about your body position. Yeah, you may not look as cool as Ben Spies, but it really doesn't matter until you run out of ground clearance, Just stay relaxed and comfortable.
Now with that said, I used to hang way off the bike and twist around the tank. The CSS coaches fixed my body position so that I could be more relaxed and in control of the bike. Here are a few things to keep in mind.
- Outside knee and thigh should be pressed into the outside of the tank.
- Lock the outside knee into the tank by pushing against the outside peg.
- Do not twist around the tank.
- Try to rotate the inside knee out as far as you comfortably can.
- Your upper body should follow your inside knee so that you are leaning low and to the inside.
- Rest a portion of your torso on the tank and rest your outside arm on the tank.
- Use the balls of your feet on the pegs.
Everybody is slightly different and doesn't do this exactly the same, so just work on it and see how it goes. The object is to get the weight low and to the inside.
Good luck,
Shane
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Hey Stow,
I remember your post before the school and relayed what I thought were my mistakes as I took level I and II. I am very glad to see that you came away with a great experience. I just got back a couple of weeks ago from doing two level IV's at VIR. It just gets better! I worked on some technics to help with the quick turn but felt I was going to wide out of the turns. James and Pete were my coaches and pointed out that I was working so hard on the turn in and body position that I was not doing the three step. Wow! Tie them all together and there it is! I also have to thank input from Will. He helped me with my suspension set up. Thanks Will. All in all a great weekend.
I will be at Barber on Saturday 9/27. Any chance you will be around?
Darryl
A 55
NESBA
Hello Darryl,
Glad to hear that Level 3 and 4 worked well for you. I will definitely take them next year. Yeah it is amazing how some simple ideas make a huge difference. I won't be back on the track until October at Barber with NESBA. Good luck next weekend and hopefully we can hook up in October or November.
Shane
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I think you got the whole throttle thing under control and know what to do now. I am still baffled, I am trying to figure out what the trackday instructor actually meant. Maybe he was trying to convey that you needed to be at neutral throttle and not completely off of the throttle. But I think being off throttle during the turn in and getting back on the throttle as soon as possible is the right procedure and that is what I remember from the school.
Luckily I don't have a left versus right issue. But I think you are on the right track with your resolution. At the last school I was having problems with 3 turns, and during the relaxation drill I realized I just couldn't relax in those turns. So I turned the problem around and determined what I was doing differently in the other turns that allowed me to relax. I found I tensed up so much in the 3 turns that I was having issues with that my body position was completely different when making the turn in versus the other turns. It really helped me out a great deal when I finally figured this out.
Good luck,
Shane
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Welcome aboard. The board has a lot of great information. Enjoy.
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I am pretty sure you don't want to add throttle while adding lean angle. Obviously this really depends on the amount off lean angle and speed you are carrying. At slower speeds you can break all of the rules. But in general you want to make your steering input and get to the lean angle needed for the turn and speed and then get back on the throttle. Adding lean angle and throttle at the same time will put you on your head eventually and I am not sure why anyone would tell you to do that.
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CSS Riding Coach Josh Galster crashed at Road Atlanta during the AMA Supersport race. Here is a link to more information on the WERA board.
Get well soon.
Shane
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I just finished level 1 and 2 at Barber and I couldn't be more pleased. The other schools I have attended (Big Name / Big Money) just don't come close to the level of coaching Keith's staff provides. This year is my fourth year of doing track days and I have worked hard to get bumped up to the Advanced group with NESBA (something I am very proud of). But just a little time (9 months) away from the track set me back to a point where I just fought the bike in every turn. Pure frustration was the only thing I took away from my last couple of track weekends. A good friend (thanks Robert) told me about CSS and how much he learned, but I was hesitant to go to a school that made me start at level 1 and beside I had already been to several schools. I am so glad that I got over my high opinion of my riding and signed up for the level 1 and level 2 class. Honestly I didn't know what to expect so I just showed up with an open mind and armed with the material covered in Twist of the Wrist I and II.
Tropical storm Fay (the storm that just wouldn't die or go away) decided to pay a visit to the western side of Florida and send rain all the way up to Barber Motorsports Park and alleviate the area of its current drought status. Wow just in time to ruin the one thing I have been looking forward to for months. Nothing like getting to the track and seeing nothing but clouds, gray skies, and rain. Yeah this was the worst weekend of my life and the weather forecast was pretty much abysmal . I couldn't have been further away from the reality that was about to set in.
I am not going to go on and on about all of the things that I learned and each drill the coaches put us through on and off of the track because it would take a whole book, well actually 2 books and Keith has already taken care of that huge task. But I will say that the step by step instruction broken down in each classroom session was tightly coupled to every session on the track. Every riding coach, track marshal, corner worker, and student knew the drill and format for every track session. CSS is a well ran machine designed to produce better riders. The school is a true example of professionalism.
Now what about all of the rain which I was so sure would ruin my weekend. Well it was by far the best scenario to improve my riding. I even told Keith he should use sprinklers to wet the track at all of his schools. The slippery conditions forced me to slow down and allowed me to spend more attention on each and every drill and technique. If it was a dry track I am pretty sure I would have twisted the throttle to the point where my attention would have been split between the drills and my speed. By the end of the first day, I had a very strong understanding of what Keith and Dylan covered in the classroom sessions and was able to see exactly why my last few track days were so aggravating.
Day 2 was more of the same, rain, rain, and more rain. Even though the first day worked out perfectly and I couldn't have been happier with the results, I was hoping for a dry track. I dug deep and brought out the positive attitude and set forth to get the most out of level 2 in the rain. The first three session went great and I focused fully on the drills and learned more and more with each and every lap. But something very strange appeared in the sky, it was big, bright, and projected heat towards the track. The sun was peeking through the clouds and I could see beautiful blue skies. The track dried quickly and we got 3 great sessions on a dry track. Honestly it couldn't have happened at a better time in order to match up with the level 2 curriculum. My weekend was perfect.
Now what exactly did Keith, Dylan, Paul, Hieu, and Josh do to make me a better rider? I learned what it takes to keep a bike stable and happy, how to relax and not fight the bike, when, where and how to use the throttle, the best way to quickly get a bike to turn and not continue to provide input into the bars after the initial turn, how to properly lean off the bike and have complete control (I have been doing this the wrong way for so long, big thanks to Josh for something so simple, but it really improved my riding and ability to ride longer and relax the entire time), how to see the track the right way, and so much more.
Paul was my riding coach for both level 1 and 2. He knew what I was doing every moment on the track and knew exactly what question to ask so that I would think about my riding and match up the drills and techniques with situations on the track. Paul is an excellent coach and I am looking forward to working with him again when I do level 3 and 4. Hieu was my off-track coach for level 1 and showed me how a clutchless downshift works and how it could smooth out my riding. I was pretty impressed with the technique and will be adding it to my riding more often. Josh was my off-track coach for level 2 and showed me why the way I was used to hanging off the bike was all wrong and how when done the right way I could relax and no longer felt all the tension on my inside leg and knee. This information was worth the price of admission alone. Keith and Dylan were the classroom instructors for both days and both were able to provide information about how as humans we tend to do the wrong things instinctively that make us bad riders. It was uncanny how both could break down something that seemed so complex to something that know seems obvious and simple.
Thank you to everyone at CSS. I can't wait to see all of you again next year.
Shane Tow
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I will be at Barber this weekend doing Level 1 and Level 2 on Saturday and Sunday. This will be my first time with CSS. How is the day usually ran? Since there are 4 levels are there going to be four separate track session for each level or are some of the levels combined? I assume each level has its own class room session. Do we have one track coach for the day or do the coaches rotate in and out from session to session? How long are the track session and the classroom sessions?
Thanks,
Shane
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Shane,
Thanks so much for checking into that and keeping me up to date with the info. So, I guess it is not looking too good for dropping off or camping. Will you have to go to an RV park or what else can you do? I may have to breathe gas vapors all night....along with wife and dog (we leave him in the hotel when at Barber). Not being able to drop a bike off is most uncool since I would think there will be many out of town people with bikes.
I feared the worst since no one from the school has responded to neither this thread nor my email to the school.
I am not bringing the RV if I can't camp at the track. I will just bring the bike in the back of the truck. I may come out Friday, but more than likely I will just leave home early Saturday morning and get a hotel for Saturday night.
Shane
You must live a bit closer to the track than I do. I am in Greenville, SC...4.5 to 6 hours depending on Atlanta traffic.
I am just north of Atlanta so it is a little over 2 hours if there is no traffic. But I get 1 hour back with the time zone difference. I plan to be at the track by 6:30 AM, so I have to leave my house around 5:00 AM. I was looking forward to using the RV, but it just isn't worth pulling it out there if I can't hang out with people in the paddock after the day is over.
Shane
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Shane,
Thanks so much for checking into that and keeping me up to date with the info. So, I guess it is not looking too good for dropping off or camping. Will you have to go to an RV park or what else can you do? I may have to breathe gas vapors all night....along with wife and dog (we leave him in the hotel when at Barber). Not being able to drop a bike off is most uncool since I would think there will be many out of town people with bikes.
I feared the worst since no one from the school has responded to neither this thread nor my email to the school.
I am not bringing the RV if I can't camp at the track. I will just bring the bike in the back of the truck. I may come out Friday, but more than likely I will just leave home early Saturday morning and get a hotel for Saturday night.
Shane
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Now I am worried. I emailed the school and this thread has been on here since last week and I haven't gotten a reply in either place. Surely a school as organized as CSS would allow the same courtesy as every track day org I know of, in allowing students to drop off their bikes at the track the night before.
I called the school and they have no problem with dropping off the bike the night before, but it is totally up to the track. I also asked about camping at the track which is up to the track as well. Unfortunately, my email from the track says that CSS doesn't allow camping during its events. So I am now trying to get in touch with the track and see why they said CSS doesn't allow camping. Barber is a really strange place from a management standpoint. Every time I go to that track they change the rules about something.
Ok, I just got off the phone with Barber and there will be no camping allowed. The reason is that they charge and extra fee to the organization to allow camping and CSS doesn't pay the fee in order to keep costs down. So we will not be allowed to camp at the track. Heather from Barber is checking on gate times for Friday, but her first response was that we probably wouldn't have access Friday night. She is going to call me back and let me know later this week.
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Now I am worried. I emailed the school and this thread has been on here since last week and I haven't gotten a reply in either place. Surely a school as organized as CSS would allow the same courtesy as every track day org I know of, in allowing students to drop off their bikes at the track the night before.
I called the school and they have no problem with dropping off the bike the night before, but it is totally up to the track. I also asked about camping at the track which is up to the track as well. Unfortunately, my email from the track says that CSS doesn't allow camping during its events. So I am now trying to get in touch with the track and see why they said CSS doesn't allow camping. Barber is a really strange place from a management standpoint. Every time I go to that track they change the rules about something.
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Shane,
I think racer has good advice. I also wanted to add that I noticed when people blew T7 at Road Atlanta, most of them were turning in too early and then had to add lean angle (and scrubbed speed when they should have been adding it) when they should have been straightening the bike up. I attributed part of the problem to the cone placement along with the last 2/3 of the turn being blind. So, they would see the cone and turn in at that point, when they really should have turned in later.
And many of the same riders were approaching T7 pretty slowly (braking a bit too early).
So, I don't think you are alone with T7 problems at RA. I generally do well at the slow technical corners but I think sphincter cramping limits me on the high speed ones.
See you at CSS Barber on 8/23 and 8/24. Look for me. I have a Kawi green 636 with yellow number plates with 636 on them. And it has my nickname, Meat, on the ears (next to windscreen).
Oh yeah, I have turned in early a lot at turn 7. You are right about the cone placement it always seems to be a little too far back from the actual turn in.
I will look for you at Barber. I am on an 08 R6 (black, with yellow on the side wings, and yellow number plates with number 529). I will also have my 28' Keystone Outback Trailer with me. I will be camping in the paddock both Friday and Saturday night.
Look forward to meeting you.
Shane
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Wow, that would thoroughly suck and I would be MOST disappointed if that were the situation this year. I sent an email to CSS from their website with the info you gave me. CSS is a very organized and professional operation (that is why I am taking it). I just don't see a respected school like this shitting on its customers before they even get on the track.
I am really getting worried now. I figured it was a given that I could drop my bike.
Usually we have no problems with the trackday orgs getting in the night before. I will be bringing my RV and camping in the pits, so I hope everything from Barber's standpoint is ran just like any other trackday event.
Shane
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When you say you scraped the "feeler peg", do you mean you are scraping the actual end of the peg where your foot is placed or the aluminum rod that extends below the peg? If you are referring to the rod that extends below the peg, I would just remove them all together. And as mentioned above scraping the pegs isn't usually a good thing. It is usually and indicator that you are using all of your available lean angle. And you shouldn't be using that much lean angle unless you are setting the track record.
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Thanks for sharing your experience and congratulation on breaking through your riding barrier.
Shane
Trailer Set-up
in School Questions/General Discussion
Posted
If you plan to run A/C and/or heat, go ahead and do the insulation in the walls and ceiling before installing anything else. Also use 12v lighting on the inside and get an inverter to provide the 12v while plugged into 120v at the track. Be sure to plan to distribute your weight evenly in the trailer. Go for the ramp door with spring assist. Dual axle with electric brakes and brake controller in the truck is the only way to go. Windows are very nice to have if you plan to stay in the trailer at the track.