stow
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Posts posted by stow
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Hi Shane,
First, I was wondering are you a NESBA member and if so what region? I am in the Southeast region. I saw this post and realized what problems I was having committing to the quick turn and since Barber is my home track I thought I would chime in on turn 14 and 14A. I am assuming you are talking about the turn near pit out? I had asked the question before on other threads about the dilemma I was having running down off the tunnel into 14 at max lean angle versus the quick turn approach at the TP. I had a tendency of just holding my position down through the apex of thirteen all the way to the entrance of 14 and 14a because I thought I was going "really fast".
But I discovered through the help of CSS instructors that I go faster through these turns and all the turns if I am decisive about my TP and committment to the quick turn. Believe me, I have never ridden faster and I have never been more consistent. The CSS school will help so free your mind of what you think and try what they think...be patient with some of the less experienced riders in level I and don't go so fast that you don't apply the technics they teach. I hope to see you at the track someday.
DT
DT,
I am a NESBA member and ride in the South East region. The NESBA CRs and Directors are a great group of guys. My home track is Road Atlanta, but I usually get to Barber 3-4 weekends a year. Unfortunately I have only been to Barber one day in the past year. That will change this year since I will be doing the CSS weekend and 3 more weekends with NESBA before the end of the riding season.
Thanks for the advice and information about CSS. I am sure they can work with me to get rid of my bad habits and help me build better habits. Let me know when you will be at Barber with NESBA, I would love to discuss riding and CSS with you.
Thanks,
Shane
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Ok, if I understand you correctly, it seems that there are two parts to what you are experiencing or feeling as you approach and turn in to a slow corner. The first part is a mental reluctance or fear of leaning the bike too fast or too far at slower speeds because some part of your brain "senses" or believes that the bike doesn't have enough momentum to not fall over. The second part is a "sense" of being "rushed" or feeling like you are entering the corner too fast.
Hmm...
Ok... let me see if I got this straight.
Part 1: you feel like you are going too slow.
Part 2: you feel like you are going too fast.
(Sorry, I couldn't resist
)Seriously, I can see how part one could lead to part two. If you feel like you can't lean the bike fast enough or far enough, then there isn't as much space or time to get the job done. Hence, you simultaneously feel like you are going too slow and too fast. Man, that sounds frustrating. One part of you wants to go faster at the same time another part of you wants to go slower. What do you do?!
Well, assuming you have good tires and there is no mechanical problem with your bike that would cause you to fall over for no reason, I'd suggest finding some place like a large parking lot where you have enough room to conduct a little impromptu "skid pad" action. I would try to concentrate on counter-steering while you practice flicking the bike at slow speed. Then I would practice riding in a circle at slow speed while making the circle smaller and smaller, leaning more and more. First one way, then the other. Just try to get yourself comfortable with extreme lean angles at low speed in a safe open environment. Make sure the surface is clean and doesn't have greasy spots from parked cars leaking oil and whatnot.
Maybe there is some mental excercise you could do. Perhaps something as simple as some mental imagery. Like picture yourself doing what you want to do. If it is as you say, a bit of a mental block to doing something you know the bike can do if you apply the appropriate input at the bars, then maybe that could help make it easier, eh?
What do you think?
r
PS - Unfortunately, I don't have plans to be at Barber... unless of course the school decides to hire me on at Mid-Ohio... or something crazy like that. I suppose anything is possible. Now that I think about it, that has happened before....
racer,
Thanks for the advice. And as confusing as it sounds I think you have put into words what I am actually going through. The feeling of falling over may indeed be the part that has me wanting to go faster into the turn. So yes I am going too fast while feeling like I am going too slow. Wow that is frustrating. But at least I think I understand the problem and can work on a resolution. The parking lot idea sounds like very good advice. I will look around my area and see what I can find.
Thanks again and have fun at Mid Ohio.
Shane
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Before I switched to the R6, I had an 05 GSX-R750. And before the 750, I had an 05 GSX-R600. It took me about 2-3 trackdays to get back to the same lap times on the 750 as on the previous 600. The acceleration out of the turns leads to a lot more speed approaching the next turn. That much speed increase just messed with my head and caused me to brake earlier and brake harder. I am much happier with my new R6. It is plenty fast down the straights and very fun in the turns. There are not a lot of trackday guys that can go faster on 1000cc bike versus 600cc bike. Of course there are some that can take advantage of the extra power.
Shane
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Duke,
Sorry to hear that you had issues with Traxxion. I will not defend them in your situation, but will say that they have only provided the best of service to me every time that I have used them. Max and the rest of the team are great guys.
Back to your question. I have always been curious as how spring rates are chosen also. Usually as you stated they only ask for the bike model, your weight, and the application (road, track, race, etc). I am sure they are using years of empirical data to determine the spring rates that would work best. Also how does one account for fuel level? The difference in the weight of the bike with a full tank and a 1/4 tank of fuel could be around 15lbs alone. So I am guessing that the appropriate spring with the proper damping valves would work over a fairly wide range, well a tleast 15lbs.
Shane
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I love the reverse shift pattern, if someone could tell me why the "street" shift pattern is the way it is that would be good.
Why don't all bike come straight from the shop with a reverse shift pattern?
Maybe because it is easier to think of down as down and up as up.
I switched to GP shift when I installed a quick shifter on my bike. It just seemed like less work and effort to push down on the lever to shift up quickly coming out of a corner rather than place my foot under the shifter and pulling up. I will not go back to standard shift. Also I only had one or two moments where I shifted up a gear instead of down a gear on the first day I ran GP shift. It is very easy to change over mentally when at the track, because you always know when you are going to shift, so you just prepare yourself to shift the other direction before you hit your shift point. And honestly the down shifts are where you might get rushed and mess up.
Shane
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Hi Shane,
Can you be more specific about your feeling that you are "going into the corner too fast"? Is there something concrete that you can point to? Are you running wide in the corner? Missing the apex? Are you up on the curb at the exit? Are you tempted to roll off the gas mid-corner? Is there some part of your plan, some specific mark that you are missing or sub-product that you are failing to achieve? Or is it "just a feeling" of being "rushed" at your turn point?
Do you have a plan?
racer
racer,
One sensation that I have in slow corners is that I feel like I can not lean the bike as far as in a fast corner. For some reason the slower speed gives me the feeling that I don't have enough momentum to actually keep the bike up. This is just a sensation that I get when trying to turn in to slow corners, almost like a sensation that the bike will just fall over. Of course to be specific about turn 7 at Road Atlanta, I do tend to miss the apex and run wide out of the turn. And at times I do have to roll back on and then off of the throttle. I have two main RPs in the turn, just before the end of the outside curbing for the turn in and just passed the crest of the inside curbing for the apex. I don't really have any other RPs beyond that other than doing my best to stay focused at looking down the track instead of to the outside of the track.
Thanks for your help. Also will you be at Barber on August 23 and 24?
Shane
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A modern I4 600 is by far the best choice for a trackday bike. Even the GSX-R750 is a little too much. I just couldn't even imagine what a liter bike could do. Good luck.
Shane
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I think my biggest issue is that I am turning in too early and using a lazy steering input. I really need to focus on waiting a little longer to turn in and finding the correct RP for the turn in. The quick steering input is something I will have to get my instructor to pound in to my head at Barber.
Shane;
I think you might get more out of attending the School if you set aside your preconceptions of what to focus on and let the School take you through Level's I & 2. There are so many different factors that affect one's ability to corner a motorcycle that you may be surprised that what is holding you back is not what you think. I offer this as someone who has attended many, many CSS events at seven different tracks and as a corner worker at three.
The School knows how to teach riders how to corner - that is a simple fact. You have invested in yourself by deciding to attend, let them do their job so that you get a maximum return on that investment.
Kevin
Kevin,
Believe me I will come to the school with an open mind and allow the instructors to guide me in the right direction. Hell just signing up for the school was a big step. I have been riding on the track for four years, and I have been to several good schools, and I consider myself pretty fast and even slightly competitive at a novice racing level. Seeing that I had to start with Level 1 with CSS was at first a concern, but now that I am reading the books and reading all the material on the forum, I see that I am making the best decision to improve my riding. But at the same time the books are generating a lot of questions about my riding and the topic of this post was one of the biggest issues that I realized I have. I am very excited about what CSS has to offer and can't wait to see what I can get out of the school. One thing that I found with the previous schools is that if you didn't have an idea on what you needed to improve on then you might just get lost in the curriculum. So over the next 23 days I am going to examine my mental laps around Barber over and over and come armed with questions and continue to question my instructor until we are both on the same page. He or she may set me straight right away and that will be just fine with me. I have one goal and that goal is to improve.
I enjoy riding on the race track and plan to start racing again next year, but the last two days at the track were just so frustrating. I was a good 5 seconds off my pace. I could even come back in the pits and talk with other guys riding and they would tell me exactly where I was losing time, and I knew the turns before they even mentioned them. But I just couldn't get through them mentally. Odd how 10 months will mess with your perception of speed and skill. Oops I am rambling, sorry.
Thanks for the advice, and I will keep my mind open and fresh for 7:00 AM August 23 at Barber.
Shane
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What you are referring to is reverse shift of GP shift. A lot of riders run GP shift, and a lot run standard shift. I know for a fact that Kevin Schwantz and Matt Mladin both run standard shift. I personally like GP shift, and I have ran GP shift on the street and track. Just experiment with it and see if you like it.
Shane
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racer,
Honestly I never thought about the fact turn 7 at Road Atlanta is more than a 90 degree turn. That could be the biggest thing that causes me to go in to the corner too fast. Unfortunately the concrete patches are no longer there after the repave so a lot of the mid-corner RP are gone. I think my biggest issue is that I am turning in too early and using a lazy steering input. I really need to focus on waiting a little longer to turn in and finding the correct RP for the turn in. The quick steering input is something I will have to get my instructor to pound in to my head at Barber. Honestly it is something that I usually do not do. More than likely not being able to do the quick steering input is what leads to the early turn in as well. Ummm.
Thanks for the input.
Shane
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And you don't have problems with turn 5 at Barber? That is the tightest corner on the track.
Well turn 5 at Barber gives me issues also as well as the exit from the roller coaster, but I mainly wanted to concentrate on turn 7 at Road Atlanta and turn 13 at Barber. I think if I can conquer those 2 turns then turn 5 and the roller coaster at Barber will fall in to place as well.
Thanks,
Shane
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One issue that I have noticed over the past couple of years is that I have problems with tight technical corners. Some examples would be turn 7 at Road Atlanta, turn 4 at VIR, turn 13 at Barber (well I think it is 13, the last right hander). I know these corners give me fits at times due to coming in to the corner to fast. This seems like an easy problem to cure, but the corners continue to suck me in faster. So Twist of the Wrist explains very well how to approach turns that give you the impression that you can enter them faster. So I have a plan to overcome this issue. Now for the other problem that occurs with this type of turn, and this one is completely psychological. I can not for the life of me get comfortable with quickly leaning the bike in to these slower turns. I know the objective of turn 7 at Road Atlanta is to make one quick steering input and get to the appropriate lean angle for the turn and speed through the turn. For some reason I just tense up on the bike and make what I would call a lazy steering input. I know I am carrying a lot more speed and lean angle into faster turns on the track without issue, but can not get comfortable with these particular turns. Anybody have any ideas? This is one of the 3 big question I will bring to the school at Barber in August, but I though someone might have some insight to how they handle these particular turns.
Thanks,
Shane
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Cobie,
I will definitely come by and say hello at Barber. So far the forum has been very helpful, and I am re-reading both Twist of the Wrist books. I will be at Barber armed with questions about improving my riding.
Thanks,
Shane
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I just joined the forum and like what I see so far. I have been riding on the track for several years, but took some time off. Unfortunately the time off added more time to my lap times. I will be taking the Level 1 and 2 school at Barber on August 23 and 24. I am looking forward to the school and hopefully I can figure out what is currently holding me back.
Thanks,
Shane
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Problems With Tight Corners
in Cornering and Techniques
Posted
Thanks. This is very good information to have before taking the class. I will look for you in October.
Shane