asinn0007
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Posts posted by asinn0007
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When Garry McCoy was sliding around in MotoGP & smokin' tires, they found out that it created little heat in the carcass of the tire; it only heated the surface.
But he would be on MotoGP racing slicks, which have notoriously hard carcasses and can be hard for slower riders to get up to temperature. My guess is that the Qualifiers are not in that class, and certainly not the SportAttacks--which are more street oriented.
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Hi Andy,
4. The bike should be more upright, when hanging off, shouldn't be less traction (and tire sliding). Wonder if you have some handlebar input?
CF
Bike does lean less. Maybe not "less traction," possibly "steering with the rear tire". When this happening, I am pushing on the inside bar and feel as though I am pushing the rear wheel outwards with butt and inside leg.
I did level 1 in NJ. Tires on bikes came in shredded, but after our group rode them, the tires were polished clean.
If you have any traction issues, and you have weight on the inside bar, that can be a real factor. Remember the rider input briefing?
CF
I remember the moral of the story, which is relax and let the bike do its job. But I don't remember the example...oh yes, I was sliding the back end around and going wide on the decreasing radius turns until I relaxed and gave it throttle more aggressively. Thank you again, Cobie.
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Hi Andy,
4. The bike should be more upright, when hanging off, shouldn't be less traction (and tire sliding). Wonder if you have some handlebar input?
CF
Bike does lean less. Maybe not "less traction," possibly "steering with the rear tire". When this happening, I am pushing on the inside bar and feel as though I am pushing the rear wheel outwards with butt and inside leg.
I did level 1 in NJ. Tires on bikes came in shredded, but after our group rode them, the tires were polished clean.
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It sounds like when you're not hanging off, you lower your upper body to the inside of the turn, is that right? When you hang off, is your upper body in the same position?
I try to stay in line with the centerline of the bike, although my best turns are done when I drop the inside shoulder a bit. As if I were to open a door with that shoulder.
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A while back--this was a few years--I think this was RW magazine did a whole test on zig zagging (weaving back and forth in the pit lane, or on the track). The tire manufacturer measured the tire temps, and what they found was zig-zagging did zip, zero, no significant change in tire temps.
If you do find that data on braking please let me know. It might help the front tire, but not sure how it would help the rear. Our experience has shown that both sides of the tires have to be warmed up, and this is done by cornering/flexing the tire, that's what puts heat into it.
On cold days, the contact with the asphalt actually cools the tire off--so friction is not the factor some might think it is.
CF
Thank you, Cobie. That makes sense, flexing from weight and cornering forces would warm the bottom and sides of the tires. Acceleration forces would warm the rear tires more than braking. Burnouts, anyone?
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More Europeans tend to ride year round than Americans, so coming up to temperature quickly is a feature that is closely watched by Europeans. Especially on the street, where stoplights and traffic can give tires multiple opportunities to cool off and warm up.
Conti links to this tire report: http://www.conti-moto.sk/PS%20TESTSIEGER%2...K%20ENGLISH.pdf and based on this I bought SportAttacks for the street. However, the American Sport Bike magazines seem pretty unanimous that for track days the Dunlop Qualifier and now the Qualifier 2's are better choices. I suspect that the SportAttack's might get greasy after 20 minutes all out in warm weather.
Just take it easy the first couple of laps gradually increasing the pace and demands on the tires.
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5. Bike, and rider. If the rider has poor throttle control, or doesn't understand how to warm the tires, problems can arise then. Example: some riders think they warm the tires by hard braking. Might warm the center of the tires a bit, but the sides need to be warmed, both sides.
CF
Hi Cobie,
I wish I can remember where I read it, but an apparent authoritative source said that braking will warm up the whole front tire. The reasoning, or theory, is that with radial ply tires the most stress is put on the carcass through braking and acceleration (deforming the radial plies), and that the tire is warmed from the inside outwards--not from the contact patch inwards.
Personally, I'm still warming my tires through zig-zags, but only because hard braking will probably get me a new job as a hood ornament.
Does real track experience disprove the theory?
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ECR -> http://www.eaglescanyon.com/2008/home.php
Just joined so I can get all the track time I have time for (meaning not a lot $#%@$#%@#$%)
Some videos of me going (slowly) around the track: http://www.youtube.com/tweekscratch
I label things pretty clearly. I have some video from some pretty fast riders going around ECR.
Couldn't open your URL. Found this:
This rider does seem to not hit top speed or shift gears, slows down too much at entrance, doesn't use the full width of the track, apexes a little early, and has trouble picking a line (mid corner course and throttle corrections). Just going by the mantra: "A good line is one where we can increase the throttle throughout."Hope that helped.
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Dear Forum Members and Instructors:
I can understand the need to hang off when we're on the track going 95-100%, but some guys I know hang off all the time, on highways, on the streets, etc.
Personally, I have some favorite roads where I find it safe enough to travel at 85% of what I estimate the bike, rider, and road is capable of, and I've tried going around these bends while hanging off, and without hanging off.
Without hanging off the bike feels secure and planted (although it feels like my elbow and helmet are about to graze the tarmac), but when hanging off--at the same speed--it feels like the center of gravity is at my inside footpeg, and therefore the rear tire is outside the line of travel. Consequently, the rear tire is sliding, and when I get off and check the tires, they are indeed "shredded". There is a narrow band at or near the edge of the tire where the rubber is freshly rubbed off and some of the residue is sticking to the tire.
While it feels great to hang off, at the speed I was traveling, it seemed as though I was decreasing traction. Should the rear slide a bit, it seems that planting a knee down on street pavement would be a bad idea with the irregularities and pot holes that are so common.
Under what conditions does hanging off increase cornering speed and traction and when does it just increase risk without a tangible benefit?
What would happen if a deer jumps out and I need to brake 100% suddenly while my torso is hanging off the side of the bike?
I realize that to keep these skills fresh we need to practice them, but I need some common sense advice about the applicability and advisability of hanging off on the streets, between track days and SBS sessions.
Are the examples of my riding buddies good ones, or are they SQUID's (Super Quick Until Imminent Death)?
Thanks in advance for your advice and comments.
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Wow, it's hard to argue with experienced riders like Harnois and I generally agree.
I just want clarify regarding sand and gravel and sportbike tires, because I've found that with upgraded tires, I can ignore the usual dusting of construction sand or a bit of road sand along the edges. This is better than the "sport touring" tires I had before, which would give me a fright on the least amount of sand.
With a dusting or a light single layer of sand, it seems to me that the softer rubber wraps around the individual sand particles and holds them still, instead of rolling or sliding on them.
But, to play it safe, I always slow down (not below 15 mph!) before a patch of sand or gravel, and try to approach as vertical as possible with slightly positive throttle, just in case there's a depression in the road and the "light dusting" turns out to be a sand pit.
Regards,
Andy S.
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Ayup, I recently did my level 3 and whilst I enjoyed it and learned a lot, one thing has been bugging me.
When sliding your arse (ass) across the seat what is the correct technique?
I was told by my coach to;
Press inside knee into the tank and use the inner knee/thigh to help slide my arse across in to position for the turn.
Have I understood this correctly? I found level 3 very hard as I learned techniques that were alien to me and I'm not sure if I misunderstood this technique.
Thanks
There are videos on youtube if you need to review. Search on California Superbike School.
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Gentlemen,
Thank you. That is exactly what I'm looking for. The owner of that sight preaches his gospel and the members are generally choir members, so it is very difficult to get an unbiased discussion.
Thanks.
Andy S.
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The three keys are, IMHO.
1. Judging entry speed--staying smooth
2. Finding the right turn-in point
3. Rolling on the throttle as soon as possible.
If you misjudge the entry speed, nothing else you can do afterwards could make up for it. This requires visual skills. If the entry speed is too high, you'll charge in, unable to stay smooth, underperforming in one turn or an entire chicane.
The turn: Turning point, apex, and quick turn-in are all necessary to proper turning on the street and on the track.
Getting on the throttle and rolling on appropriately permits maximum exit speed onto next straight without (hopefully) high-siding or running off the road.
All three seem to be fundamental requisites to proper turning on the street and on the track.
Andy S.
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1. Judging entry speed
2. Staying smooth
3. Rolling on the throttle as soon as possible.
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Gentlemen,
Thank you for your time answering this question. Thanks for the details, Harnois. I trust your and Adam's first hand experience much more than that of any theory, paper calculations, or computer models.
Regards,
Andy
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Hi Everyone,
I had some questions about the look, push, and roll technique. Please stop me anywhere that I am mistaken.
1) Suppose my tires are capable of 1.2 g's of turning force (traction).
2) 45 degrees lean angle usually indicates 1.0 g of turning force.
3) One can turn at 1.0 g's of force at 100 mph.
4) Once can also turn at 1.0 g's of force at 45 mph.
5) Would the lean angles for 3 and 4 be the same 45 degrees?
6) Would only the radii for 3 and 4 necessarily be different?
7) What happens if I go into a turn at a 45 degree lean angle and roll on the throttle while maintaining the same lean angle? Do I increase the G force without changing the lean angle? Or does the lean angle subtly increase (centripetal force) to counter balance the increasing centrifugal force of the turn?
8) In 7 above, does the bike want to stand up or under-steer (widen the turn)?
9) Should the effective lean angle be calculated from the center of gravity of the rider/motorcycle unit (if the rider hangs off)?
Thanks,
Andy
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Hello,
Please check out this link:
http://www.msgroup.org/forums/MTT/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6857
This post has bugged me from even before I took the SBS level 1 course because the computer programmer turned court room motorcycling expert has proclaimed it impossible to make a 90 degree corner at greater than 23 mph. And I believe that there's a corner matching his description that I routinely enter at 25mph and exit at about 35 mph. Not having been a star at the Level 1 course, and because I do not generally hang off, I believe that others who can hang off and ride better can enter and exit at even higher speeds.
This post, I believe, has been much abbreviated, as this or a similar thread was quite controversial and had many differing opinions. Any feedback would be appreciated. My seat of the pants impression of aggressive lean-in and late apex turns is that the radius of the turn is greater than the 40' as described in the link. But my mind can't wrap around how the entry into the turn is not tangent line into a constant radius curve which would lead me to run into the outside curb. In other words, if a 40' radius circle is the greatest radius curve possible centered over the corner, how can we make a 50' radius curve for example, centered elsewhere when it seems that it would require greater turning forces in order to do that?
Another way to look at it. How, for instance, is it that if the 50 degree lean angle generates the maximum 1.2 g's of turning force my tires are capable of, that my tire tracks seem to describe an abrupt change in direction which seems to require much more g force? How is that abrupt transition possible?
I believe the issue is not with how we ride, but in how the limitations are artificial and incomplete in this physics example.
Please help.
Regards,
Andy
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Hi Hotfoot,
Wow! Your example of the blind curve and oncoming cage is the most extreme version of a biker's nightmare. Truth is, there could be zero reaction time in that case.
That image sure caught my attention! While I was waiting for an objective definition of 70%, and apparently there isn't one, your description is clear and concise from two different viewpoints: 1) traction and 2) reaction time.... Sincerely,
Andy
Andy,I'm really glad that was helpful for you, it's a nice feeling to make a suggestion, and then learn that it was useful, so thank you for letting me know! ....
This is a fun discussion, I'm glad you got it started!
Hotfoot
Hey Hotfoot;
Not trying to interrupt a good dialogue, I do want to offer a shout out for your comment on the blind curve truck scenerio.
I have a series of quiet country roads I ride for a short while after work and in about thirty five miles I can practice a lot of our CSS training. Last night I am riding downhill into a series of blind curves (like a wider version of the Corkscrew and a tighter version of Rainey Curve at Laguna) and your reference to the truck jumps into my head. Now in the valley I start up the other side in a section that has a short chute followed by a 180 degree blind corner (imagine T2 at Sears Point as a 180) and just as I clear the blind section - I am staring at the back of a lumbering dump truck in the middle of my line. The day before you posted that example I took that same corner with my knee almost on the deck but last night, I dropped back to 70% and was able to maneuver around the truck.
You never know how anything you post may make a difference to anyone else but this morning, me and my family thank you for that one.
Kevin
Hi Everybody,
It's great that there is a forum like this where we can learn and improve our skills on the track. But there's nothing like the feeling that you saved someone from serious injury, as in this case Hotfoot's advice helped Kevin out.
I know I'm riding with better control after my Level 1 training and this thread. I'd like to take this opportunity to thank Hot Foot and all the instructors at California Superbike School and Keith Code for keeping the school and this forum going in a meaningful way. If their advice has saved your bacon, please let them and us know.
Thanks,
Andy
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Bullet, thanks for all your hel.
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I try and ride my first lap or two at a new track without brakes or at worst very light brakes and with minimal gear changes (if I can get by with say 4th, I'll use that and just wind it on and off like a scooter). No leaning off typically, and nothing like knee down. I would say this would be about my 50% speed and I use this as my baseline. Over the next few laps I'll start to understand where the track goes, and over the period of the next session (if on a trackday), I'll build upto probably 90% speed in this session and thats essentially my baseline for refinement of things from there leveraging the drills.
If I have some drill aspect to work on, (and I normally do), I'll almost always try and work on no gears (staying high) and use as little brakes as I can get away with. Just helps me concentrate on it so much better.
Bullet
It's nice to know that even a coach has such a conservative approach towards a new track. Do you do this the day before the students arrive?
Thanks,
Andy
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Trail braking and loading the front is what you'd call much more advanced riding tech. It's fair to say that there is a very fine line between being on the bike, and having it tuck when people do trail brake. If you watch bike racing, you'll notice that the vast majority of racers who crash, crash on the way into the corner trail braking.
Bullet
(UK Riding coach)
Have you seen this?
They trail brake so hard that they seem on the verge of losing control on every turn, IMHO. Any comments?Andy
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Trail braking and loading the front is what you'd call much more advanced riding tech. It's fair to say that there is a very fine line between being on the bike, and having it tuck when people do trail brake. If you watch bike racing, you'll notice that the vast majority of racers who crash, crash on the way into the corner trail braking.
Regardless of whether you enter the first part of the corner trail braking, or on no throttle, you're still loading the front, though to differing degrees. From this point, regardless, you have to apply the throttle rule to get that stability. Racers do it, we all need to do it. You must not confuse the start of a turn to the mid and the end point.
Hope that helps clear it up for you?
Bullet
(UK Riding coach)
Hi Bullet,
I've learned that for street riding, that if the tires aren't biting, that loading the front tire a little will reduce centrifugal forces on the rear tire, while simultaneously giving the front tire enough weight for traction. On the street, I would do that by feathering the rear brake without changing the throttle or anything else about the bike. This also stretches out the fork a bit. And while this will slow down the bike a little, it won't slow it down as much as a high side or low side would. Doesn't California SuperBike School advocate changing the body position to do this?
Thanks,
Andy
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It seems to me that 70% is a somewhat artificial number used to help someone understand that you need to have something in reserve for emergencies when riding on the street. If that "70%" number doesn't have meaning to you, maybe it would be clearer to just go back to the basic idea behind it - could you stop or make a BIG steering correction, calmly, in an emergency, at the pace you are riding? If I was riding hard enough to make my tires squirm in a blind turn, I can assure you that I would not be prepared to make a big steering correction to avoid a car that suddenly appears on the wrong side of the road. Nor would I be comfortable taking those squirming tires over a patch of sand or gravel that I didn't see in the road. Maybe you could try using that as your gauge - do you have enough skills/traction/attention/etc left over to deal with a surprise road hazard?
Hi Hotfoot,
Wow! Your example of the blind curve and oncoming cage is the most extreme version of a biker's nightmare. Truth is, there could be zero reaction time in that case.
That image sure caught my attention! While I was waiting for an objective definition of 70%, and apparently there isn't one, your description is clear and concise from two different viewpoints: 1) traction and 2) reaction time. In order to continue to ride a motorcycle at all, I'll need to interpret your guidelines a little loosely:
"While in a curve, I should be able to make a big steering correction to the inside of the turn and/or come to a full stop within my sight/reaction distance for:
"a) a highly visible, stationary hazard, such as a stopped vehicle, or a fallen tree, -AND-
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a less visible road hazard such as a patch of dirt, sand, water, oil, or drywall screws."The beauty of what you suggest is that it by implication takes into account myriad variables including my physical and mental condition, bike's condition, road surface, weather, tires, etc. In addition, at my current skill level, it can be distilled into one easy to recall mantra, "70%=tires solidly planted and no hanging off!"
Thanks to everyone who contributed to the illumination of this issue for me. Thanks, Hotfoot, for your elegant solution which especially resonates for me.
Sincerely,
Andy
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Your puck is too far forward. Try ceramic pucks.
That image sure caught my attention! While I was waiting for an objective definition of 70%, and apparently there isn't one, your description is clear and concise from two different viewpoints: 1) traction and 2) reaction time.... 
a less visible road hazard such as a patch of dirt, sand, water, oil, or drywall screws."
Did My Preload Adjustment Cause My Crash At Sears?
in School Questions/General Discussion
Posted
Looks like tires to me. The tires were ridden hard. You were probably at the maximum slippage (about 15%) on the sides, which warmed up the shoulders, but the middle, with less stress, didn't get a chance to warm up. Then the sudden hard braking caused the low side.