[Can Quick Turn Be Overdone?]

Not trolling, just engaging in a lively discussion. May I say that I have played with this technique a LOT. When I say a LOT, I mean off and on for months--literally hours and hours and hours of riding time just on this one issue.

 

What I HEAR is that entering a corner at 45 mph and turning "slowly," say 1 second from full upright to full lean, the tires hardly notice, I can hardly hear them working. Going around again, same corner, same entry speed, I "quick turn" the bike, say half a second from full upright to full lean, and the tires let out a terrified groan. Clearly the tires are working much harder when quick turning the bike. I can't believe I'm the only one who has noticed this. If you haven't heard the exact same thing, I suggest you go out and play in traffic some more. :-) (Any excuse for a ride, right?)

 

So, it's raining in the Smokey Mountains and traction is low, which technique do you want to use? One that requires very little from the tire, or one that pushes the demand for traction? Or, you are on the track, you enter a turn after a long straight, you are going to be putting 1.1 Gs of force on your tires, any more than that and you'll slide out. Do you want to approach that limit all at once, or do you want to ease up to it with a sense of control?

 

Yes, lean angle = G forces, but just as you load the front tire to get maximum braking, I believe you must load the front tire to get maximum turning.

[Experiment For The Forum.]

As a coach I often ride around at a good pace without hanging off at all; if I don't NEED to hang off, I don't - it is too fatiguing to do it if you don't need it.

I'm slower than pig snot on a winter's day, but I just don't see the point of hanging off if I'm not running out of lean angle or traction.

 

I'd rather just sit there and enjoy the ride rather than crawl back and forth across the bike for no good reason. I just don't enjoy riding that way. Too old and stiff and tired, I guess.

 

For me, it's eyes up, watch the vanishing point and roll on the throttle.

[Foot Position And Rear Suspension Movement Video]

So Dylan, I'm looking at your body/foot position picture, and I see an imaginary line between the front tire and your knee, AND I see your foot at least 3"-4" above the pavement. At least it looks that way in the picture. So I'm thinking that's 3"-4" further down a rider could put their foot pegs. I know your not riding a touring bike, but why be more scrunched up and uncomfortable than you NEED to be?

[Can Quick Turn Be Overdone?]

I imagine the physical limit is pretty darned high. On the other hand, what's the point of turning faster and faster if you:

 

A. Don't need to turn that quickly

B. Scare your passenger half to death (sorry, thought we were talking about street riding for a second), or

C. Turn so quickly that you can't set your lean angle properly and either bounce up and down or scare your own self silly and blow the rest of the corner.

 

Lately, I've been seeing how SLOWLY I can turn and find I'm more comfortable leaning slowly and therefore I can lean further (carry more speed?) into the corners. But maybe that's just me.

[Getting Locked On To The Tank]

I noticed this on the ST1300--as soon as I climbed on, my legs locked right in. The Concours 14 is nice, but I jut don't get that same "locked in" feeling.

[New Member]

Welcome to the forum. Nice photo--you look pretty comfortable on that bike. Sometimes it is hard to know what you are doing wrong, but a good coach will spot it right away. You can also learn a lot just from riding behind better riders.

[No More Lurking Around]

Welcome, Tyler.

 

Nice to hear from you. You've done three levels. What would you like to work on if/when you do Level 4? Just curious.

[Commitment]

"Stress comes from worry, worry comes from lack of commitment.

You quit worrying and get busy once you've committed to anything!"

 

Now THAT is something to think about!

 

[Why Are We Weighting The Outside Peg?]

Ayup. I agree with the others--locking into the tank, even making solid contact with the tank, really helps relax the arms, relax the eyes and steer the bike. Weird but true.

[Back Protectors]

I'm afraid I'm still riding around with the foamy back protectory thingy in my mesh jacket. I keep looking for something more that doesn't cost a bundle, but I'd LIKE to have something that protects my back and my front. The SPIDI Defender Armor looks interesting.

[Charging The Turns]

Try this:

 

Instead of picking a Braking point, pick a Get Off the Brakes point. That way you can brake just as hard as you want and enjoy that rush of deceleration, have confidence that you can make your turn in and apex, and be in good shape to charge the straight.

 

If you like to point and shoot the bike, think of the turn as a little breather. In other words, think of getting off the brakes and around the corner as giving yourself time to take the slack out of the drive train in preparation for that rush of acceleration. Use the pause AFTER the braking is done to point the bike where you want to go and easy on some throttle.

[Throttle And Lean Angle, At The Same Time.]

Good suggestion, Cobie.

 

I've been trying to listen to the top riders and how they use the throttle in the corners. Of course, the first thing is that listening for useful information during TV coverage of AMA Superbike, Sportbike or MotoGP TV is tough. They switch shots constantly and the sound never seems to match up well with one certain rider or even a small group of riders. Still, from what I can tell about throttle control As A Group is that most of the riders roll off down to the apex, then roll on. I couldn't really hear any of the riders lean in and roll on before the apex. I did sometimes hear the throttle pause in chicanes or complicated turns.

 

So, what does that mean? I have crappy listening skills? Maintenance throttle is hard to hear? The way you ride for fastest lap time is different from the way you ride to stay in front of another rider? "As soon as possible" can mean after the apex?

 

I'm not used to listening for this sort of thing, so I think I may be missing a lot of information that you would hear. Still, to my untrained ear, it didn't sound like any of these guys was getting on the throttle too early. To me, it sounded like maybe they were too late. At the same time, the lean angles were so extreme that I don't know if Anybody could give the bikes much throttle before the apex.

 

What do you hear?

[Rider Training]

My body doesn't always work well. I'll never be a world champion. Even if I, one day, do some club racing, I will probably never win a race. Still, I have already used the CSS rider technology to cut my survival reactions and become a better, smoother, safer rider. I rarely chop the throttle mid corner now. So, I'm not suddenly running out of ground clearance. I use the front brake harder, so my stopping distances are shorter. I keep my eyes up, most of the time. Even when my vision gets stuck on a corner entrance, I quickly recognize the problem and know how to fix it. These are real world results. Even my wife enjoys riding with me more. We don't konk each other in the head much anymore, and when we get into the corners, sometimes she says, "Go ahead. Lean it over more. I don't mind." I'll never be a world champion, but the improvements in my riding have been measurable and much appreciated.

[Throttle And Lean Angle, At The Same Time.]

May I just say that Throttle Control Rule #1 is NOT: "Never add lean angle and throttle at the same time." TCR#1 is: "Once the throttle is cracked on, it is rolled on smoothly, and constantly through the remainder of the turn." Maybe it's just me, but I tend to think the problems from Too Early are not necessarily as bad as the problems with Too MUCH!

 

1. 
    
   
2. If I roll off, lean over, roll on--all I've done is make the bike handle by getting the weight onto the back tire.
   
3. If I roll off, lean over, roll on too hard--then the bike may want to stand up, run wide or slide the rear tire.
   

 

Even if I wait until the bike is fully turned and pointed where I want it to go Before I roll on the throttle, I can still get in trouble from rolling on too MUCH power. Also, some turns (curves more than corners) are taken flat out. No roll off. Rolling on Too Early simply does not apply. But I can still get in trouble if I enter the curve too fast--with Too MUCH speed.

 

So, the way I think about it is that Too Early means:

 

1. 
    
   
2. At the wrong speed for the turn,
   
3. While the bike is in the process of leaning over, or
   
4. Before the bike is FULLY turned.
   

 

Wrong speed is less than ideal and means either I'm going too slow, trying to catch up and apt to add too much power and overwhelm the rear tire; or I'm going too fast and will try to add more power anyway, because I'm "supposed to," and get scared, slam the throttle closed and get the whole bike out of shape.

 

Adding throttle while the bike is moving down and in the process of leaning over is just tricky. Even if I only add a little throttle, and I am nowhere near sliding, it's hard to be smooth. When I try this, the throttle almost always get slapped open upsetting the bike and giving me at least a little scare. Also, since I'm trying to do two things at once (control my decent down to my desired lean angle, and roll on the throttle), my attention tends to come back to the bike, or even inside my body. I stop seeing well and so, do not do a good job setting my lean angle or speed. To me, this loss of visual focus is the biggest problem with getting on the gas Too Early.

 

Tons of racers open the throttle after the bike's lean angle has been set, but before the apex, where they will add more lean angle. As far as I can tell, this has become the standard technique. Almost every pro road racer I see is either on the brakes all the way to the apex, or they lean in, rolled on, then pause the roll on for a second as they dip down to the apex. Trail braking and pausing the roll on both take a good deal of finesse, but don't automatically mean the rider is going to crash. Since these guys are racing, they may not even be breaking TCR#1 since they did get on the gas as soon as they could, under the circumstances.

[Experiments With Turn In]

Hello Bullet and All,

 

Thanks for the feedback and the warnings, but I never said "roll on the throttle BEFORE turning in," and I'm talking about the turn-in, not the roll on so TCR1 literally does not apply. Since almost everyone has misread or misunderstood my question, let me see if I can reduce it to simplest terms:

 

1. 
    
   
2. Increasing speed + Increasing lean angle = Bad. Everyone agrees.
   
3. Reducing speed + Increasing lean angle = Good. Almost everyone agrees.
   
4. Maintaining speed + Increasing lean angle = THIS is my question--okay or not okay?
   

I'm really talking about the application of TCR2--remember that one? I didn't think this was such a hard question. I'll shut up now.

[Experiments With Turn In]

Thanks for all your feedback. I appreciate your taking the time to respond. I have been out playing in traffic for about a week now, and here is what I learned:

 

1. 
    
   
2. It was fun trying to time everything perfectly and roll off the throttle just before the turn in. It worked fine. The bike liked to turn that way and it's was not hard to do. At the same time, any advantage gained by using momentum to change the steering geometry seemed small at the speeds I was riding.
   
3. Making an effort to enter corners on the brakes was a pain in the seat warmer. Again, I may have gained a small advantage in turn-in speed, but I had to enter corners hotter than I normally would in order to need to use the brakes. On the other hand, I did trail brake all the way to the apex in the second corner of a downhill right-left corkscrew. I needed to do it and had no problems using the technique when necessary.
   
4. Setting my speed early and running into the corner on neutral or maintenance throttle worked fine in almost every corner I tried it on. This technique allowed me to setup for the turn, then keep my eyes on the vanishing point. With my eyes up, my mind relaxed and nothing else to do, I was better able to subconsciously calculate my speed, turn point and roll on. By letting my eyes guide me, instead of my technique, I believe I actually rode faster and with less effort. My exit speed was certainly higher.
   

 

I believe it is okay, even beneficial, to have a standard technique you use for most turns most of the time. I also see great value in knowing the other methods and being able to use them as necessary.

 

I hope you have a wonderful ride this weekend!

[Experiments With Turn In]

In this hypothetical example, both motorcycles are going the exact same speed (60 mph) when they are leaned into the corner.

 

• 
   
  
• Rider A has looked ahead and judged that he wants to enter the turn at 60 mph. He is using enough throttle to maintain his speed of 60 mph until, and while, he tips in. (So the throttle is slightly OPEN while he leans the bike, but he's at a safe speed and not ADDING any throttle.)
  
• Rider B also leans the bike over going 60 mph, but he would be OFF the throttle, decelerating and slightly loading the front tire, while he leans the bike.
  
• After leaning the bike (getting the bike turned), both riders would then roll on the throttle as per TCR1.
  

So long as the bike isn't bouncing around on the suspension, I don't think the bike cares if you are ON the throttle of OFF the throttle when you turn, provided you are going the correct speed. Am I wrong? Or am I, perhaps, missing the point and begging for trouble?

 

On the other hand, I think Rider A would probably be mentally calmer and more relaxed on the bike. Do you agree?

[Experiments With Turn In]

If I am already at an appropriate speed for a corner, and I am maintaining that speed as I turn in, is there any reason I need to be OFF the throttle?

 

For example, two bikers approach a corner. Biker A sets his speed early, he's going 60 mph 20 feet before the turn point and when he reaches his turn point, he maintains a steady throttle and tips it in. Biker B is going 65mph 20 feet before the turn point and is still on the brakes. He manages to reach the turn point at 60 mph and tips in off the throttle and off the brakes.

 

Clearly biker A has less drama, but does either bike have a handling or safety advantage and why?

[Lines]

I scared myself on a corner today. I was rushing to the dentist--grabbing a cancelled appointment. When I came to a sweeping turn onto a side street, I was only going about 5 mph faster than normal and nowhere near the bike's lean limits. I turned in, finally looked up and said, "Man am I going fast. I'll never get it turned." From Keith's book, I knew this was a survival reaction, but what did I really do wrong?

 

Honestly, I wasn't really watching where I was going. My vision was low, and my body was out of position for the turn. From reading "Twist 2," I knew enough to look for the exit and turn the darned bike, but almost any visual technique would have worked better than gazing vaguely forward.

 

I thought about this some more as I was driving my car this evening. If you get scared in a car, you can push yourself "away" from the danger and still steer the vehicle. You can turn a steering wheel with you arms straight. If you get scared and push away from a motorcycle's handle bars, you can't steer the bike. To steer a bike, and make it lean, you must bend your arms and actually push and pull on those grips. It works a lot better when you see the turn coming and make sure you're ready.

[Countersteering: Push Or Pull]

Hello 08Missle. You're onto something--the biceps have much better leverage and strength to pull heavy weights than the triceps you use to push with. Why? The triceps tendons have to go over the elbow joint so the muscles have to work against that leverage. So, pulling can feel much stronger. At the same time, it takes very little strength to turn a motorcycle (at least till you start going really fast).

 

As you approach a turn, you might try tightening your abs (of all things) and allowing your body to bend forward toward the bars. This will unlock your arms and allow them to turn the bike with very little sense of effort or even intention. Look at people's avatar photos, and you'll see their elbows are well bent when they're leaned over. The first lean is forward toward the bars, then down into the corner. At least, that's how it feels to me.

[Weighting A Footpeg - Inside Or Outside?]

Nice picture, Mike. Is that you?

 

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic, Mike. I think Casey Stoner's position looks pretty good. He is keeping the outside knee pointed forward and pressed against the tank. This gives him plenty of room to lean off to the inside. He looks comfortable and in control. He's not crossed up. His head, eyes, shoulders and hips are all pointed in the direction of travel. My impression is that Stoner has a good solid lower body position that allows him to lean his upper body forward and in toward the inside handgrip more than some other riders. It's more than I need at my level, but I'd be happy with Stoner's riding position.

 

What I don't see is Stoner opening his hips up so far that his outside knee and toes actually point out, away from the bike. His lower body position is not so extreme that he has to grip the frame above the outside footpeg with his heel and hold himself on the bike with is leg biceps. I've seen pros ride that way and it looks very tiring and uncomfortable. The leg biceps are fast-twitch high-strength fibers that fatigue quickly. You wouldn't want to ride 3 or 4 laps that way then hit a bump. If I tried that, I'd be rolling down the track waving bye-bye to my race bike.

[Bott Novice Championship]

Congrats, RodRob. Well done! Gotta love those Buells. I really wanted a Cafe Racer, but couldn't get the cash together before they folded. I assume you've been around bikes for awhile, you being a champ and all, so I just wonder if you notice a lot of difference riding a big twin versus a 4 banger?

[Weighting A Footpeg - Inside Or Outside?]

I think what Nick was getting at was moving your weight to the inside of the turn so the bike can remain more upright. If you are sitting at your computer, try this:

 

1. 
    
   
2. Put your feet flat on the floor (they might need to be outside the legs of your chair--a hard chair might work better too)
   
3. Leave your hands on the keyboard/bars, then lift your butt off your seat and "hang off" toward the right side of your chair
   
4. Now try the left side
   
5. Now try and get "crossed up," with your butt one way and your shoulders the other way
   

 

So, that was fun. Right? But what is your butt telling you?

 

• 
   
  
• Where is the tension in your legs?
  
• If you are hanging off the right side, which quad gets tired first, right leg or left leg?
  
• In order to move without putting weight on your arms, what do you have to do with your upper body?
  
• If you keep your legs still, how much can you shift your weight, just by leaning forward and onto one butt cheek?
  
• Is it more comfortable to tense your back, or your abs?
  

 

Granted, centrifugal force changes this dynamic a bit by holding you down in the seat. At the same time, you can still feel interesting things happening that you might not notice with everything else happening on your bike.

[Anyone Have Experience With Cornerspin?]

I live in the Carolinas and am also interested in Corner Spin. They have a sister class called Corner Speed, but honestly, it would have to be something special to beat CSS. If anyone decides they want to go, let me know. I'm kind of a slug, but if our schedules match, maybe we can get together.

[World's Best Road?]

The Tail of the Dragon is about a day's ride from my house. I road it two up with my wife on our Burgman and had a great time. This is one of my

. It shows a man on a Goldwing, but it's shot from a tripod bungee corded onto the top of his trailer. You'll notice a nice smooth ride and a fair amount of lean available on that big touring bike.