Ventodue
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Posts posted by Ventodue
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First off, all my sympathies for the crash. Never good, but let's try and pull some positive out of it.
Well ... it's always so much easier to criticise someone's else's riding
. But seeing as you asked ..How do you rate your throttle control? For me, I hear very little, or a much delayed, roll-on after you initiate your turns. Which, if it's true, means you're asking a lot from that front tire - and it's your front that lets go.
To my mind, you're charging your turns. Cracking it down the straight is all very fine (altho' personally I make a point of slowing down on the straights ...); but you need to be fully in control by the time you get to the turns. Have a look at the rear view camera: you'll see a couple of riders* on what I suspect are machines with much less top end than yours, but who take the turns with considerably more ease and precision - and do so more quickly
.* Not least the guy who was behind you when you crashed.
HTH.
Craig
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I find much depends on the tire, its make and its condition. I've been low-sided by a worn front Bridgestone with no warning at all (except that I damn well knew it was worn, but decided to give it one last outing. How stupid was that?).
But a decent tire, properly warmed up, will squirm and wimper, twitch and wobble. Not much, but normally enuf ... I can't say for chassis respnse/feedback.
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'nuff said ...
"Over the past 48 hours my riding craft has easily tripled. My turn-point and line sighting happens more fluently, my throttle control is more intuitive, and my body position is honed in.
I’ve moved from fairly competent on the street to a capable rider on the track, in two days."
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Heavier guys on stock bikes "go faster" in corners because of this: their weight overwhelms/counters the stock "underdamped" rebound damping. Technically, it's not underdamped for them in the corner because of the higher G forces loaded on the tires and fork throughout the corner due to centrifugal forces.That's an interesting comment, ktk-ace. Never really thought of it before, but ...Me, I'm a 7 stone weakling and yes, I've noticed that a number of my 'stockier'
road-riding buddies enter corners faster than I do. However, by mid-corner, I'm already up their exhaust pipes (if I'm not careful) and before the corner unwinds, I'm long gone. (Like I said, I've never thought of it before), but maybe suspension set-ups this is part of the reason ... -
Well done, Laura - many congratulations! I can well appreciate the amount of dedication it must have taken. Inspirational - as well as a fine advertisement for the CSS approach!
And thanks too for your commitment to this Forum. I make a point of reading your postings, always well reasoned and clear (the one above on 'Winning by Not Crashing' is a typical example
). Much appreciated - please 'Keep on Keeping On ...Craig
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'Like others before me ..'
I see problems with your corner entry speeds. For me, those problems are arising because a) you're not confident about your brakes;
(possibly/largely?) as a result, you're not paying enuf attention to both fixing your turn points and seeing your apexes. Put it another way, you're spending too much of Keith's, '$10 worth of attention' on something which shouldn't be costing much at all, leaving you insufficient funds to spend on more important stuff.You've got to get to love your brakes. Because if they don't inspire full confidence, you will always start slowing too soon. Knowing you can slow your bike down, as you want and every time is critical. Reading what you write about your current set-up, I suspect you may now need to make some equipment changes, if only to give you a renewed sense of confidence in them.
Then, once you're confident in their ability to stop you, go back to basics and do some No Braking laps, concentrating on turn points and apexes. And you'll realise that this 'Slowing down for corners' business isn't actually THAT important anyway!
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Lnewqban, on 16 Jun 2014 - 3:05 PM, said:
Thanks, Tyler!
That's an awesome article. Thanks for posting the link!
Ditto. I particularly like this 'Keith-ism':
"You can't steer effectively with the front wheel off the ground ..."
No argument there ...
Back to topic: FWIW, I asked Lnewqban's question when I did one of my CSS days. Andy Ibbott's reply was exactly as Tyler's, i.e. "Yes, in theory, no in practice."
Craig
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It has to fit = be comfortable. It should be as quite as possible. Weight bothers me less - hey, you can't have it all.
Price? Well, how many heads did you come with? Appearance? Who cares?
= Schuberth S1.
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Just on the speed and risk thing ...
When I attended my first CSS school, the Instructor blithely tossed out to the audience, "Well, no-one came here to ride slower, did they?!?"
Ha!Ha!Ha! Big guffaws of manly laughter ... And true, of course. But until that moment, I hadn't even thought about being there to ride quicker. I was there to learn to ride better. Which for me meant - and still means - with more control, with more consciousness of what I was doing or should be doing. So, in fact, actually reducing the risks inherent in motorcycling.
So I'm with Eric. Motorcycling for me is not a speed thing. Frankly, I have as much fun on my little bikes as on a track bike. I learnt a long time ago that I don't like going over 140mph. To be honest, I just don't see (or process the visual signals) well enuf. But nailing that bend just as it should be nailed - ah, there's the buzz! Hell, I can even laugh myself silly on a push-bike.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Craig
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Many thanks to both Hotfoot (posts 29 & 30) and Mugget (post 26) - clearest explanations I've ever read
.(Inspired by this Forum, I'm currently working hard on getting my braking and turning co-ordination better. Curiously with 'No Brakes', I seem to get it about right. But when I go back to using the brakes, I still have to fight over-braking and entering too slow ... Damn! Bad habits are hard to break! But it ain't gonna beat me ...
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I'm with ktk-ace on this one, i.e.
1) Throttle control
2) Steering
3) Vision
... so just to throw something new into the mix. Now, I don't know whether these really qualify as 'skills', but:
1. A desire to get better.
2. A positive attitude towards learning.
You can't get very far without those ...
. And I'm sure we all know plenty of riders who don't seem to have much of either -
What we learn from CSS and Twist II is that the IDEAL scenario is to be tapering off the brakes as you approach your turn point, so that you are letting off the brake as you turn in the bike - that way you trade braking/deceleration forces for turning forces, so that the front end stays compressed throughout. However, if you brake hard, then fully release the brake BEFORE your turn point, and then turn, you can get the effect of the front compressing, then releasing (rising back up) then compressing again at turn-in, which is an unsettling feeling and can cause the rider to think he/she can't enter the turn any faster. Additionally, it makes the bike's turn-in more sluggish; a compressed front suspension will give a sharper steering response.
Perfecting the timing can really help smooth out the ride on turn entries.
Thanks for those precisions, Hotfoot. Very accurate, very useful ...
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The articles linked in the OP explain the importance of a smooth transition from deceleration to acceleration (transferring weight from front to rear) during the turn (or so I understand)
Well, not really by my reading. I suggest that what Keith is talking about being smooth at ALL times, not just when picking up speed or just during turns. But that said ..
For short-sharp turns, I cannot do it properly; there is certain jerkiness in that transition (maybe some slack from the transmission, chain, throttle, don't know for sure).
Well, short sharp ones always risk being a bit 'snatchy' simply 'cos the time available to do everything is a bit tight. But here's a question which may help get to the bottom of this:
What exactly do you feel is not smooth? Is it you, the rider? Or are your actions on the controls super smooth, but the reaction of the bike isn't?
If you're not sure which it is, one way to try and pin it down is to run the same tricky turn on a different bike and see what gives. Or loan your bike to another rider and see what he/she thinks.
If it IS the bike, then Cobie has already alluded to what might be one potential cause, especially if the bike's fuel-injected: throttle cable adjustment. Or it could also be that your FI system is intrinsically snatchy. Or it may just need some fine tuning. Or maybe your suspension set-ups are off ...
Alternatively, if it's you the rider, try and analyse your riding. Which is very hard to do for most of us (it's why we need coaches!); but are you giving the bike time to settle after you release the brake? Are you, for example, careful to release the brake gradually, not in a rush? And are you careful to get that little, little bit of maintenance throttle before opening up?
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The easiest way to answer is, SR#7 along with the occational visit from SR#2. When braking, I have learned that I am applying the brakes too soon and too hard. This leaves me entering the turn too slow.
Could it be that I do not know how fast I could have taken the turn?
How do you determine how fast you can take a turn?
Once I feel comfortable with my entry speed and can consistently make that turn without using the brakes, then I can start working with the brakes to have the entry speed set the same every time.
Thanks for the explanation, ScrmnDuc. OK, I see where you're coming from.
That said, my only caution would be to avoid the trap which I see a lot of riders fall into. They stop using their brakes all together when approaching turns! Indeed, for some, it becomes a sign of good riding to NOT use the brakes! Which is crazy ... Instead, they rely on excessively early roll-offs to set their corner entry speeds. And, unsurprisingly, those corner entry speeds don't go up...
I leave it for an instructor to say otherwise. But unless I'm mistaken, the benefit - and indeed, purpose - of the "No Brakes" drill is to build your confidence about how much speed you can take into a corner, once you understand what quick counter-steering does. It should be a liberating exercise -"Wow! I can go THAT quick into this turn!".
Braking too early/too hard suggests you're not confident about how much speed you can carry at corner entry. So, yeh: Keep up the 'No Brakes' drill. IMO, it's best done on track, because that's where you get the chance to repeatedly tackle the same corner. And it's repetition in an controlled environment that will gradually build your confidence.
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1) I'm at a point where I try to set my entry speed without using the brakes.
Why?
As to Lnewqban's original question, I'm with the others:
1. I get any deceleration done, by rolling-off and/or braking, BEFORE initiating the turn. I try to avoid avoid trail-braking for the reasons we all know. Maybe this is old-fashioned, but it works for me.
2. I get back on the throttle asap after the turn-in (and as "evenly, smoothly, constantly" as I can!
). This fixes the suspension in that perfect 40/60 suspension loading that we're all aiming for ...3. I hold that throttle thru the turn, and only start accelerating once I've got my exit.
So there's no real, 'Transition from Deceleration to Acceleration', while in the turn. Instead it goes:
Decelerate-Hold Steady-Accelerate.
And that's the Code way - unless I've got it wrong
HTH
Craig
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... you may have to stand the bike up, brake to slow down, and then turn it again.
+1. On the road, you should never be so committed to a blind bend that you can't lean it a bit more . But, should the unimagineable ever happen
, standing the bike up, braking and re-steering is your final option.On the track, you won't get caught out by a decreasing radius, of course.
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Front end tucks are horrible. As others have said, it's basically down to overloading the front tire, with over-braking and going off-throttle being the main causes.
IME, some bikes are more prone to it than others. When I'm out road-riding one of mine, a long wheel-base Ducati, I'm very careful to limit the amount of front brake when negotiating tight down-hill bends. And make sure I'm clamped on with my knees.
Because, if not .....
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Sweet, Eirik. Nice work, nice write-up - thanks.
And I agree about getting on the throttle early - I can still tend to find it annoyingly
counter-instinctive, especially if I've not been riding for a while. But ride a few familiar bends, FEELING for the rear wheel traction as mugget says, and the correct reflex starts to take over ... . And then it's just all fun!Craig
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I'm seeing reports of "a broken swingarm" as the culprit...
Yep. That's what the TV commentators here in France said as soon as it happened. And now confirmed by the rider - quote:"We had a technical failure in the swingarm."
Go http://www.motogp.co...+yamaha+factory
Craig
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Hi Eirik,
Well, it's kinda mean to compare your brother to Hailwood et al ...
. But, that said:It's all about corner speed, right?* And, looking at the video, that's what your bother lacks - on entry, mid-corner and exit
.Lots of reasons why (soft braking, turn point too early, slow steering, poor throttle control, twisted body position, no pick-up …). But a couple of days at CSS would certainly have him moving in the right direction.
Btw, that bike looks too powerful for that track. It's very rarely about horse power, as you know. I reckon Hotfoot on her 250 would nip round there way quicker than most of us
!Craig
* And Mike in particular had a reputation for never slowing down
. You can see that demonstrated in the IoM video - for which, thanks btw. -
Excellent, Dylan - some of the best 'Before' and 'After' shots I've ever seen! Very impressive, and congratulations to Theta!
Craig
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Hi Dae,
I was thinking about this thread while out road riding today and I think Hotfoot has (as so often! Thank you, Hotfoot
) put her finger on it.To be able to enter a corner faster, you've got to be able to steer quicker. No 'Ifs, Buts or Maybes': as Hotfoot points out, Keith has already said it: "Your quick turn abilities determine your corner entry speed. Period."
So work on your quick steering. And by 'work', I mean that your objective should be to build your confidence in your ability to do it. 'cos anyone can do it, but first you have to believe you can. Try steering round cones in a car park, if necessary.
As to the danger of loosing the front end, I asked Andy Ibbot the stupid question, maybe the one is that is in the back of your mind, i.e. "Is it possible to steer too quickly?" His answer was categoric: "No".
Anyway, HTH.
Craig
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I'm not sure you got a full answer on this. When we are talking about hanging-off, <snip>
Make sense?
Does to me, Pete - thanks
.I should say that I did eventually get round to taking Cobie's advice and try weighting the inside, just to see what happens. This was only on the road, not track, so I couldn't be too scientific about it. But I did find it pretty awkward. As expected, it contributed nothing to the steering; but it also felt quite wrong. I found myself gripping the bars too much 'cos fixing on to the tank was hard and ... eurgh! I don't know. It was just wrong ...
So, in conclusion, I don't really get Nick Ienatsch's advice. Sure, you have to support yourself a bit on the inside peg. But I don't think that amounts to "weighting " it. But I do know that I can feel myself, thru the sole of my boot, pushing really quite hard on the outside peg, certainly on anything that requires a bit of steering effort.
"Make sense?"
Craig
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Pretty sure we are the only ones that have that bike. The UK and Oz branches have some paddock restrcitions that we don't have.
If you guys ever get over here, make sure you ride that thing, it really is an eye opener.
Nice offer, Cobie - thanks. It's just seems rather a long way to go to ride a bike that won't steer ...
Anyways, back to the question. (Seeing as it's still raining here
), can I just confirm what I understand Pete and Johnny to be saying, i.e. that weighting the inside peg (as advocated by NI) doesn't, in reality, deliver much/any steering benefit. But putting weight on the outside peg, so that it acts as pivot point (like wot Keith says), helps make the bike easier to steer?Is that it, or am I still swiming round in circles?
Thanks again.
Craig
. But seeing as you asked ..
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road-riding buddies enter corners faster than I do. However, by mid-corner, I'm already up their exhaust pipes (if I'm not careful) and before the corner unwinds, I'm long gone. (Like I said, I've never thought of it before), but maybe suspension set-ups this is part of the reason ...
(possibly/largely?) as a result, you're not paying enuf attention to both fixing your turn points and seeing your apexes. Put it another way, you're spending too much of Keith's, '$10 worth of attention' on something which shouldn't be costing much at all, leaving you insufficient funds to spend on more important stuff.
) 
counter-instinctive, especially if I've not been riding for a while. But ride a few familiar bends, FEELING for the rear wheel traction as mugget says, and the correct reflex starts to take over ... 
Coasting = Maintenance Throttle?
in Cornering and Techniques
Posted
And Keith goes on to say this:
"In real time and space, each 0.1-second that you stay away from the gas is over one bikelength of distance in a 60mph turn. In fact, it is 8.8 feet". (Page 26).
That's a scary amount to lose, added up over the turns. You'll never gain it back.
Me, I'm a terror for delaying getting back on the gas. But I'm trying to get better, I'm really am ..