Alfred.Rodriguez
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Posts posted by Alfred.Rodriguez
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Hi Dylan
Nice video on the foot position when hanging off...
And I thought I was strange when I did it that way... Here is a photo of me about 2-years back.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/10697702/FootPosition-KneeDown.JPG
Been doing it then, and still doing it now. I dont know - but personally, it feels more comfortable, and that I could open my leg wider/extend me knee further.
Cheers!
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Im trying out a new track this Friday - let me see if I could put any of these to practice.
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Due to the climate here in Japan, I haven't had any spirited riding, etc. since Ive gotten back from the Las Vegas 2-Day Camp two-months back... Any "practice" are mostly mental (visualization) or those that can be done on the streets (Wide View)...
Well, Im going to be getting my chance to practice what Ive learned this coming Friday - my second (my first track experience was 2-months back with CSS) track experience at the Tsukuba Circuit (Play Station Gran Turismo, X-Box Forza games, etc.).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsukuba_Circuit
That brings me to my question -- What is the best/recommended way to learn a NEW track?
Im thinking following the same format as the CSS -
1. Begin with minimal gears, and no brakes.
2. Bring enough as much understanding of the track (Turn Points, Reference Points)
3. Wide View (see the track from the entire width)
4. Slowly bring up speed with light braking
5. Progressing to full gears and brakes
Albeit, Im unsure since:
- I only have 3-heats of 20-mins each / avg record laps for the track is 1' 15"
- I cant trace the course/record line with minimal gears and no brakes (Id be in the way - Im in the "First Timers" class)
- Im not being spoon fed on the Turn Points (though I understand the criteria for good TPs)
Though I could up YouTube videos or ask some friends - I would like to see it from a "rider technology"-perspective rather than from "friendly... destructive advice..."
Much appreciated... Thanks!
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And if you want to read a good book that covers MotoGP and the IOM. Pick up "RIng of FIre". It is an interesting contrast between the old days of Ago and Mike the Bike, and the modern days since it became MotoGP.
Indeed an interesting read... Especially just before the start of the MotoGP session, oh... Losail has been concluded.
I downloaded it to my Kindle several weeks back!
*thumbs up*
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Hhhhmm.... Assuming warmed up tires and a non-slippery pavement, like a track, as well - the answer should be most probably NOT.
But still, it doesnt avoid thoe SRs...
Essentially, would like to quantify the conditions for AQAP and/or as the situations would allow.
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You also mentioned it might be risky to try increasing the RATE of steering... what risk do you see in steering the bike more quickly?
Well, Id say - particularly those that still have to build skill - _worry_ of the bike sliding, falling, etc. when steering the bike _too much_
How fast can we actually steer?
I know from the TOTW2 DVD that there were several reasons when _NOT_ to quick flick; but still not having that confidencr definitely triggers SRs!
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same here... same here... getting the confidence to get the quick turns/quick flicks is indeed a long road ahead...
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The discussion on trail braking seeems to come up on the forum about once every six months. If you do a search for trail braking you will find tons of results. Here are a couple, for example:
http://forums.superb...+trail +braking
http://forums.superb...king#entry25553
And here is something Keith wrote in response to a question about trail braking, it pretty much covers it all:
>>>
....
Indeed, trail braking is much deeper than just braking in longer/later into the turn...
Hotfoot: Now that you mention that this topic comes once every six moths, and that Cobie is mentioning that there are also some misconceptions - wouldnt it be good to have Keith's summary up above PINNED to the Cornering Forum?
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We have heard this, that we don't use/approve, etc. of this technique.
Not actually correct, we know (and train) riders in how to use the brakes. If it causes the rider to carry the brakes very far into the turn, delaying when he can stabilize the bike (getting back onto the throttle), then it is more a minus than a plus. But there are situations where it for sure has to be used (passing), long late apex turns, etc.
CF
Hhhmm.... Now that I jog my memory - I think Turn #10 CCW in LV could be taken trail braking, since it is coming from a fast back straight heading into a tight corner...
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I know trail braking isn't an approved technique in TOTW, and I have no experience with, or knowledge of, it. If it's considered off-topic here, my apologies.
This video, of a fellow called Yellow Wolf running the Tail of the Dragon on a Goldwing, apparently shows pretty effective trail braking on this road.
The rider following and filming is also apparently trail braking, though he's not able to keep up the speed so easily.
Is there a standard-form technique?
Am I wrong in what I'm seeing?
thx.
There is essentially, IMO, NO standard form technique... It is like askinh which is better for self-defense? Karate or Kun-Fu?
Technique depends on several factors, ie., type of bike, rider skillset and experience, type of riding, rider personality and tendencies, time of the day/weather, riding environment, etc. Some schools teach it; while others do not... But it doesnt mean it is _absolutely_ wrong.
Personally, when in the twisties/canyons in Japan, or once in Southern California - I tend to trail brake. But when I did the 2-Day Camp in Las Vegas last February - no trail braking... Just a quick turn in, straighten the corner, then roll on the throttle...
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Hehehe... Allow me to act like an instructor for once...
- What happens to the geometry of the bike when you brake?
- What happens then when trail braking?
- What aspects of the ride is affected by the change of geometry?
- Are those aspects in line with bike technology?
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In a nutshell, trail braking is being on the brakes longer into the turn than you are supposed to, to scrub off speed.Imagine the turning sequence - Off the gas, brake, downshift, turn in, on the gas and exit.
If you entered too fast, you want to slow down or else will run wide.Then you don't go off the brakes before you turn in, but still apply some braking power on the front, rear, or both.Racers say trail braking is an important technique.You should learn it.It has helped me correct mistakes.However, if you understand cornering theory, you won't be making mistakes and won't need to trail the brake.Don't make mistakes on purpose and use the brakes to make up for them.It is one of the things you use to recover from errors.
As for the video, unless you see the brake light i doubt you can "see" him braking.
Actually, trail braking is much more deeper than that...
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Rossi actually thinks the TT more insane than MotoGP...
Well, history would vouch for that - it was actually taken out of the MotoGP calendar because it was much dangerous...
To answer your question, if it were 1st April - Id say "YES."
Cheers!
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Faster rate of "Quick Turn", a quick application of the "Hook Turn" to get you on your line and both the " Wide View" and "3 Step" would be useful in keeping that line on the pavement
Tyler
Excellent, well done! And if the turn is the first in a series you could also use the Level 3 understanding of attack angles to help adjust the following turns.
Of course, staying relaxed on the bars throughout (not always easy when you've made an error or had an unexpected shifting problem!) will help enormously in keeping control of the bike and not compounding the problem.
Tyler has beaten me to the answers... But indeed - except for the Hook Turn (Level 3?), these are what Ive learned in Level 1&2, and NEED TO PRACTICE going forward...
One point, however, there would be a limit to the lean rate for the Quick Turn, right? Wouldnt it be risky that if a corner is indeed blown, to try increasing the Flick rate? Similarly for Lean Angles?
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We have no parking space at all! All lots,side roads,footpaths are full of parked vehicles.I have seen videos of people going in circles, getting the body position right, because that's the last to fall in place before you properly hang off.The lean angle and speed are more easily gotten right.In retrospect, i should have asked about body position.
If that were the case, then the questions you should ask would be:
- better throttle control
- better brake control
- better vision skills
- line selection
rather than brake-throttle blip-downshift and hangoff/knee downs...
Even at the CSS - Body Position is taken up in Level 3...
For starters, you should focus on keeping a RELAXED (most people, when brought to attention, have a DEATH grip on the bars) nuetral position, or at the most, about a 5-cm shift of your butt to the inside of the turn (quite advantageous for today's tires; depending on the type of bike, of course)...
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I think the basic premise in this discussion is that it would be handy to be able to use the clutch skillfully to recover from an error - like a missed shift in a turn.
But, there are also a lot of OTHER skills that also come in handy when you blow a turn and have to recover.
So, my two cents is that putting in some racing hours on a mini bike, like an NSR50, is a great way to encounter a wide variety of racing situations and gain experience in handling them, at lower speeds on a (potentially) more forgiving bike, at low cost and in a friendly environment. Personally I was a lot more willing to try some stuff, make and recover from errors, and push limits in my NSR races than I ever would be on the BMW. I never crashed, but I did have some goofy things happen that gave me a LOT more confidence in my ability to recover without falling down - like having my throttle not release going into a corner! (That's a situation where a quick hand on the clutch is valuable!)
Definitely PLUS ONE on that Hotfoot... Hence, I did recommend a smaller bike for Stroker to practice techniques (in another thread - a Honda Ape, for example).
Personally, I learned proper hangoff/knee drag NOT with a big bike; but with a rented 100-cc bike in a parking lot... My motorcycle career (2-yrs now) started with a 400cc bike - a Suzuki Gladius...
On the other hand - any other technique you could recommend for recovering from a missed shift while cornering? Yes - good throttle control should be one of them...
Cheers!!
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I meant on lower power bikes you won't slide much when you overdo slipping the clutch leaned over.On powerful bikes you can highside if you do it wrong yes?
Can anyone chime on this?
Personally, I dont feel much difference in difficulty with clutch modulation, ie. rev-matching, between small and big displacement bikes, in so far, any situation.
Yes, you can highside on a big bike if done wrong; so, is for a small bike. I had a friend who highsided on a 100-cc while practicing high-speed cornering. He was out of commission for a few months.
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Modulating the clutch is easier on low power bikes in my opinion.And perhaps required more.
Not necessarily - using the right upgrade parts, a clutch on a high powered bike can be made very easy/very light...
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Knowledge and Practice...
And yes - one of the most helpful lesson Ive learned -- Wide View... (which I got from the 2-Day Camp last February)
I so, consciously do it every time I go ride, or even a commute by foot... It basically "widens" my view of the surrounding - improving my situational awareness.
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Thanks for starting this Alfred.
My thoughts are from my point of view which may have a lot to do with the bikes I ride. Most of the bikes I ride at present are dry clutch bikes. Dry clutches do not like to be slipped. They heat up and wear very quickly. As a general rule for my bikes, I may have 3/8" (~10mm) of lever travel between disengaged and engaged. That is not very much room to modulate clutch slippage and work the throttle at the same time. Depending on what type of riding I am at the moment I will clutch up shift and downshift. Other times I will only use the clutch for starts and stops. Normally once my fingers are off the clutch lever they stay off the clutch lever. Exception: When I ride a 2 stroke I always keep 2 fingers on the clutch. I have experienced many, many rear wheel slides due to engine heat seizures, to include having the rear wheel slide for a moment or two after the clutch was disengaged.
One learns to listen to the sound of a motor and be prepared.If you miss a shift coming into a corner you have blown the turn. How do you know many, if any gears you have just downshifted?
What should you do if you find yourself between gears (false neutral) while downshifting?
I did that at CSS last year while passing a slower rider. Blown turn, wave hand signaling that I had a problem. Regroup and carry on. At the end of the session I apologized to the rider and coach that I screwed up in front of then asked the coach. What is the best thing to do when in a false neutral?
I'll wait for your answer first.
To me slipping the clutch to modulate traction while in a turn just does not make sense. There are too many chances that things could go wrong.
Too little clutch slippage = motor has more drive than you want.
Too much clutch slippage = motor revs too much for you.
1. You let off the throttle to return to the same revs you had before slipping the clutch = You lose drive and upset the suspension.
2. You leave the throttle where it is and lunge forward when you release the clutch = You could lose rear wheel traction, invoke a wheelie (at the wrong time). If either of those happen will you stay on the track? If so where will you be? Or will you continue to pull, release, pull, release until you have exited the turn? Upset the suspension, etc...
ktk_ace lightly covers it in his reply: "screwing up the turn point ALONE makes 11 things go haywire
then theres the suspension not in compliance , SR's , screwing up the steering rate etc.."
As with many things there is always a twist.
If you are riding a low powered bike then there are times when slipping the clutch is a needed tool.
After you have crossed the apex and are driving off the turn you find that you are below the power band you may need to slip the clutch a little to get the motor back into the power then it is acceptable. If you are having to do this exiting almost all the turns then you should look for solutions.
1. Downshift a gear
2. Gear the bike so you are not slipping the clutch off the turns
3. Go faster into the turns
But only after you are ready and confident with you riding skills.4. Tune the bike so the power comes in at a lower rpm.
How is this for a start?
I guess aslcbr600 best points out what I am trying to say - it shouldnt be the preferred way around the corner. But, it does, provide a tool to use, if needed...
A small beater isn't the right tool to pound in a nail but if your hammer broke the beater will still get the job done lol. In other words prevention is the way to go but it's also nice to have more tools in your toolbox because you never know what type of situation you could end up in on or off track.
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In a separate thread
http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.php?showtopic=2522&st=60#entry31511
raised the point that being able to modulate the clutch would be an invaluable technique to have while cornering...
The premise is that if you blew the corner, say, by having a missed shift, etc. doing a rev match with the clutch (not a throttle blip) or by modulating back/forth the "meet point" to limit the rear tire torque, is acceptable if to say avoid a crash, etc.
This would also be a good technique to have in the street, as well. I had the experience that while cornering in the canyons that I over downshifted, and as luck would have it, on a sandy patch... Not knowing about TOTW throttle control then, I just used the clutch to limit the torque to avoid a crash (either lowslide/highside)...
To that extent - I have also read articles about some pro riders using this technique in races.
The anti-premise, however, is that if you blew the corner, instead of modulating the clutch (which may take a significant portion of the US$10 bill), it would be better to regroup and avoid the mistake the next lap...
Created a new thread to hear other's thoughts!
Cheers!
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you got me by a tooth. 14/40 for me. At least you can tuck on yours. I'm just a sail going down the track on mine. I'm not even sure there is a track near the house where I would even use 6th. Most times I can clutch-less downshift without incident. While braking normally all it takes is just a slight blip. 3rd to 2nd can be entertaining when done wrong though.
@ Alfred I think we may going off topic with the clutch in the turns. Maybe a new thread?
Yeah - let us setup one... Would be a informative discourse...
Update: Created a new thread: http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.php?showtopic=3759
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Are the parking lots cleaner in your area?
35* or even 40* is easily achievable at sub 20 mph in a parking lot. Atleast then you have less risk of injury to yourself if you do fall while approaching and pushing beyond your personal limits
You are definitely right on that...
Here is a YouTube of me in my red sports tourer Ninja 1000 in a parking lot with some friends during a knee down practice session. This was last year in August....
As per @Stroker - if you see the other bikes on this video, they are nothing more than 100-cc. This goes back to my reply that you could achieve a lot, even with small bikes; and less the hurt and pain if you make a mistake.
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Hhhhmmm... After reading through the thread - am thinking, maybe I should try changing mine to GP... Would love to try out some GP bikes before that, though - who knows, I may "get sold" as well...
We have no parking space at all! All lots,side roads,footpaths are full of parked vehicles.I have seen videos of people going in circles, getting the body position right, because that's the last to fall in place before you properly hang off.The lean angle and speed are more easily gotten right.
One learns to listen to the sound of a motor and be prepared.
But only after you are ready and confident with you riding skills.
What's Considered A "fast" Time At Streets Of Willow? (i
in School Questions/General Discussion
Posted
I just had another 1-day session at SOW yesterday - Level 3. And for this time, I requested for lap times.
However, I would see that the Superbike School's track has a switch-back at the end, which is NOT in the "regular" configuration...
So, bumping this thread up - how would one gauge the lap times between a regular track day and the CSS session for CW...? Same question as above, how much time does the switch-back would take, on average?
Cheers!