PGI
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Posts posted by PGI
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At Buttonwillow RT in CA, turn 1, clockwise, April, I attempted a quick flick at 25 mph. It was session 2, first lap, and i went down. The front tire lost traction. After that crash i recalled the T2 video where the question is posed to the class, "Do you quick flick the bike when you're tires are cold?". The resounding answer: NO! The morning temperature was about 50F. Street tires. No tire warmers. I cancelled my late November track say in Chuckwalla without regret. Some like it hot.
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No idea. The track looks flat to me.
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On February 7, 2007 at 1:31 PM, Cobie Fair said:
Alan,
OK, take the competition out for a moment, and you are just going for a fast qualifying lap. What will get you the best time? Ultimately, if guys charge you see a lot of mistakes: most of them have the result of late on the throttle, and what is the result of that?
Cobie
It's as if the rider's mind couldn't process what just happened, and is now catching up, when finally the rider realizes speed is too low and now starts applying throttle.
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On May 21, 2017 at 6:43 PM, Lnewqban said:
This is the way I understand throttle control rule number two in Chapter 6:
Fine modulation of the throttle helps you read the forces that you feel more accurately.
The advantage of that is that your entry speed will be more consistent and appropriate than if you grossly decelerate in a hurry (charging the curve), just to find out that your entry speed (at the end of that precipitate deceleration) is lower than it should be (because your senses were overwhelmed, you are erring on the safe side of entry speed).
The error about the entry speed is more significant for any fast-entry turn, especially due to the aerodynamic drag explained by Hotfoot above.
Good point about senses overwhelmed, or losing sense of speed.
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On July 4, 2011 at 6:19 PM, bradvanhorn said:
It is good you enjoy pinning the throttle and enjoying some speed rush. I think if you change your reference points and begin to roll out of the throttle and start braking a little bit sooner, then you should have your speed better set in time to hit your turn-in point. Properly applied, this should get you turned and back on the gas sooner, give you a better drive out of the corner, and allow you pin it even sooner. As Jason mentioned, the two-step can help with this.
Good tip on charging
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1 hour ago, PGI said:
Any forum content discussing charging turns? This discussion may touch on the topic of charging. It's hard to find a good explanation of what charging turns means. Reading between the lines it seems charging means:
a) chopping the throttle rather than rolling off
b ) coasting
c) hard braking then sudden release just before turning.
Instead do this:
a) roll off the throttle, or roll off some and maintain a speed, then complete the full roll off
b ) hard braking then gradual release to adjust entry turn speed using your sense of speed
Best,
Found something from Lnewqban regarding charging, and I'll paraphrase it: You know you are charging your turns when you discover you scrubbed off too much speed and are now in the turn at a speed you know is too slow. You lost your sense of speed.
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Any forum content discussing charging turns? This discussion may touch on the topic of charging. It's hard to find a good explanation of what charging turns means. Reading between the lines it seems charging means:
a) chopping the throttle rather than rolling off
b ) coasting
c) hard braking then sudden release just before turning.
Instead do this:
a) roll off the throttle, or roll off some and maintain a speed, then complete the full roll off
b ) hard braking then gradual release to adjust entry turn speed using your sense of speed
Best,
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As to when to quickflick, it seems do it after braking, and don't mix trail braking with the quickflick. Trail brake when adjusting entry speed in high speed turns, where realistically, I don't think it's possible to quick flick.
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Hello, PGI!
I'm just an old bloke trundling around on backroads on old motorcycles most members here wouldn't consider riding at all
My current bike that see most use is a 1977 Kawasaki Z650 and I am fitting Michelin Pilot Active bias ply tyres after being impressed with the performance of the radials carrying the same name fitted to the Honda CB400SF in the household. I have cornered fast enough to scare myself silly and they still stuck like snot to a handkerchief, so I cannot say how they slide but they instill utter confidence.In my experience, tyre behaviour vary greatly. Also, what one rider loves another will hate, which is strange when you think about it. If a tyre is good for one, you would expect it to be good for everybody. For instance, we once fitted Dunlop D208s to the Honda, possibly the worst pair of tyres I have ever ridden on, sliding all over the place with little grip and virtually no grip when cold. My son crashed the Honda when the front just washed out at maybe 20 degrees of lean on a cold day. They were also nearly bald after 1500 and 2500 miles (rear and front respectively). Yet I have found a few reports online from riders who love the D208s and call them sticky. The Pilots, for us, are better than the other tyres we've tried on that bike by a wide margin and also last much longer, so I'm hoping the old style version will be similarly good. However, if Pirelli still made their MT75 in the sizes I need that's what I would fit because they're the best old style tyres I have used.
Sorry for the long-winded post - it's a bad habit of mine
I see. I wouldn't dare look for the traction limit either by sliding a tire on the street-the track, maybe. Interesting about the Dunlop 208s-probably the cold temperatures had a lot to do with the sliding. In California, it's never cold. I'm running Metzlers, they stick like glue, and I'll probably stay with them until further notice.
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Ran across this on the interweb tubes yesterday. We are so used to counter-steering that we don't ever think about it. In fact, I know when I do (when, say, on the lean bike), it sometimes trips me up. Well, imagine undoing that...
Neuroplasticity. I love it!
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Eirik,
Regarding Michelins, do you use them because they provide a buffer (traction loss warning) but just not as much as Pirellis?
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Holy thread revival Batman...
Well, after almost 1 year and a half 100% away from the track due a new job and my 1yo daughter, just did my second trackday in 2015 and the sh*t is f'up.
I can't carry any cornerspeed because I have zero confidence to countersteer/quickflick... in fact, I can't countersteer at all, only body steer and peg weighting.
Please, help me out to increase my quick flick rate... what drills can I try within my next trackday? I'm starting over again, that sucks a lot because I was used to ride in the advanced group and now I look like an old lady among the beginers.
Bummer. I would slow down to 75% and revisit counter-steering. Press on the right bar to turn right, and left to turn left. You can't possibly quick-flick the bike any other way. The Twist II DVD illustrates the comedy of body steering and peg weighting as steering tools. Peg weighting is great to lock on to the bike and facilitate pivot steering-push with your quad muscles into the tank on one side, and press horizontally on the bar on the other side. Also, ensure your body is low enough to make your counter steering effective; it is possible that you are pressing down on the bar instead of horizontally, making your counter steering ineffective or inefficient.
Paying attention to riding can be tough with new life events. A new job and a newborn will demand attention; riding fast, like any sport, is a mental game and the athlete pays a price when not focused. Best wishes.
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Racing tires & premium street tires tend to have a buffer zone, where the tires slide but still the rider maintains control, whereas street tires (not premium) once they lose traction and begin to slide, lack a buffer zone, slide suddenly and quickly, and control is much more in question.
How does one tell a premium street tire from that which is not a premium street tire?
Riding track days and street and not racing makes me not want to install racing tires on my machine.
Is trial and error the only way to test how street tires will slide, whether it be sudden and quick, or whether they will exhibit a more gradual, more controlled slide?
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I try to use the 2-step drill but I was lost when to look forward.
No ref. points at all... completely forgot this.
And never looked at the apex (try do use the 2-step and didnt look to the apex)
OK. So... if you don't have a point picked out for an apex AND haven't looked in toward the apex, you don't really have any info about where you want the bike to go - so how confident will your quickturn be?
This is a good review exercise for forum members, what is the timing on 2-step? When should you spot your turn point and when should you look in to the apex?
Spot your turn point as soon as possible because it controls many decisions (where to brake, when to downshift, etc.). Without reference points, there is no turn point. No bueno. The time to look at your apex is just before you reach the turn point. A rider requires a turn point to have the attention left to spend on his next reference point, the apex. If a rider is confident on his/her location (turn point/reference point), the rider is "free" to look at the apex just before flicking the machine into the turn. Like in real estate, location, location, location is of primary importance. You must have RPs to get your through the turns; you can relax on the straights.
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Yes, looks clear to me now. Two steering points instead of one, for example in the case of the 180 degree turn with the decreasing radius. Use track positioning by "easing in" (i.e. turning) before making the "one" steering change.
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Thanks everyone.
Regarding how to use the skills mentioned to make the pass, making the pass using the double apex will require scrubbing off more speed in the slowest part of the turn, midturn, to negotiate the tighter radius as compared to the ideal line (disadvantage). There is a braking advantage using the double apex line, namely brake later and then apply more force to set the entry speed prior to the quick turn. Because my entry speed would have to be slower to negotiate the tighter turn, this could result in my getting passed during the exit since I would have to be starting the drive from a lower speed than if taking the ideal line. Also, if I'm riding a big bike compared to a smaller, more agile machine, even more speed would have to be scrubbed off to negotiate the double apex line's turning point before the drive, maybe too much to make it worthwhile. Get back on the gas as soon as the bike is pointed at the apex (it will be a little later for the double apex line, which is a disadvantage). The hook turn gets applied at the quick-turn turning point using the double-apex line, made just prior to starting the drive out of the turn, but it could also be applied to ideal line.
It's best to work both lines and record the section times to see which can be done most efficiently. Then, if the passing opportunity arises, the double-apex may be the way to go, especially if passing a very slow rider. Also, if the decreasing radius turn is one in a series of turns, the drive out of the turn is moot (unable to take advantage of it), and the double-apex line is likely the better choice.
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Can you give an example of point 3, p. 76 of Twist II?
The point states that track positioning is useful when: " A slow turn-in, under-braking turn entry when positioning the bike quickly for the turn point could overload the front tire and cause the front wheel to lock".
I understand over-braking while turning will cause a loss of traction, or over-braking can lock up the front wheel, but I'm not understanding this statement. The statement gives me visions of beginning a fast turn early and trail braking (slow turn-in) , positioning the bike for a turning point then making a quick turn in a late apex, decreasing radius turn. Not sure.
My current bike that see most use is a 1977 Kawasaki Z650 and I am fitting Michelin Pilot Active bias ply tyres after being impressed with the performance of the radials carrying the same name fitted to the Honda CB400SF in the household. I have cornered fast enough to scare myself silly and they still stuck like snot to a handkerchief, so I cannot say how they slide but they instill utter confidence.
Can Quick Turn Be Overdone?
in Cornering and Techniques
Posted
I think you nailed it. Just for the sake of non physicists, the rapid quick flick produces an upward force which decreases front tire contact patch area, and, applying throttle further decreases the front tire contact area, maybe even to zero, and upon leaning in the opposite direction, the front tire regains traction and because the front wants to self correct, the tank slapper motion begins?