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Hotfoot

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Posts posted by Hotfoot


  1. 36 minutes ago, faffi said:

    ... and with a good rider not spending grip by holding on too tight and/or giving the bike confusing/harsh inputs, which also use chunks of your grip account.

     

    Faffi adds an excellent point; a little stiffness in the arms (a common in-too-fast survival reaction) will restrict bar movement, add load to the front, and potentially add some countersteering input that leans the bike over farther which can VERY easily overload a front tire that is already near the traction limit.

    Some braking references in Twist II that might help you (the OP) on info about leaned-over braking: Ch 24 Braking sections "Efficient Braking", "In-turn Brakes", "Crash Statistics", and "Brave or Smart".

    Also the chapters in Section II on "Rider Input" and Section III on Steering and Lines would be good to review.

     

    • Like 1

  2. I am sorry to hear about your crash. I'm not sure what to say in response to your post; I am coach with a school and our absolute #1 priority is to keep riders from crashing. I know that in the classroom there is quite a bit of explanation about how to do the no-brakes drill. Riders are told that this is a drill and not a rule - riders may of course use the brakes if needed for safety, the brakes are not disabled and the only consequence of using the brakes during the drill is possibly a corner worker showing a blue flag to remind that rider about the drill. The point of the exercise is to focus on setting entry speed properly without relying on the brakes, which slow the bike down rapidly and make it harder to judge an exact speed. Riders are instructed that one must allow extra room for the bike to slow down and that it is OK to use the brakes if needed. Additionally riders are asked to ride at a reduced pace, one that is very comfortable for them, for sure not higher than about 75% of what they would consider their normal riding pace, in order to have enough free attention to focus on the drill. 

    As far as required experience level,  this is what is stated on the website: 2000 miles of riding experience is required, along with being comfortable enough to operate the motorcycle and still have enough free attention to take in new information. I believe that info is also restated in the paperwork sent to any student who signs up. For sure we get students who do not understand counter-steering, even some who ride very well and have ridden for 30 years; everyone who rides a two-wheel motorcycle countersteers, but not everyone really understands how it works. :)

    Again, I am sorry to hear of your crash; I see that Cobie (who is the Chief Riding Coach Worldwide for the school) has offered to speak with you on the phone if you would like to talk through what happened with him, that is a nice offer and could be quite helpful to you in your riding (he can help diagnose exactly what factors led up to the crash); as you might imagine he has an enormous knowledge base and exceptional riding and coaching experience, and of course he will be very interested in hearing what happened especially if there was something more that could have been done to prevent it. 

     

     


  3. Basically, no, it is not ok to just add more braking if you are "too hot" into a turn and leaned way over, it would be a very dicey and delicate operation with a high likelihood of losing the front, it is VERY easy to blow past the traction limit or run out of ground clearance (hitting hard parts on the bike) doing that. Brakes should be tapering off as lean angle is increased, not the other way around.

    Yes, you will have to give up your line; if you are fully leaned into the corner and realize your entry speed was too high, it's too late to salvage your line. You will need to either let the bike run wide (if the entry speed error is small) or if it is way too high you will have to stand the bike up, brake hard, and slow it down as much as possible, then steer it again (at a new reduced speed requiring less lean and hopefully make the turn) or run off (after having slowed down as much as possible first).

    If you are getting into turns and not realizing your are too fast until you are already leaned over, it sounds like you might be riding over your head. A review of A Twist of the Wrist II book or movie to discover how to choose a turn point, how to set entry speed, and visual skills (when exactly to look into the corner and WHERE exactly to look) would help a great deal. If you are relying on trail braking to correct too-high entry speed errors, you are approaching things backwards - a better strategy would be to do some no-brakes practice to get your entry speed under control FIRST, then add trail braking (to allow for a later braking zone) once the other skills are in place. Using the brakes while leaned over is a skill that requires a very good foundation of skills - knowing how to choose a line, where to look and when, and a good ability to judge entry speed. Without those foundations, trying to use heavy trail braking to adjust entry speed while already near max lean is a tricky business. 


  4. On ‎6‎/‎27‎/‎2020 at 7:12 PM, yakaru said:

    by the by, @Cobie Fair / @Keith Code -- any consideration to putting Twist and Twist II on Kindle? I have two paperback copies already but one that I could keep on my phone or kindle so I don't ever forget it for a track day as well as the ability to search for terms would be excellent.

    I have the Kindle edition, here is a link for Twist II for Kindle:

    https://www.amazon.com/Twist-Wrist-II-High-Performance-Motorcycle-ebook/dp/B00F8IN5K6

    and here is a link for A Twist of the Wrist (Twist I), it is available on Kindle also:

    https://www.amazon.com/Twist-Wrist-Motorcycle-Racers-Handbook-ebook/dp/B00BNFIU08/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1593622442&sr=1-2

    I love having these, because I can search for a word of phrase electronically to go right to the info I want. And it's great to be able to pull up the books on my iPhone Kindle App, at the track or wherever I might be.

    • Like 2

  5. 18 hours ago, Cobie Fair said:

     Maybe we should do a behind-the-scenes commentary (Hotfoot was there...) as well as the best parts to check out.

    Behind the scenes - yes, I was there and one thing that I remember was that it was SO HOT during the filming! Those scenes at Streets of Willow were like a blast furnace, the hottest days I have ever experienced out there, ever. You can see the heat ripples in the air in the film. I notice it the most during the radar-gun scenes where it shows different exit speeds based on better throttle control.

    You must have some behind the scenes stories about the riders on the lean bike, demonstrating bad technique over water and sand and sliding the front tire!

    I have a question - was it scary to ride the no BS bike and have someone else behind you doing the steering? :)

    • Like 1

  6. 1 hour ago, trueblue550 said:

    That movie changed my life. I had been riding (commuting) about 5 or 6 months when I figured I was ready to ride some twisty roads. So I went out and scared myself pretty bad. The bike wouldn't turn, I was crossing the yellow repeatedly, my wrists hurt from my death grip on the bars, etc. Every corner was terrifying; a "mild panic" as they say in the movie. It was a bad day. Then I found TOTW2 and I felt like Keith had just watched me ride and was going over my mistakes, one by one. The entire movie was a series of "ah-ha!" moments. Everything was explained so well. Now I've done a bunch of schools and I mostly ride track days. It's a slippery slope.

    My favorite parts of the movie are the cheesiest parts. That's what makes it fun!

    What a great story and review of the movie, great post!


  7. I was so happy to find out, today, that A Twist of the Wrist II is available on Amazon Prime Video now! You can watch it instantly, here is a link to it on Amazon Video (or you can just put A Twist of the Wrist in the search box) :

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/detail/B089ZNVBW9/ref=atv_dp_share_cu_r

    And since we're talking about the movie, what was your favorite part? I can't wait to hear what y'all liked best.

    My favorite part is the CG animation and explanation of why using the front brake in a corner tends to make the bike stand up, it was BY FAR the clearest explanation I've ever seen for why that happens.

    (My second favorite part is near the beginning where it shows a rider going off the road due to SR's, and explains and shows each of the Survival Reactions individually.)

    How about the rest of you, what did you like seeing in the movie, or what helped you the most with your riding?

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  8. This is a very broad question. The answer will depend on a variety of factors about the corner: radius (and whether it is increasing, decreasing, or staying the same), camber, surface (grip, bumps, etc.) so I am not sure what sort of answer you are hoping we can provide.

    If the radius of the corner is increasing, and the camber is either unchanging or getting more favorable, you should be able to accelerate through the corner, however if the radius is decreasing and/or the surface is going off-camber, you may have to be slower later in the corner instead of faster. A corner with a crest in it may, as you mentioned, lighten the bike as you go over it and may require a pause on the throttle to maintain traction.

    My recommendation would be get ahold of a copy of "The Soft Science of Road Racing Motorcycles" and have a look at Chapter 2, which includes info about how to sense traction for yourself, and Chapter 3, which talks about making a plan for how to ride a turn and how to adjust the plan to fine-tune it, and Chapters 9-10 that get into how to increase your speed through corners, and specific riding styles and how to make the best use of the strengths of your specific motorcycle and your own riding skills. There is a lot of information about how to handle certain types of turns, adjustments that can made to line or throttle and the effects those adjustments will have, and a ton of other information I am sure you will find very helpful. 

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  9. It is very typical at Barber to have the forecast look terrible but actually not have it rain for long at all. It's typical in the area for an afternoon shower come through, in the summer. Trevor watches the radar carefully and manages the time to get as much dry track time as possible (if rain is expected in late afternoon he will run shorter breaks between rides, etc. to get as much dry riding time as possible in case the rain arrives before 5pm). Often at Barber we can complete our whole day before the late afternoon rain arrives. I go to Barber every year, and every year I think the forecast looks terrible but then most days we either don't get rain until the very end of the day (often after we are done riding) or it rains just for one session and stops.

    It IS true that riding in the rain can be a fantastic learning experience! Imagine what a win it is to turn it from a scary sounding experience into real competence  - and confidence -riding in rain! It sounds like you have not ridden with us before, please know what we will NOT push you to ride above your comfort level, and your coach will help you understand what is a reasonable pace in the rain - which really does involve slowing down a whole lot, especially at first. The real key is to not put pressure on YOURSELF to think you have to go fast (raining or not!), we are a school and we want you to start at your comfort level and build up from there. It's almost certain you won't be the only person there on a track for the first time, or on a sportbike for the first time, or - if it is raining - riding in the rain for the first time.

    Which days are you signed up for?


  10. Nice! I wish more racing organizations would put effort like that into trophies, those CodeRACE trophies are cool. Most organizations are just using wooden plaques or metal plates now, definitely not fancy enough, relative to the amount effort and money required to get one! 

    (Well, the CA State Championship award was very cool - someone donated their time and MADE the trophies out of donated race parts - sprockets, gears, springs, etc. The one I have looks like modern art, that one is on display in my office!) 

    I recall a friend (and CSS student) getting into racing and when he won his first race he was SO stoked - but the trophy, at the time, was just a round medal, hanging on a ribbon, made to go around your neck. He went to a trophy shop and got a great big four-column trophy made with that medal at the top - I thought that was perfect, much more in keeping with the achievement and his level of enthusiasm about his win. :)

    Congrats on your results!


  11. 10 hours ago, yakaru said:

    I enjoyed the 300 a lot more on the school day, was really fun, but decided with likely quite a few new racers that the potential risk of needing to do more 'in corner' passing instead of exit out-driving would be a risk so I went with the S1000. Wish everyone had been on lightweights though :P 

    That makes sense all around. Glad you had fun. As you say, Streets really can be a blast on a lightweight bike!


  12. 1 hour ago, Spinto said:

    For me...i think it would help. Thanks

    I'll pass on that feedback, it might make sense to resurrect that forum section. From participating in some other forums I DO understand the questions/concerns that arise when you don't know the sources of the information you get.

    This particular thread covered a whole lot of ground in a short amount of time, and got confusing, but from what I saw most of what was said was correct in one way or another, just incomplete or stated in a way that was not absolutely clear. Perfect example is the question of what happens when you roll off the throttle in a turn - one person said the bike stands up and runs wide and another said that the arc tightens. And BOTH of those things can, and do, happen! With an abrupt roll off the effect of the bike standing up and running wide is much more dramatic and noticeable, and a rider who chops the throttle or grabs the front brake will experience that, and might be mystified as to why it happened, when he (theoretically) expected the arc to just tighten. However a more seasoned rider who backs off the gas very gradually would feel something quite different - the effect still occurs but the weight shift is so much less and the drag on the rear tire nowhere near as intense so THAT rider may not notice the 'standing up/running wide' effect at all unless they are very attuned to it, it will come and go very quickly and then the bike will begin to tighten its arc as it slows down. 

    Anyway, the point is: as long as we keep our manners in we can learn a lot from all the questions and viewpoints that arise here, and sometimes something that seems simple or obvious turns out to have some ins and outs that are fascinating when explored from different angles.

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  13. 5 hours ago, 53Driver said:

    Okay, first nomenclature: "maintaining throttle" (by which I assume you mean you stop rolling on, but don't roll off)"  I did mean exactly that, is there another term? 

    Second: if there was still room on the pavement to use, it's gonna need to get used.  If my turn is that bad, I'm hoping my peripheral vision would have already cued me to that available pavement in conjunction with whatever lean angle I thought I could muster - and perhaps it is 0 degrees more - and my radius of turn would increase ever so slightly with very, very minimal throttle added to make that happen.  The weight would still be proportionally shifting to the rear with additional throttle - so I reckon the key there is adding ever so smoothly, maintain the lean angle and keep looking through the exit.  

    If the speed was high and the line was bad, and you had pavement left to use, could you stand the bike up, brake hard, then steer the bike again? Could you, at that new, significantly reduced speed (because you had applied brakes hard) now turn the bike in a sharper arc than you could have achieved at the higher speed, where you might have run out of traction or ground clearance?

    Clearly I am talking about a relatively extreme example, but could you, if needed, handle the problem that way?

    As far as "maintenance throttle" as a term, I just wanted to clarify your interpretation. It is not a term we use at the school; that phrase can generate confusion because some people use it to mean "enough throttle to maintain speed (through the corner)" and others use it to mean "hold the throttle where it is" i.e. not rolling on and also not decreasing it, and those are two different things. (There may be more definitions than just those two, but I hear those two fairly often.) 

    • Like 1

  14. 2 minutes ago, 53Driver said:

    I would answer "maintain throttle" during the steering correction and add throttle as soon as possible afterwards when the bike is re-pointed.

    Good answer. What if just "maintaining throttle" (by which I assume you mean you stop rolling on, but don't roll off) wouldn't be enough to handle it? If your line was REALLY a disaster and your speed was too high to make just a small steering correction (i.e., at the given speed you might not have enough traction or ground clearance to lean it over far enough to make the corner), how else could you handle it, if you still had some room before the edge of the pavement?


  15. 13 hours ago, Spinto said:

    i'll be bowing out of these conversations going forward. Too cliquey. Also too "green"

    Good luck to all of you!  Listen to the coaches!!!

    At one time (not too long ago) we had a section that was a "questions for coaches" area, where a user could ask a question to be answered only by coaches, not necessarily open to general discussions from others. If we had a section like that again, would that resolve your concerns about the board being "cliquey" or "too green"?

    Our intention is to be a friendly forum that is open to riders of all levels, where riders of all types can feel comfortable asking questions in a positive, helpful, and ad-free environment.

    • Like 1

  16. 13 hours ago, 53Driver said:

     

    2.  Rolling on throttle will not cause a lean angle change - got it.  But given the same lean angle, with an increase in throttle, the radius of the turn will run wider, correct?  And to keep the same radius of turn the lean angle must be increased?

    Again, I think we're all in the same hymnal, driving toward the same page.   

    Thanks for the guidance, Coach!

      

    Correct, given a constant lean angle, speed and radius are related so as the speed comes up the radius of the turn gets wider. And yes, to maintain the SAME arc at a higher speed you would have to have a greater lean angle.

    This can be a source of crashes for novice riders, if a rider turns in early, ends up running wide, and has to lean it over farther to stay on line, they can end up adding throttle and lean angle simultaneously which can overload the rear tire and potentially cause a crash.

    If a rider ends up running wide at the end of a corner and has to steer the bike again to stay on the track, what SHOULD the rider do with the throttle during that steering correction? 

    • Like 1

  17. I think we need to clarify whether we are talking about "weighting" the outside peg or talking about PRESSING on the peg.

    Pressing down on the peg with your muscles to force you knee up into/against the tank can improve your lock on and that is a nice benefit.

    Using the outside lower leg as a strength base for pivot steering is not weighting the peg, it is using the peg as the most stable pivot point. (Just standing on the peg doesn't work for pivot steering because that is not the same as locking your lower leg to the bike.)

    If a rider senses an improvement in the bike's handling from peg pressure/weight, it is most likely because they are in reality locked on better OR have changed their body position to being lighter in the seat over bumps OR have changed the location of their Center Of Mass (I.e., hanging off more to the inside) but these are secondary effects and NOT produced by just putting more weight on a peg.

    For chicanes and fast transitions, pivot steering is an excellent technique to be able to steer more decisively and strongly and get the bike over faster. Putting weight on the pegs during a transition will lighten your weight in the seat which allows you to slide your hips over more easily and quickly and that ALSO can quicken the transition. This can be used in conjunction with other body position techniques that we teach in Level 3.

    • Like 1

  18. Whew, this thread has gone all over creation and back since the original posted question, and the OP seems to have checked out. So, I'm going to jump in here. I am a CSS coach.

    First let me note that Yakaru is a very competent rider, fast, has come to many schools, and is very knowledgeable on the material.

    Now, on to some of the info that is in question.

    1) When a rider is in a corner, if the throttle is APRUPTLY shut off, the bike will INITIALLY stand up a bit and run wide. Sudden loading of the front tire creates drag on the inside of the contact patch which tries to turn the wheel into the turn which makes the bike stand up. This is the same phenomena that occurs when you pull the front brake in the middle of a corner, that makes the bike stand up and run wide. THEN, once the bike recovers from the initial weight shift and begins to slow down, the arc will tighten due to the bike slowing down. There is a GREAT CG animation of this in A Twist of the Wrist II DVD.

    2) Rolling on the gas does not, BY ITSELF, cause the bike change lean angle. You must countersteer to stand the bike up. However, as the bike speeds up, the radius of the arc changes (widens), which can give people the impression the bike is standing up - especially if they unconsciously STEER it up! It's a rare rider that knows and understands that it is ONLY the handlebars that steer the bike up (not the throttle), most riders have been doing unconsciously since the first day they rode.

    I hope this helps clarify these points.

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  19. Interesting to hear that; in local racing it seems like the trend has been headed towards stiffer and stiffer tire carcasses (with lower air pressure, especially in the rear tire) instead of towards a softer carcass. 

    It's too bad we don't have that same sort of super slo-mo footage from 20 years ago to see the difference in tire deformation compared to back then. 


  20. Personally, I prefer a softer carcass and a more rounded profile for the tire. That's partly because I am a smaller rider and most bike's suspensions are too stiff for me anyway so the softer tire helps absorb some of that, but it is also because I like to feel the tire react - I like to feel the tire "set" in the corner, and feel it compress under acceleration. I do not like to feel rigidity or vibrations, or feel like the tire isn't reacting or won't compress, that sort of feedback tends to make me feel like the tire is cold or has too much air pressure and won't have adequate grip, so I am more tentative and don't load it enough for it to really work well. If I am SURE it is OK - like on warmed up Dunlop GPA tires, which have amazing grip, then I can push through that mental barrier and can appreciate the stability of the stiffer carcass under very hard braking and acceleration. But I prefer to ride with a smoother style so I don't miss it if the stiffness/stability is not there, I rarely brake/accelerate with that extreme force unless I am following someone who DOES ride with that sort of style and get (sort of) forced into it.

    What is it that makes you say "how soft MotoGP tires are"? Are you saying that because Michelins have a reputation for being softer than some others, or is that something that was said or  written or published somewhere, that current MotoGP tire carcasses are softer right now than in the past?

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