636rider
-
Posts
71 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Posts posted by 636rider
-
-
Usual apologies if this has been covered or is in the wrong place, I've tried to make sure that isn't so...
There is a lot of guff in the m/c press for sure but how much truth is there in the difference in grip that a twin has driving out of a corner compared to a four? I ride a SV650 V-twin, but have previously also ridden fours. I don't know if it's just a feeling, but to me it feels like when you get on the throttle to exit a bend, with a twin the back tyre seems to bite more than with a four. I am using proper throttle control rather than just on/off (years of riding rubbish old bikes makes you smooth) and had no problem with this at level 1. Twins tend to rev lower than fours, mine redlines at about 10k although sometimes I'll be coming out of a bend at as much as 7k, which is in inline four territory, although it'll still make half the number of power pulses as a four of course.
So, what do you think? This has had me wondering for a while. That and I'm thinking about getting a new bike...
Not sure we can see it from the engine design approach--
Why use 4 cylinders instead of 1 for the same engine size? A piston will accelerate faster if it has less mass, and when the ratio of connecting rod length (L) to the crank arm radius ( R ) is larger. Acceleration can be faster by making R smaller. However, small crank arm radius also means less torque, so the engine needs more cylinders to compensate for torque requirement. Same reason for building a 12-cylinder engine for racing car and only 4 cylinders for Civic. A big-banger trail bike needs torque and therefore uses large crank arm radius R but compromises the piston acceleration, and needs only 1 cylinder.
In short, a multi-cylinder engine will accelerate faster by design. Wondering whether what you are feeling, is partially in fact due to the faster acceleration of the in-line 4 engine compares with a V-twin that has only 2 cylinders.
-
Back in the summer of 2002 I took level 1 of 2 of the school at Putnam Park Roadcourse in Indiana. I am considering taking some more classes this coming summer at VIR in May.
My question is......Should I retake level 1 and 2 since it has been a while since I had the instruction? I will admit that I cannot remember each and every moment of the 2 days that I spent learning but I do remember a majority of it. I still have the class materials that Keith handed out after each classroom session. Having said that I don't want to bite off more than I can chew by jumping right into level 3 if I should not be there.
I have participated in track days. I am not unfamilar to the track. What do you think?
Craig
Craig,
It seems won't hurt to move on to level 3 or 4, then retake level 1 and 2 later. They are different skills and you may see the level 1 and 2 drills quite differently after you have the taste of level 3 skill too. I find able to hang off a little bit and know the possibility of correcting line with hook turn from level 3 exercise, helps me to do the quick turn drill of level 1 differently. At least at higher entry speed, it becomes less frightening.
-
...After 12 seasons of riding the leather on the tailored suit is deteriorating and the colours doesn't look as nice, so just before Christmas I had measurements taken for both a 1-piece (for the track) and a 2-piece (for the road). Christmas 2010 should arrive around February 1st
:)Nice x-mas present indeed!
One thing that we have found with used leathers is the salt that can accumulate. We started to wash the leathers, then recondition them.
Washing in the tub with a mild soap. Rinse repeatedly, (until the water no longer is dirty), dry, then condition. Has worked quite well. Don't dry too fast, like not in the dryer. I did use a fan at one point when they were taking a while to get dried.
Nothing like a new set, but a way to keep the older around and in good order.
Best,
CF
ps--I g
Nice to get this cleaning info-- I always worry about leather may shrink a lot when wash and dry fast.
Wondering anyone has also sent their leather for professional leather cleaning or dry cleaning, with good result?
-
What a great post 636! I loved this story and you are not alone in how you patiently waited for the time to pass before you could return to the world of motorcycling. BTW, Hercules, CA is just across the Bay from Infineon and the School is going there in March.
Rainman
Hello Kevin,
Glad that you understand my situation. Yes, I have signed up for March with the hope to try the slide bike at Infineon too. Last time, i was late to register and the class was full real early. I believe that my "little boy" might have met you before, at track during his bike school or as corner worker, though may not be at Infineon. Hope that I can meet you someday too since I enjoy reading your posts on stories about bikes, riding experience.
-
Got my motorcycle license in Hong Kong in 1976 with a Honda CB125. Then rode one of the 7 Honda XL350's registered there in the following years. In those years, Hong Kong was building their first mass transit railroad. With any 4 wheel vehicles, it took average 2 hours to travel 4 miles (yes, average 2 mph), from one end of Hong Kong Island to other end due to bumper to bumper traffic every workday during construction. My XL350 would take 15 minutes and loved it. Came to California in 1982 and got the first bigger bike--Suzuki GS650G, rode to DMV and got my CA motorcycle license and planned to work in downtown San Francisco with bike for easy parking. Then got married and shortly afterwards, motorcycle license was suspended--wife said only able to ride under either:
condition 1, I get my own ranch with private roads and ride only inside ranch, or
condition 2, little boy becomes 21 years old.
Could not afford a ranch in San Francisco and so waited until condition 2. Got a Kawasaki 636 in 2006, then also attended level 1, 2 and 3 with the "little boy".
Now try to catch up the missing fun by riding to work when it is not raining.
-
Hey guys,
I had been trying to get a group of us Triumph riders to sign up, but everyone's been taking their sweet time deciding while there weren't too many spots left. I've been wanting to do take the class for a long time now, so I signed myself up today to make sure I got a spot!
A few questions:
1) I'm signed up for 3 single days: Level I on May 10, Level II on May 11, and Level III on May 14. Do you guys think that's too much in too little time to really maximize the experience? I'm a long time street rider, but have never been on the track.
2) I've signed up to use my own bike mainly because of the costs. I have a 2008 Triumph Street Triple, and I know there are people who use it on the track... but it's got a handle bar and is designed to be ridden in an upright position. I'm replacing the rear shock with one from the Daytona 675 (the sister, sport model) this winter, but the stock front forks weren't really intended for the track and have no adjustability. On the one hand, I think using my bike would really allow me to gain more confidence on it. But on the other hand, I'm not sure if I'll be missing out not learning on a real sportbike? Also, how much wear and tear would I be putting on my bike?
3) Anyone else going from the Tri-state area?
Looks like I've got lots of studying to do this winter! I really can't wait for the class!!!
Cheers,
JT
Hi JT,
I have signed up to use school bike also because of cost too--even with over $1250 deposit and this is my 4th time in coming March in Sears Point. Considering one crash (though it has not happened yet) may cost more with own bike.
In addition, saving tire cost and preparing the coolant etc plus the chance to ride the new BMW, seems worths it.
-
I'm looking at doing one of the 2 day classes this coming year, but was wondering if one track was better than the others.
initally i was thinking LV since they have NHRA drag races the same weekend, for the bf. but I saw the lay out of the LV and it didn't look as intimidating as Streets of Willow or Miller motor speedway. Anyone have preference of which track to school at?
this will be my first track experience ever. i've heard a lot of ppl say that willows might not be a good choice since track conditions might not be prime. being my first track day and all, that i might want to be able to concentrate on learning skills.
miller looks like it might be fun, but ppl are saying it's a 'fast' track. i'm thinking it might not be a problem since it's school. favoring this track right now.
but any input is welcome.
Quaker, which one is your hometown track? Some people would like to beat their hometown track better than their visitors. Advantage may be you will be closer to the familiar track (with the coaches' help to analyze that track during school) when you practice again in future. With the coaches from the school, I guess every track will be equally good for learning.
-
OK, see here who are the real die hards: in Twist 1 DVD, see if you can find the shot of Keith holding a CBR 1000 with ( 2 fingers on the throttle only.
CF
Cobie,
Thanks a lot for info. Another new school exercise now--- 2-finger drill.
-
I keep thinking about how hard it is to hold up a bike when stopped if it gets leaned over too far, or how hard it is to pick up after a fall - it takes everything bit of muscle I've got plus a bit of technique to lift up a sportbike, and I can't do it while straddling the bike. So if a bike truly loses traction in a turn enough to cause a fall, that's what the rider would be faced with, 400 pounds of bike, and holding that up with their knee in an awkward position with no leverage? I'm still very skeptical, but maybe it's just something one has to experience to believe. Why couldn't it just be a temporary loss of traction, due to some surface or tire irregularity, and the traction comes back later because the surface or tire improves, or due to a throttle change, but the rider thinks they've done it with their knee? For example in the video, the detergent is there, then it's not, and the bike recovers, what's so unusual about that?
H,
It isn't the full 400+ lbs of weight that one has to hold. We are talking the times a rider has saved it, when it has just gone over the edge of traction, but the tires are still in contact with the ground. How much does one have to "hold" a correctly set up bike, when it is in the turn, and the bike is moving? AND let's not forget no lean angle change (otherwise the rider would have some pressure on the bars).
Any of the physics guys up here have a an idea of how to calculate this?
CF
Cobie,
Not sure it is a trick question.-- my guess will be none. No force is needed to "hold' a correctly set up bike in the turn if not trying to change its line. If I do not need to put the $1250 deposit on the school bike, I shall let both hands off the bar in the lean to prove it during my next school session.
-
I've just been flicking through my CSS work books. In my level 3 book I'm struggling to remember what was taught with the hip flick
I remember the knee to knee well, to help with getting through chicanes and keeping the bike stable.
However as much as I rack my brain I still can't remember!! I only did my Level 3 this year........Early onset senile dementia??
Cheers
Slowass
Hi Slow,
Hip flick is "before moving any of the other upper body to the other side of lean, just move the hip (butt) to the other side first, then your knee to knee flip for the upper body, so as not to disturb the bike". Can I correct?
Slowslow
-
It would be interesting to see a little survey on how often the school coaches/ former champion students/ other experience racers are using trail braking when they are not teaching, but during racing or practicing for fun.
-
Hi there, can we look at the cornering from pure engineering approach. If for the given corner where the max speed is say 200 mph for the curve. What will be the quickly time to complete that portion? I would say keep constant 200 mph, right from the entry point before the lean, all the way to when we can increase speed after pick up the bike (assuming after apex). How can it be faster if we are trail braking? Any trail braking means not able to achieve maximum speed (200 mph) during the same portion of the corner. Trai braking is useful for correction for unseen requirement to slow down or change line. If you can set up the entry speed correctly, trail braking seems cannot be faster. 50 years later, Rossi's speed may be considered slow. It will be interesting to see Keith training Rossi's son to break Rossi's record. Correction, I feel Keith can train Rossi's daughter to break Rossi's record too.
hello there fella,
using your theoretical example of a corner speed of 200mph (
) you want to keep that 200mph from entry all the way through and out the corner.Now, if you assume that the bike can approach the corner above 200mph, say 220mph, it is entirely possible to go in to the corner on the brakes past your previously designated turn point doing lets say 210...dropping down to 200 again by the time you are at the apex and off the brakes.......so you have carried more speed up to the corner and the same speed from the mid point onward and so have gone faster.........yes?
Anyway, as i i've now said a few times, I dont want to debate the finer details, its been done already and tends to result in people replying by stating what they believe to be correct rather than adressing the original point.
Hello Stumpy, it seems that if you can start the turn at 210 mph and quick turn to full lean angle without problem (no sliding, run wide etc), why not maintain that 210 mph all the way until pass apex and then pick up the bike and accelerate, instead of trail braking to the slower speed 200 mph. Of course, if you want to block other racer by tightening the line, you may trail brake even it is losing speed/time. Or if you see a decreasing radius and need to correct the line, you may trail brake to slow down to avoid running wide if you have already reached max lean. In fact, there are other effective technique for correcting the line, such as hook turn, or handling the DR such as using double apex---which I would let some other experienced coaches/riders to comment. Trail braking is useful in some areas though may not be the best for those areas, but needs too much attention that may not give the fastest lap time. The attention may be more rewarding when spent on quick turn, selection of line and entry speed.
-
Hi there, can we look at the cornering from pure engineering approach. If for the given corner where the max speed is say 200 mph for the curve. What will be the quickly time to complete that portion? I would say keep constant 200 mph, right from the entry point before the lean, all the way to when we can increase speed after pick up the bike (assuming after apex). How can it be faster if we are trail braking? Any trail braking means not able to achieve maximum speed (200 mph) during the same portion of the corner. Trail braking is useful for correction for unseen requirement to slow down or change line. If you can set up the entry speed correctly, trail braking seems cannot be faster. 50 years later, Rossi's speed may be considered slow. It will be interesting to see Keith training Rossi's son to break Rossi's record. Correction, I feel Keith can train Rossi's daughter to break Rossi's record too.
-
On my third lap I lost the bike on the entrance to T7. ..................... The strange part is that the bike and I both went down on our LEFT sides.
Hello twitchmonitor, T7 at Sears Point is a double apex right turns, wonder why you land on left side. You were at only 5 degree lean.---do you brake hard enough (even you just easing THEM on) such that the bike turn around completely, more or less change direction with rear wheel going first and then flip to left?
Wonder whether the side of your front tire, and the middle of your rear tire have been scuffed in well enough, such that they are still slippery at certain areas.
Hope to have someone with experience on similar crash condition to analyze. Glad that you are OK.
-
Here's a topic, discuss.....
To go fast do you need skill or courage or both?
Can you go really fast with skill alone? Courage Alone?
Like Kevin says...what a loaded question..
Even Rossi cannot go fast with my nighthawk 250, he has both skill and courage;
we need your bike too
-
Came on here to bounce an issue about and found
http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.php?showtopic=1774
With some of what I'm experiencing, so here goes :-)
I am in the UK have done level 4 several times and slowly making improvements, I am now at the point I know (mostly) when I am making mistakes and what they do.
I recently was talking to a coach who turned up at a track day I was on and realised I was spending to much attention on my TP and not enough on my apex. That and I was looking for an exact TP and ones that's way to small, I have realised that stops me raising the entry speed as i am often hunting for the TP before quickly looking at the Apex and turning.
So I spend a day on track and started making sure I hit every apex taking my attention away from the TP, that was no problem and I quickly had apex's down (ish). Sitting down with paper and a pen I realised I actually had the majority of TP down as well and without having to hunt for them. The corners felt more relaxed apart from two, these are blind corners where I you are still on the throttle before seeing the corner.
Now when I am in the corner I am happy and can match most on speed, on the exit I am on the throttle early its just corner entry I have an issue with.
I know my Turn point and am looking at the Apex with the TP still in my vision, I am turning where I want and pointing to the Apex.
However I find I am still over braking / coming off the throttle too much. Following a friend I would say the entry speed is a couple miles an hour to slow. The faster the corner the worse it gets, also meaning I am getting hard on the throttle to try and make up for the speed.
So I know where I am going wrong , I know where I should be looking and have reference points (mostly).
In the corner I am happy, exiting the corner I am happy but no matter what I do I cant convince my brain to 'take the risk' and go in faster.
Any thoughts on overcoming this barrier ?
cheers
doog
I agree with BLSJDS that quick turn sure will help, but relax and do not push yourself to ground.
Check
at 04:20 time, if we can lean sharp to correct angle fast like the coach. It will help a lot.Quick turn is a level 1 drill, but it is not until much much later, at level 3 that I can feel able to do better.
If you do not have problem with quick turn, may be you are able to ride faster but only do not trust your own ability.
-
Conversation overheard between my 3 year old son and his babysitter:
Babysitter: "What's THIS in the picture?"
My son: "It's a Duc!"
Babysitter: "Nooooo, honey, it's a MO-TOR-CYCLE."
Sigh. Some people just don't get it.
My son likes tractors, too, so I anticipate some confusion when he identifies a Caterpillar, or a Deere.
This little one for sure will hangeoff when placed in a shopping cart.
-
hi guys i would like to know the best way to find my brake markers do i just keep picking a point until it lands me where i get to my turn point for the corner or is there a easier way , done all four levels and just thought it was something you guys could have added in the training as it is the start of a bend realy i stand to be corrected
Hi Freedy,
Have you considered using the "END" of braking point too as Keith has suggested in the T of T page 64? That will allow seeing in advance where braking will be finished, adjusting the entry speed more easily. I find it is helpful and hope you do too.
-
I think I'm addicted. Is there a twelve step program I can attend for this? Here are my symptoms:
1.) I keep going out to the garage and looking at the motorcycles.
2.) I have worn out my playstation III controller playing MotoGP 08
3.) I have every race form World Superbike saved on my DVR
4.) Eugene Laverty has won the Assen race 14 times so for this year
5.) I have race gas in the lawn mower, I won't mow the grass with out it.
6.) I have 74 friends on face book only my mom and wife are not on motorcycles
7.) I take two quick laps around the neighborhood, At lap two I go back in the garage before someone calls 911
8.) I am going to VIR for Keith Code next Monday
9.) I'm driving twelve hours out of my way to see MotoGP qualifying at Indy on Saturday
10.) I want to race in the WERA National Series in September
11.)I want to do a track day in October
12.) my wife says she is going to leave if I don't stop.....
13.) Room mate wanted to share expenses
Are there any other addicts out there with your own symptoms? Would you like to join then it could be called "Group Therapy".
Hi Fossilfuel,
You forget to mention about being caught quite often quick-turning and leaning your shopping cart too......
-
Morning DBtriple....
A very interesting post in itself, mainly due to the inaccuracy about Coach salaries..
I'm not sure if the greater public actually know, but of the 90 worldwide coaches that make up the coaching rosta, there are only a very small handfull that are fulltime. The rest of us have real jobs, , we do this because we love riding, we love what the school has brought to our own riding, and we're all passionate about our's and our students learning. We essentially get paid a nominal fee, but it's buttons for a 13 hour day of setting up and coaching and packing up at the end of the day, so we do this for our passion of riding, and for sharing the knowledge. It's hard doing 15-18 days a year in my case juggling personal life with work commitments, and so on, but we do, and we do because of people like you, people who crave and love to learn more about what it is we've learnt.
So my friend, just for you, I created a new post... because you're interested... so look it up, and get posting, and sharing your thoughts.
Bullet
Bullet,
I can see that no coach can be attracted to working as coach if they work only for the coach's salary----there are many more jobs with better money reward for the actual time spent, extra time for preparation, and giving up their time with their significant ones at home for awhile.
Glad that there are group of people like you as coaches who have the passion to share their experience of riding and improve our skills.
-
...........Most of the time now when I see gravel, I can judge that it's not enough to cause a problem, so I don't bother with the slowing down part, I just try to keep the throttle steady or continue slight roll-on and let the wheels slide and catch.................
Hi Harnois, and others who are sharing their technique and info on tires. Thanks for confirming that you can sometimes just possible to ignore the gravel and let it slide. It seems if cannot slow down early before turn, may be better to let it slide rather than brake on sand during turn.
-
Hi Everyone,
Just curious about what you will do when see sand ( or oil) on track/road during cornering.
For the time being, I tend towards slow down before entering or committing the turn for less lean angle--- to be safe. I wonder whether it is necessary and would like to hear the experience of those who slides at corners a lot. Will smooth throttle control (maintanence throttle ) take care of the slippery condition?
May be able to try the slide bike one day will change my reaction during same situation.
Any experience on this to share? Thanks.
-
Well.....Core strength is the basis of most sports these days, so I'd say that along with the lower body and legs would have to be the key. My embryonic attempts at moving my arse off the seat seems to put a fair bit of stress on the thighs - I'm not sure the seat on the triple is really ideal for sliding from side to side. Seems more like an up and over type of thing which takes some effort.
But I keep trying!
Hi dbtriple, you may want to make sure your leather is good fit---(especially the pant not baggy, 1 piece leather is highly recommanded and a must for me at drills). it will help you hangoff with 1 leg locking the bike with ease-- and the inner foot off the inner peg, and with both hands completely off the handlebar at same time. You will find this exercise helpful at level 3, especially in the hook turn drill. You will have fun and new skills at level3.
Wow, I never thought about this detail, but I'm glad you mentioned it - I am hanging off more and having a bit of trouble locking in securely. I have plenty of Stomp Grip on my bike - but my leathers are a bit loose and it never dawned on me that my knee/thigh might be sliding within my leathers. I bet that is part of my difficulty, and of course that would not be easily observed. I'm going to watch for this on my next track day, you may have cleared up a little mystery for me! Thanks for that clever idea.
Glad that we all find something to blame when not able to hang-off easily and well----our leather, and it is valid.
If we do not need to break-in the leather, or we can standup comfortably without lowering the zipper, the leather is too big.
See how nice fit Keith is in his leather:
http://www.superbikeschool.co.uk/keithcode.php
Looks less comfortable when standing but will be perfect at riding position. I learn something from this picture.
-
Well.....Core strength is the basis of most sports these days, so I'd say that along with the lower body and legs would have to be the key. My embryonic attempts at moving my arse off the seat seems to put a fair bit of stress on the thighs - I'm not sure the seat on the triple is really ideal for sliding from side to side. Seems more like an up and over type of thing which takes some effort.
But I keep trying!
Hi dbtriple, you may want to make sure your leather is good fit---(especially the pant not baggy, 1 piece leather is highly recommanded and a must for me at drills). it will help you hangoff with 1 leg locking the bike with ease-- and the inner foot off the inner peg, and with both hands completely off the handlebar at same time. You will find this exercise helpful at level 3, especially in the hook turn drill. You will have fun and new skills at level3.
I have participated in track days. I am not unfamilar to the track. 
:)
) you want to keep that 200mph from entry all the way through and out the corner.
Braking Deeper And Level 3
in Cornering and Techniques
Posted
Sean,
The level 3 has techniques that will help one to save a bad line. If I remember correctly, student are asked to intentional make a bad drive and then correct it with the new techniques. I find that some drills at level 1 such as quick turn, become more exciting and important as one has more confidence for higher entry speed with skills from level 3. I cannot recall spending too much time at learning to brake at level 3, instead I spend more time to exercise at higher entry speed with body position and quicker turn.
I believe that one who crashes at level 1 or 2, can probably save with the level 3 skills. Hope you can join level 3 soon and find out.