RE03 Posted November 25, 2009 Report Share Posted November 25, 2009 Hi there Learnéd Chaps! Enjoyed learning the techniques on levels 1&2 (when's 3!) immensely but now I have a problem. My nemesis now is Turn 2, the "Bookatrack Banking" at Anglesey Circuit, Wales. It is a well-banked 180 degree hairpin and when I pick my point and enter, quite late and therefore quite high up in the banking, by the time it comes to spot my exit, I can see my apex but can't turn my head up high enough to see the straight as I am banked right over heading downwards into the apex. Am I doing the whole corner wrong and is there a special way of coping with banked hairpins, ie, flat-out on the inside, or constant line up the top as the banking will negate the need for lean? I tried a few different things but want to know the "right" way as you guys are the Gods ;O) Many thanks in advance! Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullet Posted November 25, 2009 Report Share Posted November 25, 2009 Hi there Learnéd Chaps! Enjoyed learning the techniques on levels 1&2 (when's 3!) immensely but now I have a problem. My nemesis now is Turn 2, the "Bookatrack Banking" at Anglesey Circuit, Wales. It is a well-banked 180 degree hairpin and when I pick my point and enter, quite late and therefore quite high up in the banking, by the time it comes to spot my exit, I can see my apex but can't turn my head up high enough to see the straight as I am banked right over heading downwards into the apex. Am I doing the whole corner wrong and is there a special way of coping with banked hairpins, ie, flat-out on the inside, or constant line up the top as the banking will negate the need for lean? I tried a few different things but want to know the "right" way as you guys are the Gods ;O) Many thanks in advance! Rob Any pics available of how you hang off the bike? Bullet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RE03 Posted November 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 25, 2009 Hi there Learnéd Chaps! Enjoyed learning the techniques on levels 1&2 (when's 3!) immensely but now I have a problem. My nemesis now is Turn 2, the "Bookatrack Banking" at Anglesey Circuit, Wales. It is a well-banked 180 degree hairpin and when I pick my point and enter, quite late and therefore quite high up in the banking, by the time it comes to spot my exit, I can see my apex but can't turn my head up high enough to see the straight as I am banked right over heading downwards into the apex. Am I doing the whole corner wrong and is there a special way of coping with banked hairpins, ie, flat-out on the inside, or constant line up the top as the banking will negate the need for lean? I tried a few different things but want to know the "right" way as you guys are the Gods ;O) Many thanks in advance! Rob Any pics available of how you hang off the bike? Bullet Hey Bullet, Only this one........ but it's not on the corner mentioned. Still waiting for Level 3 for body positioning but any help appreciated! Cheers Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullet Posted November 26, 2009 Report Share Posted November 26, 2009 Ok, thanks for the pic. So, assuming you ride like that all the time, I don't think you're hanging off to far, which often causes this problem. So, question time, (you didn't think it would be easy did you?) How well can you see out of your helmet? (this has been discussed a lot in one of the other threads on here). Where is your Apex on that turn? If we could think of it as the bottom half of a clock face please that would help, with entry to the turn as 3 O'clock, and Exit at 9 O'clock) You talked about being able to see your Apex, when should you be looking further up the track for your exit? Ta very much, lets see what we can work out. Bullet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RE03 Posted November 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Ok, thanks for the pic. So, assuming you ride like that all the time, I don't think you're hanging off to far, which often causes this problem. So, question time, (you didn't think it would be easy did you?) How well can you see out of your helmet? (this has been discussed a lot in one of the other threads on here). Where is your Apex on that turn? If we could think of it as the bottom half of a clock face please that would help, with entry to the turn as 3 O'clock, and Exit at 9 O'clock) You talked about being able to see your Apex, when should you be looking further up the track for your exit? Ta very much, lets see what we can work out. Bullet Hi Bullet, Cheers for following this one, as for my helmet, the view I get from the OGK is quite good with no problems to date. I wish I could draw this for you but, OK, using your clock idea, my apex is about 7.30 with turn in at about 4.45, high up on the bank. Maybe I am getting the three-step wrong but I approach on the extreme outside of track, locate turn point (4.45-ish), look for apex (7.30) before actually turning in, confirm apex with wide view, pick up eyes and try to find 3rd point up track whilst heading down the bank with a final pick-up and gas about 9ish. It's this coming down the track from high up to the apex which is causing the problem. This line should work well on flat corners but it's the banked part of things that is throwing me a bit, wondering if a major rethink on the whole corner is required and if it can be done better/ a different line/method. I need a defined way of doing these corners as what I have learned so far makes every corner feel comfortable and planted , which is good, whereas this one just feels "wrong" and not completely in control. Cheers again! Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullet Posted November 27, 2009 Report Share Posted November 27, 2009 Ok, thanks for the pic. So, assuming you ride like that all the time, I don't think you're hanging off to far, which often causes this problem. So, question time, (you didn't think it would be easy did you?) How well can you see out of your helmet? (this has been discussed a lot in one of the other threads on here). Where is your Apex on that turn? If we could think of it as the bottom half of a clock face please that would help, with entry to the turn as 3 O'clock, and Exit at 9 O'clock) You talked about being able to see your Apex, when should you be looking further up the track for your exit? Ta very much, lets see what we can work out. Bullet Hi Bullet, Cheers for following this one, as for my helmet, the view I get from the OGK is quite good with no problems to date. I wish I could draw this for you but, OK, using your clock idea, my apex is about 7.30 with turn in at about 4.45, high up on the bank. Maybe I am getting the three-step wrong but I approach on the extreme outside of track, locate turn point (4.45-ish), look for apex (7.30) before actually turning in, confirm apex with wide view, pick up eyes and try to find 3rd point up track whilst heading down the bank with a final pick-up and gas about 9ish. It's this coming down the track from high up to the apex which is causing the problem. This line should work well on flat corners but it's the banked part of things that is throwing me a bit, wondering if a major rethink on the whole corner is required and if it can be done better/ a different line/method. I need a defined way of doing these corners as what I have learned so far makes every corner feel comfortable and planted , which is good, whereas this one just feels "wrong" and not completely in control. Cheers again! Rob So, I'd sugegst from experience of riding there, that your Apex is possibly a little early, and that it's more like 8-8-30 using our clock analogy. Its possible for these kind of corners you may attack them with two Apexes, with one early in the turn (say you're 4 o'clock), then letting the bike run out up the banking a little, then down to the second exit as you come down of the banking. A question resonates in my mind here. When is it you think you should be looking away from your Apex to your exit? (the area thats causing you your problem in essence). How close should you be to it be for trying to look up the track? Bullet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Progression Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RE03 Posted December 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 3, 2009 Ok, thanks for the pic. So, assuming you ride like that all the time, I don't think you're hanging off to far, which often causes this problem. So, question time, (you didn't think it would be easy did you?) How well can you see out of your helmet? (this has been discussed a lot in one of the other threads on here). Where is your Apex on that turn? If we could think of it as the bottom half of a clock face please that would help, with entry to the turn as 3 O'clock, and Exit at 9 O'clock) You talked about being able to see your Apex, when should you be looking further up the track for your exit? Ta very much, lets see what we can work out. Bullet Hi Bullet, Cheers for following this one, as for my helmet, the view I get from the OGK is quite good with no problems to date. I wish I could draw this for you but, OK, using your clock idea, my apex is about 7.30 with turn in at about 4.45, high up on the bank. Maybe I am getting the three-step wrong but I approach on the extreme outside of track, locate turn point (4.45-ish), look for apex (7.30) before actually turning in, confirm apex with wide view, pick up eyes and try to find 3rd point up track whilst heading down the bank with a final pick-up and gas about 9ish. It's this coming down the track from high up to the apex which is causing the problem. This line should work well on flat corners but it's the banked part of things that is throwing me a bit, wondering if a major rethink on the whole corner is required and if it can be done better/ a different line/method. I need a defined way of doing these corners as what I have learned so far makes every corner feel comfortable and planted , which is good, whereas this one just feels "wrong" and not completely in control. Cheers again! Rob So, I'd sugegst from experience of riding there, that your Apex is possibly a little early, and that it's more like 8-8-30 using our clock analogy. Its possible for these kind of corners you may attack them with two Apexes, with one early in the turn (say you're 4 o'clock), then letting the bike run out up the banking a little, then down to the second exit as you come down of the banking. A question resonates in my mind here. When is it you think you should be looking away from your Apex to your exit? (the area thats causing you your problem in essence). How close should you be to it be for trying to look up the track? Bullet Hey Bullet I think you may be zeroing in on the problem here with the timing-of-the-look thought in your last sentence. I've been thinking about this for the last couple of days to really work out what's going on and the double apex may be worth a go but don't you find it's quite tight for that? As you rightly said it all gets a bit vague in the exit part of the corner and in reply to your question I actually look for my final exit point about ½ way from my turn-in point to the actual apex, make a quick note of it and then try and look up asap. Maybe the problem is that it's fine writing it down but perhaps I am not looking up quick enough- maybe due to the banking etc. etc that is going on ( all of a sudden a new "unsure of" element has been thrown in and it's all too much for the ole grey matter), I don't know. When should I be looking up? Just to refresh my memory..... Also is it true that speeds are higher on banked corners? Perhaps I may be trying to do it all too quickly and more practice is needed first before winding up the speed (?), after all that is how you teach the skills in the first place isn't it..... Cheers! Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullet Posted December 4, 2009 Report Share Posted December 4, 2009 Ok, thanks for the pic. So, assuming you ride like that all the time, I don't think you're hanging off to far, which often causes this problem. So, question time, (you didn't think it would be easy did you?) How well can you see out of your helmet? (this has been discussed a lot in one of the other threads on here). Where is your Apex on that turn? If we could think of it as the bottom half of a clock face please that would help, with entry to the turn as 3 O'clock, and Exit at 9 O'clock) You talked about being able to see your Apex, when should you be looking further up the track for your exit? Ta very much, lets see what we can work out. Bullet Hi Bullet, Cheers for following this one, as for my helmet, the view I get from the OGK is quite good with no problems to date. I wish I could draw this for you but, OK, using your clock idea, my apex is about 7.30 with turn in at about 4.45, high up on the bank. Maybe I am getting the three-step wrong but I approach on the extreme outside of track, locate turn point (4.45-ish), look for apex (7.30) before actually turning in, confirm apex with wide view, pick up eyes and try to find 3rd point up track whilst heading down the bank with a final pick-up and gas about 9ish. It's this coming down the track from high up to the apex which is causing the problem. This line should work well on flat corners but it's the banked part of things that is throwing me a bit, wondering if a major rethink on the whole corner is required and if it can be done better/ a different line/method. I need a defined way of doing these corners as what I have learned so far makes every corner feel comfortable and planted , which is good, whereas this one just feels "wrong" and not completely in control. Cheers again! Rob So, I'd sugegst from experience of riding there, that your Apex is possibly a little early, and that it's more like 8-8-30 using our clock analogy. Its possible for these kind of corners you may attack them with two Apexes, with one early in the turn (say you're 4 o'clock), then letting the bike run out up the banking a little, then down to the second exit as you come down of the banking. A question resonates in my mind here. When is it you think you should be looking away from your Apex to your exit? (the area thats causing you your problem in essence). How close should you be to it be for trying to look up the track? Bullet Hey Bullet I think you may be zeroing in on the problem here with the timing-of-the-look thought in your last sentence. I've been thinking about this for the last couple of days to really work out what's going on and the double apex may be worth a go but don't you find it's quite tight for that? As you rightly said it all gets a bit vague in the exit part of the corner and in reply to your question I actually look for my final exit point about ½ way from my turn-in point to the actual apex, make a quick note of it and then try and look up asap. Maybe the problem is that it's fine writing it down but perhaps I am not looking up quick enough- maybe due to the banking etc. etc that is going on ( all of a sudden a new "unsure of" element has been thrown in and it's all too much for the ole grey matter), I don't know. When should I be looking up? Just to refresh my memory..... Also is it true that speeds are higher on banked corners? Perhaps I may be trying to do it all too quickly and more practice is needed first before winding up the speed (?), after all that is how you teach the skills in the first place isn't it..... Cheers! Rob Hi mate, Yeah, I though we might be getting to a timing problem to be honest, but we'll come back to that in a moment. with respect to the having two Apexs, what I'm talking about is clippping (or as close as you feel comfortable) to the white line, then letting the bike drift out a little bit, i.e. you're not hugging right on the white line all the way around. You might only drift 6-8 feet, maybe more, very personal thing really, but you're making a second Apex and it needs to be later on. So, we're going to have a think about the primary difference between our two step (start of your turn), and your 3rd Step. Now, if you think back, and think about riding you only look into the turn when you're sure you're going to do what? Carrying this them forwards, do you think it could be the case that we only look away from our Apex (2nd in this corner), when we're sure we're going to do what? Only at this point we'll look up the track for our exit! Is it true speeds are higher in banked turns, yeah, thats true, but do you understand why? The reason is because every angle of positive Camber on the turn, is a degree of angle you don't have to apply to the bike to go through the turn, so for example if you have a 20degree camber on the turn, thats an extra 20 degrees of lean angle you get back in your favour, which of course means more corner speed. Make sense? If you can think about the timing of the look away from turn points and apexs, we'll be close to cracking this my friend, and yeah, try and practice this a bit slower, say 60-70%, then start to add the speed back in once you've nailed the timing sequence. Bullet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RE03 Posted December 8, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2009 Ok, thanks for the pic. So, assuming you ride like that all the time, I don't think you're hanging off to far, which often causes this problem. So, question time, (you didn't think it would be easy did you?) How well can you see out of your helmet? (this has been discussed a lot in one of the other threads on here). Where is your Apex on that turn? If we could think of it as the bottom half of a clock face please that would help, with entry to the turn as 3 O'clock, and Exit at 9 O'clock) You talked about being able to see your Apex, when should you be looking further up the track for your exit? Ta very much, lets see what we can work out. Bullet Hi Bullet, Cheers for following this one, as for my helmet, the view I get from the OGK is quite good with no problems to date. I wish I could draw this for you but, OK, using your clock idea, my apex is about 7.30 with turn in at about 4.45, high up on the bank. Maybe I am getting the three-step wrong but I approach on the extreme outside of track, locate turn point (4.45-ish), look for apex (7.30) before actually turning in, confirm apex with wide view, pick up eyes and try to find 3rd point up track whilst heading down the bank with a final pick-up and gas about 9ish. It's this coming down the track from high up to the apex which is causing the problem. This line should work well on flat corners but it's the banked part of things that is throwing me a bit, wondering if a major rethink on the whole corner is required and if it can be done better/ a different line/method. I need a defined way of doing these corners as what I have learned so far makes every corner feel comfortable and planted , which is good, whereas this one just feels "wrong" and not completely in control. Cheers again! Rob So, I'd sugegst from experience of riding there, that your Apex is possibly a little early, and that it's more like 8-8-30 using our clock analogy. Its possible for these kind of corners you may attack them with two Apexes, with one early in the turn (say you're 4 o'clock), then letting the bike run out up the banking a little, then down to the second exit as you come down of the banking. A question resonates in my mind here. When is it you think you should be looking away from your Apex to your exit? (the area thats causing you your problem in essence). How close should you be to it be for trying to look up the track? Bullet Hey Bullet [/color] I think you may be zeroing in on the problem here with the timing-of-the-look thought in your last sentence. I've been thinking about this for the last couple of days to really work out what's going on and the double apex may be worth a go but don't you find it's quite tight for that? As you rightly said it all gets a bit vague in the exit part of the corner and in reply to your question I actually look for my final exit point about ½ way from my turn-in point to the actual apex, make a quick note of it and then try and look up asap. Maybe the problem is that it's fine writing it down but perhaps I am not looking up quick enough- maybe due to the banking etc. etc that is going on ( all of a sudden a new "unsure of" element has been thrown in and it's all too much for the ole grey matter), I don't know. When should I be looking up? Just to refresh my memory..... Also is it true that speeds are higher on banked corners? Perhaps I may be trying to do it all too quickly and more practice is needed first before winding up the speed (?), after all that is how you teach the skills in the first place isn't it..... Cheers! Rob Hi mate, Yeah, I though we might be getting to a timing problem to be honest, but we'll come back to that in a moment. with respect to the having two Apexs, what I'm talking about is clippping (or as close as you feel comfortable) to the white line, then letting the bike drift out a little bit, i.e. you're not hugging right on the white line all the way around. You might only drift 6-8 feet, maybe more, very personal thing really, but you're making a second Apex and it needs to be later on. So, we're going to have a think about the primary difference between our two step (start of your turn), and your 3rd Step. Now, if you think back, and think about riding you only look into the turn when you're sure you're going to do what? Carrying this them forwards, do you think it could be the case that we only look away from our Apex (2nd in this corner), when we're sure we're going to do what? Only at this point we'll look up the track for our exit! Is it true speeds are higher in banked turns, yeah, thats true, but do you understand why? The reason is because every angle of positive Camber on the turn, is a degree of angle you don't have to apply to the bike to go through the turn, so for example if you have a 20degree camber on the turn, thats an extra 20 degrees of lean angle you get back in your favour, which of course means more corner speed. Make sense? If you can think about the timing of the look away from turn points and apexs, we'll be close to cracking this my friend, and yeah, try and practice this a bit slower, say 60-70%, then start to add the speed back in once you've nailed the timing sequence. Bullet Sounds like a reasonable solution Bullet, all of which makes perfect sense. At last I have a plan, so I'll try out what you said. It's all very well "having a go" but if there is a way to do something then that's what I want to know, so that's a big help. When I was learning the 2 & 3 step, I remember saying to Butch that I do look into the corner but don't know what at. Once the reference points were mentioned it all made sense- the speed you could carry into the corners once everything slowed down was amazing. Anyhow... don't look so high up/far, one turn at a time once the turn point has been highlighted...yellow crosses, job done... easy really huh ? Practice practice practice... roll on level 3... Cheers for the assist Bullet, much appreciated Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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