bellevuetlr
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Posts posted by bellevuetlr
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Yesterday, at the track, I figured out my problem (inconsistent times) since CSS levels one and two. At our East track I used to run 1:08, having done 1:07 once. Strictly. MAYBE the occasional 1:10, but I was otherwise like clockwork. I was stuck, and knew I needed help. And the school did just that. Helped me. I have things to learn now that I KNOW are going to make me faster, and have really improved and become even more comfortable. But my times are wildly inconsistent. I do 1:08-1:11 now, and have the faster lap here and there, and have even done a 1:03. Once. It's a small track, so no one, not even someone at my level, should have a 3-4 second difference in times.
I couldn't figure out what was going on, and then it hit me. It was something I remembered from school when I was flagged by a corner worker. It was my two input turning technique that I had perfected. I used engine braking (takes control from you in setting corner speed) and, naturally, after being in too slow after the first input, I gas it to get myself around the corner as I lean it in more.
That's bad, and here's why. When I'm leaned in I should be getting on the throttle and maintaining lean. Leaning in farther decreases available traction, and getting on the throttle before or while I'm increasing my lean (making my second input) increases wheel spin WHILE I'm reducing traction. That's not just asking for trouble. It's actually telling the bike that I WANT trouble. I've lowsided once, and just chalked it up to too much throttle. I'll bet a lot of money that this is what caused it. I've gotten off the throttle since the lowside, as I thought I had reached and surpassed my tires capacity.
The thing is that with my new-found ability to quickturn I've also become inconsistent in my lean angle through every corner. And I don't make adjustments, I just follow the one input policy to turning. My angle has decreased, as my feeler (knee) doesn't make it to the ground near as much as it used to. I'm there-fore slower altogether.
Is it just practice and increased confidence that will get me to do 1:03's consistently, or is there something to my technique? It's only my second trackday since the school in October because I've been sick, but I'm going to hopefully get a couple in before the summer heat strikes.
And in a couple of weeks I'm doing Inde Motorsports Ranch. Brand new track in Wilcox, Az.
Its good that you were able to analyze your riding.
IMO your corner speed is not only a factor of your turn in rate but how much you brake also. just practice and slowly up the pace. on a 600, its really important that you get the whole corner correct so that you are at the peak of your powerband as you are exiting to maintain good speed. if you screw up the entry, you tend to charge the apex and then you end up wide or you just dont have enough rpm to get your bike to shoot out. Also, relying on engine braking to set your entry speed is wasting time-it should be either on the brakes or throttle.
lastly, it doesnt hurt to ask a local for tips. have someone take you out for a few laps and you will be amazed how much faster you can be with the right person leading you.
good luck!
ps..i envy you guys.. riding season doesnt start until next month for us in the central region.
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tell me.... have you tried doing this while leaned over coming out from a fast corner and then entering a slower corner?
I don't know about Cobie, but that is the only circumstance where I do clutcless downshifts on a roadrace bike, Turn 8 at Willow Springs is 6th gear pinned and I drop two gears for turn 9 without the clutch. At a good pace your leaned over quite far when you do the downshifts. Worked pretty well when I set a lap record.
wow... i was thinking the opposite. do you brake for the corner or do you just let off? i assume you have a slipper clutch on your bike?
you got me all curious now... im going to have to give this a go this year. the main reason i use the clutch is i quit blipping the throttle. it enabled me to be really smooth with the brake and removed any jerkiness when entering the corner. so all i had to really do is modulate both levers while entering.. its easier for me to do than to brake while reving- this is on a 600rr. when i used to have a 10r with an slipper, i just banged the gears down quickly releasing the clutch without blipping and it worked well.
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tell me.... have you tried doing this while leaned over coming out from a fast corner and then entering a slower corner?
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Jason Pridmore is big into using the clutch to modulate rear traction...attention drain IMHO.
Clutchless upshifts (or down if you use GP) works very well when in full-boogie mode.
I could see a miniscule advantage for going 5th gear to 2nd, but again I've learned to blip/change w/o thinking about it. Like the above was said it's a very small Return on Investment for something that may have high risk (?).
Jason only recommends it for downshifting not upshifts. no reason to use the clutch on upshifts.
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Con for Clutched downshifts (downshift using the clutch)
There is a lot going on at corner entry. A rider has to pay attention to their entry speed, turn point, front end traction and feel, quick turn, visual references and so on. Using the clutch to control your rear traction on the way into a corner takes a lot of skill and attention, you might be better off spending more of that $10 on your entry speed or front end feel.
is that what the school is teaching?
i agree that its not something that someone with little experience should focus on. different people different strokes i guess.
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clutchless downshifts...
cons
i would rather deal with a messed up upshift than a downshift especially going at pace. having to downshift 2-4 gears after a straight without clutch modulation is going to be a disaster. and your clutch is not only used for chaning gear but is also used for traction management with or without slipper clutch especially when you are trail braking.
i dont see any benefit of clutchless downshifting.
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good discussion... although i think this topic has been covered a few months ago.. i think
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The only thing in there that we don't already teach at the school is putting your feet past the end of the footpeg. I disagree with this as a technique because it will make your chances of dragging your toes on the pavement much greater. His reasoning is that you get more leverage on the pegs when your put your feet way out on the edge and I think this benefit is negligible. You can jump around on the pegs pretty hard and it doesn't affect a sportbike at speed very much, I don't think moving your feet a few inches further out is going to make much difference.
Yup. I agree with you on this. Its all a pile of BS. Leverage can be achieve using multiple anchor points not just the inside foot. I have no problem with people following this method, I just dont like it when they push it to people like its the only way. Especially when the big dogs are doing completely different things.
Thats why I really like KC comments on taking advice... people need to learn to weed out fluff.
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What would happen if the rider just let go of the brakes at his turnpoint?
the suspension will unload and screw up his entry...
Because the fella in front is protecting his line, riding defensively, trail braking to the apex to stuff the guy behind him.thats not the only reason you trail the brakes. and you dont have to trail the brakes all the way to the apex either. it really depends on what type of corner you are attacking.
easing off the brakes is considered trailing. i dont think anyone is just 100% percent brakes and 0% all of the sudden... otherwise, youll be experiencing chatter at turn in. to me, eveything is about smoothness....
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i actually dont have a problem with hangingoff.. i do think its a little too far.. its really trivial... but i think i exagerate it more during corner exit to pick the bike up a bit earlier.. excuse all the jabber from the other posts.. i just miss riding is all. the last post was more to share the cool pics i stole from another forum.
as far as the head thing... the general position that they have it from what ive observed in leaned along with the bike.. obviously, they would turn it to look for the apex and exit but once they are inline and exiting, the head will be back in that position.. i dont see many top riders position themselves like doohan or schwantz... i think the only time your head will be completely leveled like that is if you were sitting straight up or riding crosse up.
if you go to the site where i got the pics from, theres one picture of spies exiting a corner with his head leaned with the bike looking straight. pretty cool photo.
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below are a few pictures to ponder on... note Lorenzo's eyes on the first photo. that is the only challenge visually... having to strain your eyes to look upwards.. other than that, when i do it, i do not have a problem looking through the apex and exit.
and to comment on my avatar picture, im actually not hanging off too much there. my body is to the inside but i was still sitting pretty upright. i made breakthroughs with my riding that helped me gain more speed through the corner. i pretty much focused on getting my nipples on the opposite side of the tank for each corner pulling my body down to the tank. i cant wait to ride again next year.
And the Master at work... Im the same size as Rossi btw except that im about 200 lbs.
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i always thought that was interesting how the top racers just let their head lean with the bike and not twist it so that its parallel to the ground. ive always ridden like that. i always thought it was a lot harder to see than when you have your head level. but im so used to it that it really doesnt bother me. i catch myself having to stretch my eyes to look for the apex though.
and bullet, we have the same suit. lol
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Guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this point. F
Whilst it's not that single factor in itself, it can surely be of no concidence they're trying to optimise and make best use of as much techniques as possible to their disposal?
Bullet
you got me wrong buddy. i completely agree with what you are saying. there is a reason why all the best riders hang off that way. i was just pointing out that not everyone who is crossed up have troubles turning their head... its actually easier to move your head around with a more upright position than when you are all low and to the inside...
and in the end, its all about traction management especially at the point when the tires start giving off in a race. -
Do you find it easy to look over your shoulder, when it's facing the wrong direction, i.e. into towards the bike, and away from where you're actually going. Seems pretty sub optimal to me. There are other reasons why these riders do this, but I'm not going to go into it on here. You'll find all that out if you do level 2 and get on the lean bike, and do level 3 physical drills.
Bullet
me? i dont ride crossed up at all. the vision thing doesnt have anything to do with body position though. bayliss was able to look through turns and so does everyone else i know who rides that way. it doesnt mean that its right though. its all about traction and clearance. everything that you do boils down to those two things. vision is something else. its given that riders should look where they should go.
i dont have very many photos of myself since im usually photog duty but the 2pics below kinda shows how i usually ride. these were back in july.. ive since made some breakthroughs and body position is a lot closer to the tank.
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to add to what other already said...
your entry point is relative to your speed. you might want to turn in earlier or turn in faster which you guys already covered.
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my 2cents
being crossed up doesnt limit riders from turning their head to the direction of the turn. the reason to pull your head and upper body to the inside it to give the bike more clearance/traction at a certain speed compared to sitting crossed up. makes corner exits mor manageable and faster.
the only difference i see from elias and lorenzo is that elias likes to hang his ass way out there. hes got both his cheeks off the seat while lorenzo is barely hanging off. both of their spines are to the inside of the bike and is parallel to the bike. besides bayliss and hodgson, vermulen (sp?), i havent seen anyone else in motogp that is crossed up on the bike except when not at pace.
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1st - I want to applaud everyone for all the replies. this forums has to be the most mature/open minded/willing group on the internet.
2nd - Andy... You really need to consider doing a lot more trackdays buddy. I've crashed maybe 6 times this year all at the track and the worst i got from it is a rash on my pinky finger. Sliding tires and going wide on turns on the street gives me scary thoughts. Just be careful out there man. I know a few local street guys who lost their lives due to preventable accidents on the street.
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maybe rossi rides a lot of supermoto?
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when your tires are squirming... ex... mid corner you add throttle and your rear slipped or your front wants to tuck... that is the limit. you have body position to give you more clearance at a certain speed... but once youve reached that limit, theres really nothing else you can do but be smooth. no reason to do this on in a trackday..
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all of them are important. but maybe sense of traction?
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Ok Guys,
I guess I was not good at making a point. I live in Hawaii and I have two motorcycles. One is a 2006 Kawaski 636 (108 hp), weight 402 lbs and I have a 2008 Honda CBR1000RR (160 hp), weight 432lbs with full Ohlins suspension. I have my favorite road to go down and I have been going down this road on the 636 faster than on the 1000. I have never been on a track and have had no on hand instruction. What is it going to take for me to go faster on the 1000 than the 636?
108hp/408lbs vs 160hp/432lbs
this is how zoran would put it.... open throttle f(#*ng p@#@y
on a serious note, to piggy back what other people on here already said... its probably all mental and how your ride the bike. liter bikes are point and shoot, 600s require momentum.. although the new hondas have some great midrange, you usually need to wring their neck mid corner to get descent corner exit.
i dont know of a book that covers these issues.
but bottom line... zoran's comment has validity.. to go faster, you must have the balls to twist your right hand not only on the straight away. but during cornering... especially after the apex and exiting.
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both bikes should be fine and are capable of turning fast laps around a race track. i saw your video and first thing that came to mind is you need to get yourself off the street or else youll kill yourself. secondly, get some one on one instruction to help you out. it looked like you tucked the front of the bike. without knowing your set up and your riding habits, people can only make assumptions. hope this helps.
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1) Sometimes, when I get a corner right and roll on the gas fairly aggressively, the rear digs and then the suspension compresses from centrifugal force. Is this an okay thing to do?
2) If there are fast chicanes, the bike can seem to bounce from extreme left leaning to extreme right leaning. Is this safe?
3) If I need more cornering force, I hang off, and eventhough the turn radius is reduced, the tire starts squirming or sliding a bit immediately. I assume this is because the thrust center is misaligned from the center of gravity. Is this desirable for street riding? Why or why not?
Thanks.
sounds like suspension issues. have you set your sag/rebound/comp yet?
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is it safe to assume that people who post in these forums have a general idea of what twist of the wrist is about?
and in the end, its all about traction management especially at the point when the tires start giving off in a race.
Getting On The Throttle Asap
in Cornering and Techniques
Posted
i see him feed the clutch multiple times while entering. blipping is so 90's... lol