Bullet
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Posts posted by Bullet
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Hi Kai,
The big reason that the we want to do this, (as much as possible), is because the fork (lets take for example), same gos for rear but we also have linkage rations which also complicate this further), rises in it's ressistance the further you go through the fork. This is not because the spring rate changes, as it doesn't, but becuase the air gap between the oil and the forks gets compressed greatly and ramps greatly it's ressitance towards the end of the stroke (hence why changing oil weight and oil gap are fine tuning options on the bike.
We obviously neeed oil in the forks and gas in the rear to control the stroke and it's rate of progress through the stroke and I understand this is a by product of the compromise of suspension. We need the suspension to be compliant to allow the wheel to soak up bumps, and also to track the road surface and not transfering those large bumps/ripples or whatever to the bike.
I hope this simply helps explain, I don't have the very detailed in depth explanation of it, but it's enough for me to know, appreicate and feel the difference in it when i set my bikes up for it.
Bullet
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Nothing sounds, nor feels like a Ducati... the end. The BMW is a stunningly competent, and very fast bike, probably by far the best of the litre bikes out of the box by a mile. You can't argue with the value for money of the things either, really, really impressive.
If you like Ducati's turn up your speakers and enjoy
Oh, this is my Ducati, and it makes about 200HP and sounds very, very angry.
Bullet
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oww do matey !
be prepared and bored of more teg cadwell tales soon on the r6 5eb
. glad your back mate .....
hi fella,
Is that bike of yours finally finished yet? you're doing the cadwell gig in July aren't you? I'll see you there if you are mate. You can show ME around.
Bullet
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BTW, reading back overthis, I think Bullet was right on with this comment:
I'd wager there's both factors at play here, you're understanding of what your bike will do, and removing your attention from the tyres into the turns might be a massive factor here?
I definitely do better when I think about the turn itself rather than about what the tires are doing. But, when that leads me to a lean angle that is more than what I am used to, I tend to freak out a bit. Also, the slower the corner, the more I am afraid of lean.
I'm glad you agree. Over the years of coaching, I've met many, many students, looking for complexity and difficult answers to explain there problems/predicaments. In most cases the actual problem is often not the immediate one that the rider thinks it is.
The reason we ask questions by the way, is to make you think about your problem and to make you part of the answer, rather than just giving you the answer on a plate. In the riding world, there are so many, many riders full of false advice, (advice like, oh, just go faster, you'll be ok mate), and misunderstandings of "the why", and we like to cement your learning by making you part of it. After all, aren't all the best things in life, hard earned and thus fufilling?
Bullet
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Hey YellowDuck, I know exactly what you're talking about, I struggled with similar feelings for a long time. Good news is, I've learnt quite a few things which have helped alot. But first a question for you - when you're in a corner, are you concentrating on the lean angle, or the traction of the tyres?
I have tried putting my attention on different things, and find I do better if I sort of think about trying to "work the tires", i.e., consciously try to build up lateral g's, while also staying relaxed at the bars. However, even then, I eventually reach a lean angle that makes me think "eek, is my boot going to hit the ground?" You can see from the photo that that is not likely!
So, in other words, I *try* not to think about lean angle, but it ends up popping into my head at a certain point when I am farther over than normal.
What tyres are you running, what level of prep do you goto with them to establish confidence in them?
Bullet
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So, flapping knees and waggling heads. I'm just finishing watching last weekends WSBK racing from San Marino and thought I'd ask about this. It's always stood out to me how some riders in particular like Haslam seem to make a energetic "flapping" motion with their knees as they're braking and downshifting for a corner. Also the commentator noticed how much Fabrizio moves his head at different points like exiting a corner and changing direction, getting setup for another corner etc. The comment was made that he's the only person outside of a rock band that moves his head so much.
I just kind of dismissed it as "their style", and I figure they know what works for them. But then I got a bit curious and wondered if anyone knows why they actually do those things? Maybe it's part of their "rhythm", or helps them with timing? Maybe those actions help to mentally prepare and "attack"?
It's interesting because those guys look like they're working really hard with those extra movements, but you look at Biaggi as an opposite example and he's always super-smooth with not a wheel out of line and no unneeded movements.
What do you think?
I think you've nailed it on the head Mugget, it's a style thing, and actually shows in many ways they're not very stable and locked onto their bikes. All that extra movement goes into the bike as well, and you can imagine it can't help. As you rightly said, it also looks dammned hard work to doesn't it?
I also remark when questioned about such things that the very, very best riders in the world (and lets be really clear, Haslam and all the WSB riders on the grid are very, very talented front to back), don't look like they're having a fight with their bikes. Stoner is very active on his bike perhaps compared with some of the others, but if you can spot, he's really implementing many of the drills on a bike we coach at CSS. The difference being, he's doing them mid turn (in some cases), with the bike sliding/spinning up, balancing the bike on gas/traction. That's a different thing to flapping around though, that's intimate skill and feel.
Bullet
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I am pretty sure that my biggest limitation with respect to lowering my lap times is my lack of trust in my tires. I have been getting my corner speeds up but very, very gradually, and I know there is a lot more lean left in the bike if I could just get comfortable using it.
Can we ask what it is you think the tyres are going to do on you? Do you believe the bike will just spit you off mid turn with no sign or warning? do you think the bike will give you some feedback before you start a slide? How do you think that might be communicated to you?
Are you aware of the consequence of the wheels spinning, and their effect on bike stability with speed? What does a bike wheel become with more speed?
The lean angle of the bike is dictated by the speed, and it's combined mass of you and the bike. Would it be possible therefore, that your issue with lean is actually related to your sense of speed, your feeling of being comfortable with the speed you're going? i.e. if your brain was more comfortable with the speed, you'd feel capable and able to roll into the turns a little quicker, and thus you'd enter the turns a little quicker, and use more lean angle?
I'd wager there's both factors at play here, you're understanding of what your bike will do, and removing your attention from the tyres into the turns might be a massive factor here?
How can we help you? Well, certainly the TWII book is a good place to start, it will give you an understanding of the challenges and gives you some of these questions. Your next step up from this clearly is the school. Visiting the school would give you the opportunity to have the problems explained (certainly much of your issues are covered in Level 1), and some answers to fix/remedy them too. Working with an on track coach would enable your riding to be tweaked and be improved where neccesary to make sure you just nail those turns and give you a much greater confidence in your riding. I guess, which is exactly the answer you're really looking for?
Bullet
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you're welcome to pop round our house Hotfoot, and continue your services....
Bullet
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I aspire to ride a bit like that one day.
(Well you've gotta set your goals high, right? 
)Very.. let us know when you get there, and how you do it, won't you...
That's some slide, and if I ever had it going that far out wide momentarily I'd be expecting to be several feet in the air and about wear my motorbike as a piece of Jewellery.The boys definitely got talent, that's for sure, and his riding and style will be missed, by many.
Bullet
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good point there sir... all turns are not the same..hell Coach Joe said if you're inconsistent with your lines, every lap is going to be vastly different and corners will feel different every time you come around to it.
I was mainly asking about an S curve where it's pretty much a quick flick in then a quick flick out. In that situation, is this the correct way of going about it? :
1. off throttle
2. quick flick in and set line
3. throttle roll on exiting first part and entering second part
4. hold throttle steady (stop rolling on) and quick flick into the next part
5. throttle roll on once line is set
is that ok?
I guess the point is that we can now agree that every S curve is different, and thus requires an (ammendment) to the technique applied. what's really important to consider is that in most cases, the first part of the S-Bend is the least important of the two parts, and so what we need to make sure is that we can apply the correct throttle roll on for the second part of the S-Bend, and thus get good drive down the next straight. There's very little time to be made up in (the middle of) many S-Bends, but drive off the 2nd part of the turns is everything.
If you're initial roll on in the first part of the S bend gives you a bad line (i.e you're running wide and perhaps hot) then would you be able to apply the throttle rule, (in the 2nd part)? If not, what would you do to correct it?
Bullet
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hi,
Great that you really enjoyed the school.
So, you've understood why a bike turns quicker in a less stable scenario due to the geometry differences in how a bike performs. Now then consider, are all S bends the same? Would it be possible that you may need to do any of the following if the second s bend is sharp enough?
- stop the roll on? (I.e check the throttle)
-brake to set entry speed for the second part?
-be able to roll on slower?
Given the options, is there only one answer?
Bullet
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Thanks for that but I am a bit more concerned with the back. Does anyone know how much more grippy a medium would be?
Hi Mike,
You wouldn't notice any difference in laptime performance around Oulton with that tyre difference. Stick with the endurance, it'll save you a few £ on wear. Anything under 2 mins is nicely respectable, but you could easily go sub 50's on that tyre before you'd really notice any difference from a softer rear.
Bullet
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Cheers for the ealry welcome back, am looking forward to it.
@Kais, well, that's some year you've had, getting faster, crashing and moving to the other side of the world. Sounds like an experience, hopefully it's working out really well for you mate.
@Kev, thanks mate, good to be back
@Brad, great news, really good to hear you're making good progress, and clearly you're riding and enjoying it, which is really the whole point I believe? Escapism at it's best I like to think.
@Carey, liquid sunshine, love it. We get a lot of that there liquid sunshine here in the UK my friend, you learn to get used to it really, really quickly when you coach or race. A lot to be learned from the rain, hope you enjoyed it, and got some great experiences from it?
Me, well, I didn't ride much last year after leaving school. My Racebike (a Ducati 1098R), broke it's gearbox and I had to wait a longtime to get a new racebox for it, so that kind of wrote of last year. It was probably a good thing really, it made me really savour coming back to them this year, which I have a lot. My Ducati's back, (makes a nice 18^RWHP), it's lovely to ride, and I've really, really enjoyed riding again. I've done around 15 trackdays already, I've raced it in some endurance racing, (and will be doing a full season next year on her), and I've had a trip with my wife and friends to Jerez, which was really very awesome indeed. (there's some video of it, you're interested, go onto Youtube, Bullet vs Nemo, get a brew and enjoy). Oh, yeah, turned 40 as well.
Why do I want to come back to coaching? Well, there's a question? Withouth doubt, the school holds a very big draw for me. Firslyl, I enjoy it, it provides some great escapism from the day to grind of life. I really enjoy the fun and enjoyment of working with my other coaches, my friends really whom I've ridden with and coached for many years, basically missed the guys. Thirdly, well, I really just love helping people enjoy riding their motorbikes, and just getting better. It's quite a thing to see people have a good day, and well, just have fun and improve. I still believe that CSS is the best systematic way to coach people in the world and that's why I wanted to come back and be part of it. really, it's quite an honour to do it really, to interact and help you guys.
Thanks for the welcome, I'll try and help when i can, though I'll be ramping up nice and gentle, there's no doubt much to catch up on.
Keep smiling peeps,
Bullet
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So, after an 18 month (give or take), lay off, I'm rejoining the crew in the UK in August 2012. Am very much looking forward to coaching again, meeting up with students, (old friends and new), and getting around Europe helping improve your riding techniques and skills. I'll also be on here quite a bit too, see if I can help out. (we'll see).
So what have I been upto? done some racing, been riding my own bike quite a bit, and having some down time, putting efforts into other parts of my life.
So, how are you all? what you been upto? what breakthroughs and progress you been making with your riding?
Bullet
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So you ran the same rear tyre for 3 days?
Yup, you got that right. Effectively 2½ days, since we cut the last day short (didn't want to wait out 4 hours during the races to get our final session + an hour of open pitlane).
I have to say, I ran the GP racers with a slightly higher pressure last year, after advice from Dunlop UK, though I cannot tell you what it went upto because it's all in my book I make notes in, and it's just got to Jerez for my 3 day blast over next weekend, so I'm sorry about that fella. I think it was more like 26-27 Hot, but I'd like to check to be sure.
Oh, isn't that that awful for you that you have to go the the hot GP-track of Jerez instead of coming playing with me on the rural Kinnekulle Ring in cold & wet Sweden?
I don't think the wear looks that bad, though of course it's hard to say from a picture. You also can't realistically say that just swapping to brand X would resolve it either because you've seen another rider doing that on them, it could depend a lot on your bike's setup and your technique, so you could only realistically asses that by doing your own back to back comparison really on your bike, with you riding.
The wear does look worse in real life. Fortunately the tears don't appear to dig deeply into the tire.
As for changing back to the Supercorsas, do remember that I've been running them quite happily for the last two seasons - so I do have some experience in them and how I wear them. I did get the Ohlins shock serviced this winter, however.
You may actually find a softer tyre is better for higher temperatures than an endurance tire, which would be better when it's colder, as it won't cold tear as badly.
I would have thought it's a Hot Tear from what Dave Moss is saying (tear line goes up into the center of the tire & you can't get a nail into the tears), but I could easily have mixed things up.
But I do take your point on the softer tire. Too bad I don't have a tire sponsorship so I could have just dived into the van and grabbed the right compound from my stack of tires
Have fun and ride safely on Jerez.
Kai (suitably envious)
Well, I can tell you've I have seen these similar marks before on GP Racers, that I can confirm, though 4 hours hard work (remember you say you're improving all the time), really isn't that bad. I'm taking 2 fronts, and 3 rears to Jerez for 3 days. Oh, did I mention I'm going to Jerez on Thursday?
On my shiny, newly finished Ducati, that's been lavished with love and the finest suspension I could procure, new triple clamps, and rear linkages. (god it better be good). You might find the move to the Motorsport version an even better jump my friend, rather than the GP Racer? I'll let you know how they go.Sorry I can't be with you fella, but I will dig out my notes on my return for you.
Bullet
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p.s. GP Racers are made in France, (and are machine made) and GP Motorsport N-Tec's (which are more expensive) and can only be bought in either a 190 or a 200, are made (handmade) in UK.
Bullet
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So you ran the same rear tyre for 3 days?
I have to say, I ran the GP racers with a slightly higher pressure last year, after advice from Dunlop UK, though I cannot tell you what it went upto because it's all in my book I make notes in, and it's just got to Jerez for my 3 day blast over next weekend, so I'm sorry about that fella. I think it was more like 26-27 Hot, but I'd like to check to be sure.
I don't think the wear looks that bad, though of course it's hard to say from a picture. You also can't realistically say that just swapping to brand X would resolve it either because you've seen another rider doing that on them, it could depend a lot on your bike's setup and your technique, so you could only realistically asses that by doing your own back to back comparison really on your bike, with you riding.
I'll be able to tell you the pressure settings, next week mate, but until then, i'm guessing in the dark really.
You may actually find a softer tyre is better for higher temperatures than an endurance tire, which would be better when it's colder, as it won't cold tear as badly. Complex stuff this tyre stuff eh? Experimentation is the key I'm afraid. It's good that you've made comprehensive notes and measurements though, as this is key.
Bullet
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Hello Bullet and All,
Thanks for the feedback and the warnings, but I never said "roll on the throttle BEFORE turning in," and I'm talking about the turn-in, not the roll on so TCR1 literally does not apply.
Since almost everyone has misread or misunderstood my question, let me see if I can reduce it to simplest terms:- Increasing speed + Increasing lean angle = Bad. Everyone agrees.
- Reducing speed + Increasing lean angle = Good. Almost everyone agrees.
- Maintaining speed + Increasing lean angle = THIS is my question--okay or not okay?
I'm really talking about the application of TCR2--remember that one? I didn't think this was such a hard question. I'll shut up now.
Let's discuss point 3 specifically, given that we have rolling friction from turn in , (i.e. the front wheel scrubs speed went turning in and leaned over) would it therefore be fair to agree then, then the only way to maitain phsycially the same speed would be to roll on the throttle? (hence point 3, is actually point 1)? If you're confusing a checked throttle and adding lean angle, the bike is actually slowing, not maintaing the same speed.
Make sense?
Bullet
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- Rider A has looked ahead and judged that he wants to enter the turn at 60 mph. He is using enough throttle to maintain his speed of 60 mph until, and while, he tips in. (So the throttle is slightly OPEN while he leans the bike, but he's at a safe speed and not ADDING any throttle.)
Hi Crash,
I'm sorry, but you did say, gas then turn..... in a previous post, hence why I picked you up on this point, I cannot left that unresolved, because it's not correct. There are occasions when you're on the gas before you turn in, in perhaps kinks on racetracks, but as a general rule, we're not rolling on or on checked gas before turning in. (as a general rule I must stress).
I'll answer your question in the next post.
Bullet
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Thanks for all your feedback. I appreciate your taking the time to respond. I have been out playing in traffic for about a week now, and here is what I learned:
- It was fun trying to time everything perfectly and roll off the throttle just before the turn in. It worked fine. The bike liked to turn that way and it's was not hard to do. At the same time, any advantage gained by using momentum to change the steering geometry seemed small at the speeds I was riding.
- Making an effort to enter corners on the brakes was a pain in the seat warmer. Again, I may have gained a small advantage in turn-in speed, but I had to enter corners hotter than I normally would in order to need to use the brakes. On the other hand, I did trail brake all the way to the apex in the second corner of a downhill right-left corkscrew. I needed to do it and had no problems using the technique when necessary.
- Setting my speed early and running into the corner on neutral or maintenance throttle worked fine in almost every corner I tried it on. This technique allowed me to setup for the turn, then keep my eyes on the vanishing point. With my eyes up, my mind relaxed and nothing else to do, I was better able to subconsciously calculate my speed, turn point and roll on. By letting my eyes guide me, instead of my technique, I believe I actually rode faster and with less effort. My exit speed was certainly higher.
I believe it is okay, even beneficial, to have a standard technique you use for most turns most of the time. I also see great value in knowing the other methods and being able to use them as necessary.
I hope you have a wonderful ride this weekend!
The only thing I'm going to say here my friend is this. Just because you can roll on the throttle before turning in, doesn't make it correct technique. The reason you can get away with this right now, is becase you're not at a pace where it's entirely critical, (i.e you're on the edge of available grip/traction). If you were, this approach would end up in you having to add more lean angle, whilst on the gas, which would end up in most cases in a crash.
As riders, we often get away with a lot of errors in our technqiue because we're either not at a high enough pace, and therefore there are no consequences for not bothering to do it correct. We must not make the distinction that because we're getting away with it, at some point it might not turn out to be a problem. The throttle rule is one of the very most important rules of motorbiking, and it must never be forgotten, any variation to it is because of another factor which is the error, not the other way around.
Bullet
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Ping, we have a winner. Great post Jason.
Bullet
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If I am already at an appropriate speed for a corner, and I am maintaining that speed as I turn in, is there any reason I need to be OFF the throttle?
For example, two bikers approach a corner. Biker A sets his speed early, he's going 60 mph 20 feet before the turn point and when he reaches his turn point, he maintains a steady throttle and tips it in. Biker B is going 65mph 20 feet before the turn point and is still on the brakes. He manages to reach the turn point at 60 mph and tips in off the throttle and off the brakes.
Clearly biker A has less drama, but does either bike have a handling or safety advantage and why?
If I understand you question correctly then to my understanding of throttle control from level 1, the answer is no. You set your entry speed, go neutral on the throttle, quick turn, and then begin to steadily roll on the throttle maintaining the 40% front to 60% rear weight distribution and keep the suspension in the "sweet spot".
It would appear to me that in your example biker B would have an unsettled suspension and would be loading the front tire and demanding more traction from the front contact patch than is completely necessary.
If I am mis-understanding or mis-representing the lesson on throttle control please correct me. I am not by any means an expert and am posting as much to clarify my understanding as Crash's!
This is true of the way we start to coach students, evolves as you progress and your speed moves on. When you get to level 4, and want to really push on, if you were racing, this approach would be slow and you'd have to ammend it. It works beautifully for riding on the road though.
Bullet
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In this hypothetical example, both motorcycles are going the exact same speed (60 mph) when they are leaned into the corner.
- Rider A has looked ahead and judged that he wants to enter the turn at 60 mph. He is using enough throttle to maintain his speed of 60 mph until, and while, he tips in. (So the throttle is slightly OPEN while he leans the bike, but he's at a safe speed and not ADDING any throttle.)
- Rider B also leans the bike over going 60 mph, but he would be OFF the throttle, decelerating and slightly loading the front tire, while he leans the bike.
- After leaning the bike (getting the bike turned), both riders would then roll on the throttle as per TCR1.
So long as the bike isn't bouncing around on the suspension, I don't think the bike cares if you are ON the throttle of OFF the throttle when you turn, provided you are going the correct speed. Am I wrong? Or am I, perhaps, missing the point and begging for trouble?
On the other hand, I think Rider A would probably be mentally calmer and more relaxed on the bike. Do you agree?
I'll let you walk along with this one for a while, see where you go. Wonder what difference you think the throttle has on suspension/geometry and the effort of turning a bike? Could this be a part of the equation you've not considered I wonder?
Bullet
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the revs rise as you get onto the smaller part of the tyre .
- i should have been able to figure this out for myself - he must be doing a slight roll off b-4 the last right or the revs wouldn,t drop .
I reckon we had a cheeky comfort brake, (just slightly), but we had one for the revs to drop so quickly.
Ya see, you didn't need me at all.
Bullet
On my shiny, newly finished Ducati, that's been lavished with love and the finest suspension I could procure, new triple clamps, and rear linkages. (god it better be good). You might find the move to the Motorsport version an even better jump my friend, rather than the GP Racer? I'll let you know how they go.
Good Evening All From Rain Ridden Glasgow
in School Questions/General Discussion
Posted
hI Diesel,
Nice to have you on here man. A few of us brits about, and as you'll see/find, a really great community from all over the world.
As was mentioned, chime in, tell everyone about yourself.
Bullet