the razor
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Posts posted by the razor
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That is a good explanation and pretty much how I ride - apart from that I tend to keep the front brake on a little until I have control over the corner. If I can see all the way through, I will do most of the slowing pre-corner and accelerate early. If I cannot see, I brake later and deeper, which may seem contradictory but on the road you will often find that what at first seemed like a blind corner wasn't after all.
One must also take into consideration that committing to a corner on the road and the track can never be the same thing, because what can appear stupid fast on the road can be rather slow on a track when you know the condition of the road.
HI EIRIK.
When I approached the corner, my throttle is off but not brake. Then when I decide (see the type of turn) to use the throttle I do it accordingly. Since I ride on the street and sharp turns are always marked with a very visual signs around here . I break a little bit early on the sharp turns so when I get to the corner the brakes are off, in that way my bike it is not upset at front or back, eventhough is not 60/40 but I do not get the kick back of the front brakes when you realese them. For the other type of corners a Just let the throttle off. I am very conciuos on the street about gravel, dead deer, leaves, wet payment. etc. I try to be smooth and not fast. At the track it is different. They are made to be fast. This is the way I approach the road near where I live. By the way a lot of turnig. It is nothing wrong the way you ride. If it works for you and feel confident with it. Stick to it. I am just giving a different type of cornering approach which is not much diffferent than yours, the different is we apply the brakes at different points, I think mine is earlier with a early release before the turning point and yours stay longer up to the turning point. That is why I like this forum, we can express the same cornering techniques with a liitle bit of variations. You feel confident with yours and I feel confident with mine. But the end result is good cornering techniques. By the way I am a street rider. I do not know on the tracks. The time I've been there was for the CSS class.
My regards to you and be safe my friend.
55 AND STAY ALIVE.
The razor.
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You may be correct. You are no doubt much faster and also more skilled than me, what with all your theoretical and practical background. As such, I'm in no position to argue. I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that you can ride faster than me with a greater level of safety because of your skills.
What I do stand by is that a preloaded brake will allow you to stop quicker with less drama, every time.
Other than that, my arguments could probably be ripped apart and proven wrong in every respect. However, from 30 years of experience, I can say that when things have gone wrong, it has either been from lack of attention or going too fast for the conditions. My physical way of handling a motorcycle, my style so to speak, have never caused any sort of drama. The times I've messed up, be that ending up with an accident or narrowly avoiding one, has come from taking silly chances or because I didn't concentrate. The former is reducing with time and age, the latter has virtually been eradicated over the past couple of decades.
Again, I am never going to say what I do is perfect or the best for anybody else. But I am very aware of when I take (unneeded) risks and what they are and fully understand how I need to ride to return safely, cocky as that may sound
I second what stuman said. I am not going to tell anybody how to ride or if he/she should use the breakes while in the corners. One thing I learned at the CCS level 1 is never use the brakes while turning (I try to keep the suspension in the mid range, where the bike is more stable. Approx. 60/40 range). If I have to use the brakes it is very light and for one milisecond. (bad habit for me though). Also in the 2 steps section, I learned not to commit myself until I am sure of the apex and exit. In such blind corners, I do not commit myself until I see the apex and exit, if I am not able to see it then I know it is a blind corner and I approach it as such. I use the throttle with caution and not as aggresive as when I see the apex and exit.. LIke Dylan explained in the class, Look and keep looking until you see it. Since taken that approach I am able to see the corner in a different prospective. Which makes me more aware of the corner and a little bit beyond which includes whatever could be laying down on the road. The 2 steps, picking the line and the throttle control makes my entrances and exit of the corner very smooth. I never commit myself without knowing the turn. Therefore my two steps it is a great tool of my riding skills, which by the way I need to improve. Taken Level II & III When CCS comes to NJ next year (hopefully in May). By the way, I am not disputing anybody's style or way of riding. You ride the way you feel confortable with.
This is my opinion as why CCS made me a better rider. I am a street rider. Do not have trailer to make it to the track. Stuman and Cobie I'll see you in May 2011 at NJMS. Better get ready to teach this old ...., level 2 and 3
Regards.
The Razor.
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OK, we know the throttle stuck (partially?) open and that the crash would not have happened without that. But do you reckon Pedders could have saved it if he had pulled the clutch and stopped? Even if couldn't stop in time, his speed when heading for the gravel trap should have been quite low. Was it SR kicking in? Or are they so close to the limit that when the engine keeps making power unexpectedly, disaster is virtualy inevitable?
For those who haven't seen it, here's a clip onboard (near the end) http://www.youtube.c...player_embedded
Watching those people ride and the way the handle the bike (sliding, wabbling, etc.), the only thing I can consider is he was goning to fast.
At the speed they race, it just takes miliseconds for things to happen. I did not see the entire video so I am just guessing.
But I could be wrong.
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In the UK, there was an interview somewhere, and Stoner was quoted as saying "I rolled off the gas and leaned it more to change the line". . . . Wonder why he crashed?
With respect to staying relaxed at 100%. Well, when you know how it should feel, as soon as you do feel yourself tense up you can resolve it. It's not easy for sure, but it's definitely an improvement. I often find myself when racing in the moment that I do the relax drill mid corner, and voila.
Bullet
Bullet
Thanks for the reply, Bullet. Never heard Stoner's interview - yeah, guess that does make sense
Guess the relaxing thing is part of the mental stamina aspect, huh
Hello Fellows.
I have to second what bullet said. I have been practicing my level 1 skills.
Since I am more concious in relaxing when I make my turns and the way it feels. It is amazing when sometimes I do not and immediately my subconcious let me know and I relax (I think I have one sub.)
It is becoming a habit, when I am tense in a turn , I can detect it immediately.
Put it in another words. I do not feel my front end when I am relaxed. When I feel it is because I am getting tense. I just keep practicing and repeating my self in every turn relax, relax, relax, until it becomes the norm.
Keep it safe
55 AND STAY ALIVE
The razor.
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Just dropping in to let everyone know that school alum and level 4 student Austin DeHaven just won the 2010 AMA Supersport Young Guns Championship this last weekend.
This was Austin's first professional season of competition as he just turned 16yrs old in april.
The first thing Austin said on the podium when asked how he felt about his winning the championship he commented that one of the major things was all the hard work, help and dedication he has received over the last few years from Keith and all staff at the school..
Here are a few pics.. enjoy.
And to Keith, Cobe and all the staff, coaches and everyone at the school this is for you guys..!!!!
Austin DeHaven
2010 AMA PRO SUPERSPORT NATIONAL CHAMPION !!!
Congratulations Job well done. Wishing him success in the years to come.
Just reading the comment I can feel the enthusiasm and happines in your words Eric. Congratulation to you also.
God bless you all.
The razor.
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As for gripping tank under braking, I find it useful and synchronised when I grip a bit crossed up because my arse is a bit off centre, and when I push the handlebar to steer the bike is the exact moment I let go of the tank with my inside knee and stick it out... I find that that timing actually feels really good....
I hope noone tells me this is wrong cuz it feels right!!!
Dazza. Interesting topic. A lot of input and opinions. All good. My question is How about suspension?.
When I bought my CBR1000 I had a liitle bit of problem due to the fact that I had to much sag, Compresion and rebound were set at factory specs. I had them tuned up by Washington Cycle in NJ and made my bike much fun and much better when it becomes to turning. It is like night and day. I am just dropping my opinion in case it has been overlooked. I am not saying it has. But sometimes the way the bike (suspension) reacts when cornering when it is not properly adjusted to one's style of riding, it has side effects sort of speak. I just hope you get your confidence and your technique back on track and get this problem sort out.
Regards.
The razor.
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Ok so the photos of my 'knee down' day are on line. There is a gallery from before my level 3 day and the one after, which shows the changes.
No pictures of my kneedown -
ah well, will have to give the photographer more opportunity next time! To my poorly trained eye I would say the biggest difference is in my body position, it's less 'desperate' looking in the after pictures. The next biggest difference is confidence - I'm happier to relax and go with the bike, which results in more lean angle.....
Congratulation slobdog for your accomplisment. Practice makes perfect my friend.
I do not know if it's all the tracks in UK, But not headlights, rear breake, etc. taped.
Here in the States you have to tape your head lights, tail lights, turn signals, we have to
take the mirrors off. etc. Do you have to disconnect the lights in order to get on the tracks.
Just curious. Keep it up. Regards from the States.
The razor.
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my friends at BMW of Manhattan recommended the school to me last week, i'm an avid rider living in southampton NY, relocating to California this winter. i ride a BMW r 1200 r (naked standard) and love it. i've also participated in the motorgiro d'italia this year riding through the Italian Alps on a Yamaha TDM 900; trip of a lifetime. nothing makes me happier on a bike than the twisties so i'm definitely interested in refining my cornering techniques and becomming more skilled and safe. is the school right for me since i'm not a 'superbike' rider?
thanks!
rebobd. The school is for anybody who wants to improve the riding skills at any level. Being a track person or a street person does not matter.
The key, as it has been mentioned before by the experts, everybody can go fast on the straightaway. The key is entering and getting out of the corners. You will learn the techniques of cornering plus other skills that go along with it. I just took level one in August and I am practicing the terchniques I learned at that level. Planning to take Level 2 and 3 at the beginning of next year (spring time). I am not a track person. I am a street rider. One thing I can tell you because the Level 1 class, I am more concious of what I am doing and why. I feel confident approching, entering and getting out of corners. I know what the do's and don'ts of cornering and the consequences of each one. I know I need more visual skills and better body position , but level one introduced me to the fisrt phase: (two steps) along with throttle control, lines, flipping, etc. and believe me it made me a better rider. Defenitely taken the classes it is a plus. You won't be disapointed. Hope I answered your question.
Regards.
The razor.
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More damping will not prevent the suspension from bottoming under braking, it will only make it take a bit more time and also make the bottoming gentler and smoother (less chance of a rebound). It is the spring that supports the bike. If you have set the static sag correctly with a rider, there is no guarantee that the springs are stiff enough. You could preload the springs enough that the bike hardly settles on its suspension on its own, and then drops the required 1.5 in when you sit on it. That's a clear case that the springs are way too soft. Ideally, the springs should settle almost an inch on its own and then the final .5 in by our weight.
If you do need a stiffer spring but don't want to pay for it, you can upp the oil LEVEL. This will reduce the air gap above the oil, giving the trapped air less room. This will make the interanl pressure rise quicker, and since the air works as a spring, will make the fork stiffer and more progressive. At the most extreme you'll go into hydro-lock before you've used the whole travel.
There are typically two extreme schools when it comes to suspension; those who believe in realtively soft springs and lots of compression damping along with little rebound (BMW back in the old days, for instance, and racer Helmut Dähne who took it to the extreme back in the 70s) and those who believe the bike should rely primarily on springing to support itself with little or no compression damping and lots of rebound to control the stiffish springs. Most bikes sit somewhere in between the two extremes. I prefer the stiff spring/low compression damping setup, but only if you have two or three different spring rates (preferably not progressive springs, but springs with mechanical travel limits for each spring).
Thanks for your input Eirik. For the time being it is O.K. I just have two more month of riding.
Next year (spring time) I will have the oil changed along with the seals and the springs. I will have it set up again for my weight and style of riding.
Interesting comment though which is appreciated.
The razor.
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.The oil will be pretty bad by now I should think, so yes do change it at the start of the season. Before you start on damping, check the spring weight is correct for you (typically the stock springs are good for up to around 200lb rider),and also check the sag (preload) is set right. There are various ways to do this but the simplest check is that it compresses by just over an inch with you sat on it (from fully extended). If this is more or less right then you can start worrying about damping but really unless you brake hard then odds are the spring side (spring weight and preload) needs checking first.
Thanks Johnny Rod.
The sag is the correct one for my weight. But I will double check it any way. Thanks for your input.
I will do the compression and see how it feels. Next year when I change the oil (fork) I will have it set up again.
Thanks again.
The Razor.
I just did an extra 1/2 turn out and it worked nicely. Thank you guys for your tips.
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Patrick, this is the kind of stuff coaches love to read! Your control over your bike is increased which gives you that confidence, you can ride for longer - easier, the wind doesn't effect your bike as it did before, these are MASSIVE improvements in riding and the cool thing to note is it's not just due to the work from Keith and his team, but it comes down to you applying the technology, well done buddy!
So, what new technology from the DVD is in your plan for your next ride?
Hi
Jason I was really suprised by understanding some tech stuff is really important to help you understand your bike for riding.
I will try to go to Stanwell Tops every week until Track Day on 3 Oct at the Creek.
I will go out for a ride this weekend and try to reinforce what was outlined in the DVD and iron out any bad habbits and see if that confidence is still there or increased.
I am reading the Twist OF The Wrist II Book now.
I am going to use the book information for my Track day to get the most out of the day.
Anyway Jason take care dude
Patrick
Congratulation Patrick for your improvement.
My advise to you is when you get a chance to take the classes at CSS, do not hesitate.
As you noted your owm improvement, you will be astonished of how much more you can improve. You are going to be surrounded by coaches that are mastered of the techniques of riding in general. As you can see I did not mention cornering but I used riding in general. They can notice and correct the minimum weakness you have in your riding abilities from head, body posistion to if you are stiff, etc, etc. I say that because I took level one and I stiffened out in one of the corners and for a few mili-seconds and the coach (Pete) immmediately noticed it and brought it to my attention. It was mind blowing to me of how he noticed it. He also corrected other parts of my riding that I needed improvewment. By the way, that is just an example of the things they can see and can have you improve besides the technique they teach. I am just explanning my own experiences with the CSS. I am saving my pennies to take Level 2 and 3 back to back. Good luck to you and keep practicing. Do not forget 55 and stay alive.
The Razor
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.The oil will be pretty bad by now I should think, so yes do change it at the start of the season. Before you start on damping, check the spring weight is correct for you (typically the stock springs are good for up to around 200lb rider),and also check the sag (preload) is set right. There are various ways to do this but the simplest check is that it compresses by just over an inch with you sat on it (from fully extended). If this is more or less right then you can start worrying about damping but really unless you brake hard then odds are the spring side (spring weight and preload) needs checking first.
Thanks Johnny Rod.
The sag is the correct one for my weight. But I will double check it any way. Thanks for your input.
I will do the compression and see how it feels. Next year when I change the oil (fork) I will have it set up again.
Thanks again.
The Razor.
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Thank you guys for your input. The setting is, if I am not mistaken, 1 3/4 turn out for compresion and 1 for rebound. It just happens when I break hard and after a few miles. I do most of my riding on the street. The forks are not leaking. (seal); But I think the setting was for turning fast. (track).I am going to do 1/4 of a turn out for compresion and see how it works. I have 6000 miles on it. I will let you know how it feels when I go riding this weekend. Also my riding improved (a bit faster) since I took level one in August.
Much better on the corners. Thanks again Kai and ozfireblade (Dylan). Any other comment will be appreciate.
I will keep you posted. I will have the oil change next year since I have maybe 2 more month of riding and then I will store it. The razor.
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I have an 07 CBR1000RR. I had the suspension tuned up on may of this year, but I noticed that my front suspension is bottoming out on me. Started happening like a month ago. I do not want to take it to the place that did the tune up. I just want to see if one of the readers can give me a hint of why it is happening and what should I do. Should I let up the compression and how much. Also, what effect will it have on my front suspension. Thanks to you for your input. By the way, I bought the bike new with 0 miles out of the dealer. as a matter of fact I picked it out of the Box. November will be a year old.
55 and stay alive.
The razor.
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There are different areas/techniques on body position and are covered in level 3. However, I have asked coach to demonstrate the proper way of one-leg anchoring the bike during level 2, and get something to work on before the level 3. If you have any question related to other levels, I bet you will get an answer as soon as you ask. Cobie has answered and demonstrated my questions on clutchless up or down shifting even they are not in the syllabus.
Thanks 636rider. I will make sure to ask. Although I will be taken 2 and 3 back to back.
Thanks again.
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May he rest in peace! ...and i know he will...
Very sad news, a star in the making for sure, and one who's been very close to the school for many years. Thoughts to his family and friends.
Bullet
God bless his soul and welcome him into heaven. My sincere condolence to his family.
The razor.
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Level 2 is visual as far as cornering goes. 3 steps, different entry points a so on. By the way, I have not taken it yet. My conclusion is based on what I have read from the level description. My question to the ones who has taken it. Do they introduce body position in level 2 or is it only in level 3?. Today, I posted the same question to Kevin Kane. Unfortunatelly I reply to his message at least a week late. Busy finishing the honey do list and not time to check the forum.
Thanks for the input.
The razor.
Razor,
Level 2 is on the visuals - "smooth flow of information in through the eyes" was Andy's mantra for the L2 day.
I'm sure that your on-track coach will grab you if you do something really silly with your body positioning, but otherwise it's left to Level 3.
Kai
Thank you kai for your input.
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Level 2 is visual as far as cornering goes. 3 steps, different entry points a so on. By the way, I have not taken it yet. My conclusion is based on what I have read from the level description. My question to the ones who has taken it. Do they introduce body position in level 2 or is it only in level 3?. Today, I posted the same question to Kevin Kane. Unfortunatelly I reply to his message at least a week late. Busy finishing the honey do list and not time to check the forum.
Thanks for the input.
The razor.
TR;
Since I am not a CSS Team member I will give you what my experience has been but you need to be aware of that caveat. That said, Level II is as you say, primarily focused on visual drills and Level III is geared toward body position.
Despite taking numerous Level IV courses since I first did the cycle back in 2001-02, I retook all four Levels in 2009 and this refresher was eye-opening for me. I had forgotten how much of the detail is taught in the first three levels and it allowed me to attack some personal barriers that I couldn't get through on my own. What I had lost touch with the most was the visual training offered in Level II as I had let old bad habits seep back into my riding consciousness and they acted as a real deterrent to progress. Then Level III reminded me of how much I had conveniently "forgotten" about proper body position so for me, going back to redo the first three levels was time and money well spent.
Anyway, that's my story Razor and I'm stickin' to it!
Rainman
Thanks Rainman.
You advise is well taken and I appreciate your input.
Definetely, next year I will look for you the first time CSS comes to thunderbolt.
Hope we get to meet personally.
Regards
the razor.
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Level 2 is visual as far as cornering goes. 3 steps, different entry points a so on. By the way, I have not taken it yet. My conclusion is based on what I have read from the level description. My question to the ones who has taken it. Do they introduce body position in level 2 or is it only in level 3?. Today, I posted the same question to Kevin Kane. Unfortunatelly I reply to his message at least a week late. Busy finishing the honey do list and not time to check the forum.
Thanks for the input.
The razor.
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Level 2 is visual as far as cornering goes. 3 steps, different entry points a so on. By the way, I have not taken it yet. My conclusion is based on what I have read from the level description. My question to the ones who has taken it. Do they introduce body position in level 2 or is it only in level 3?. Today, I posted the same question to Kevin Kane. Unfortunatelly I reply to his message at least a week late. Busy finishing the honey do list and not time to check the forum.
Thanks for the input.
The razor.
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How much more can you learn through the CSS programme…..loads is the answer. I have just completed Level 4 at Silverstone and I'm amazed at how much more I was able to improve.
The day started off with an individual programme assessment, identifying areas that needed help, then drills to target those specific areas. Each rider has their own agenda for which areas they want to improve upon, but as with most things in riding, we all seem to struggle with the usual suspects, VISION and LINE. As the sessions progressed, the on-track coach (Bullet) and Level 4 liaison coach (Badger) began to really focus in on the problems we were having and getting them corrected. For me especially, being a paraplegic added another dimension for the guys to think about, as I'm unable to move about the bike. We tried a number of different ways to help me keep the bike steady whist braking and going into the corners, some worked well whilst others were canned. The overall result was that on the final session I was riding faster, smoother, on the right line and loving every second. Well, that was up to the point where my right foot came out of the stirrup and started dragging behind me. I had to stop as I didn't know how long it was going to take for the toe of the boot to wear out and then start grinding down my foot. There weren't any marshals around, no Bullet, no barricades, no grass, so I spied the large gravel trap, decided it was the best place to stop and fall over into and made my way slowly over. It's a weird feeling knowing you are about to fall over and it could hurt, but I knew it was preferable to losing my toes, as although I can't feel them I quite like them being there! The gravel proved to be quite soft, but the bike was trapping me underneath it and the exhaust burnt through the boot and has left a large burn on my foot, at least it's still there. Very quickly the coaches were around me, the bike lifted off, the medical services arrived and I was soon back in the pits and looking at the bike, which escaped with nothing more than a few pebble scratches. Looks like the Velcro came un-glued from the base of the boot and as I am now leaning on my knees to lock me in for turning, the pressure must have pushed them off.
All in all a great day, everyone at CSS made me feel so welcomed and at ease. It made for a great learning environment and I can't wait to come back to repeat Level 4 time and time again, as I know I can never stop learning and improving.
My time spent with CSS has helped me to gain my ACU licence and I hope to complete my first race on 4th September. I just have to get my stabilizer unit approved by the ACU and we're good to go. Once again, my thanks go to all at CSS.
Talan, after reading your experience on your level 4 class. I just have to tell you "GOD BLESS YOU".
You showed the will and determination with the end result of your accomplishment. Something to be proud of.
it gives me encouragment to continue learning and taking the rest of the levels with CSS. My regards to you with all the respect you deserve. Keep it going and again God Bless you.
The razor
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"The second time I did back to back days I ate it up! I was ready and on the second day I didn't have to reacclimate to being on a track, I didn't have to reacclimate to being on that particular track nor the bike or anything beyond the new drills so I was able to integrate the two days with my previous training in a big big way."
Kevin
I agree with Kevin. I did level two and three back to back and I would have to say it worked for me. The level three class just put everything together and made a huge impact on my riding.
Thanks fossilfuel.
After reading your input and Rainman's,
I will take leve2 and 3 back to back. Also, I will take Reinman's advise of preparing myself (physically and mentally) for the 2 days.
Thank you guys.
be safe and 55 stay alive.
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To the students who have taken both levels, I will appreciate the input.
I am planning to take level 2 and level 3. I need help in deciding if I should take level 2 and 3 at the same time (consecutive days) or should I take level 2 and then later on level 3.
Thank you
55 stay alive.
Razor;
I have done it both ways; the first time I did back to back days I was unprepared for the cumulative demands it would place on me physically and mentally so the second day was not as productive. The second time I did back to back days I ate it up! I was ready and on the second day I didn't have to reacclimate to being on a track, I didn't have to reacclimate to being on that particular track nor the bike or anything beyond the new drills so I was able to integrate the two days with my previous training in a big big way.
Rainman
Thanks Rainman for your input.
I am going to give a little bit of thought as to what you said. I will wait for other students input also. I have to consider the two days on the track and whatever comes with it. Originally, I was planning to take level2 and then later on level3. I just have to wait to see first if it is worthy and 2nd. if I can survive the 2 days at the track. I took level 1 and physically I was O.K. I do not know how demanding level2 is. But I will keep your input in mind. If I decide to take the 2 days I will make sure I prepare myself physically and mentally. Thanks again for your input which is well taken.
The razor
55 stay alive.
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To the students who have taken both levels, I will appreciate the input.
I am planning to take level 2 and level 3. I need help in deciding if I should take level 2 and 3 at the same time (consecutive days) or should I take level 2 and then later on level 3.
Thank you
55 stay alive.
Uh-Oh!
in Cornering and Techniques
Posted
As you mentioned. You went for a ride and took it easy. It seems for your words that was very enjoyable.
The way I ride is I go to a speed that I can control on the turns. No reckles and not slow but a speed that in case I find myself on one of those turns that sometimes sorprises you I can handle it. when I am comming to the turn I let the throttle off if it is a sharp turn, I turn and immediately start rolling on the throttle. the turn dictates how hard or soft I do the throttle. On the soft turns (sort of speak) I tone down the throttle, make the turn and continue with the roll on. I try to pase myself so I have to use the minimum amount of brake. It does not mean I do not use them, but I try to minimize it. That came from level 1 when you have to go on 4th. gear through the entire track without using the brakes. Applying that technique has built my confidence on the street, my speed has increase when cornering, I feel more confortable when I go a liitle bit harder on the corners because I know I can handle the speed. But I do not go reckless or careless. I know that I am on the street and a lot of things has to be consider, such as other vehicles, debries on the road etc. If I were you I will keep doing what you just did and I am pretty sure you are going to be more confident and you will be amazed of how your speed and technique are going to be improved . Remember everybody on the straights can go fast, but on the turns you got to be smooth.
LIke the sayng goes. Smooth is fast. As far as the sparks that tells me you are leaning too much. The more you lean the slower you go. My two cents my friend and keep it safe.
You should take the CCS classes and if you did go over Level 1 techniques.
My regards to you
The razor.