rchase
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Posts posted by rchase
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I only have one camera angle and quite honestly it happens all over that long corner. Let me explain a bit more and perhaps you can see it in the video yourself.
I make my steering input. The bike starts the turn but because of the slower speed the bike starts it's way towards the apex earlier than intended. I speed my roll on and the bike stays where it is. If you added even more power you could bring the bike to the outer edge of the track. In corners like this it seems you can actually steer the bike with the throttle.
If you watch you will see lots of mid corner corrections. On my exit lap as well. You will notice me speeding up. It was not because I really wanted to go faster. It was so I would be closer to the outer edge close to the exit.
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I'm sure that a better roll on would make some improvements.
To be 100% honest a lot of the stability issues probably come from me being concerned plus annoyed with myself as well as being stiff and rigid. I occasionally have to pull over into hot pit on that track just to rest for a moment. AMP makes Barber seem easy in comparison. At Barber many of the turns are spaced out far enough where if you mess one up it costs you time but overall does not really cause issues. At AMP many of the corners are "linked". End up in the wrong place and you will end up off the pavement in the next corner. It's narrow and unforgiving for line errors.
The other thing that bothers me a lot about that corner is the transition onto the straight. There's a lot of cornering forces I don't yet understand up there. The guy that sailed past me on the last lap of my video was also working on that corner and managed to run off the track because of the cornering forces in the transition.
Here's a diagram of the track with the "car line" which is completely different than the line we use for bikes. For kicks I might try the car line sometime at a slower speed through that corner and see if that changes things for me.
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I do have a plan to try and resolve these issues.
1. I am going to work on finding more reference points in the turns. That will only help.
2. The unstable feeling I'm just going to have to deal with. I have some body position issues that need resolving and this may help a bit with the stability in the corners.
3. I'm going to go back to my 2014 bike for a bit. Heavier wheels, less power and stock suspension will make my problems much worse. Perhaps by immersing myself in the problem I might find a better solution or at least be able to adapt over time.
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It's really interesting. Tracks I know really well such as Barber which had CSS turn points X's I don't have a lot of trouble with even with the X's removed. I remember where they were and I'm very confident there. Tracks which I have had to learn by following someone else I don't have this same level of confidence obviously because of a lack of concrete reference points in my mind. Add in the long turns and the confidence level goes out the window.
I think my problem is slightly more complicated than just reference points. In the long corner in the video leaned over to the left hand side I obsess over RPM's even though I have plenty available. Even with a GP shifter the action of moving my foot to get to the shifter makes the bike destabilize and wiggle. The cornering forces and the bike's unstable feeling and the way the bike will "move" on it's line based on the throttle input all gang up on me to absolutely destroy my confidence.
I have made some progress in that big long left hand turn. I found being slightly more generous with the throttle keeps me in the middle where I want to be until I'm ready to turn into the apex. I could easily make that corner a lot shorter with even more throttle but the concern that I have is understanding how the bike will react. At 100mph+ (that's about the speed of that corner) there's a lot that can go wrong especially if you suddenly panic.
Here's a lap of the same track with two gentlemen that obviously have this all sorted out. The guy in front is my mechanic who's one amazing rider.
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Thanks for the responses. Lots of information here to digest and to think about. I will be the first to admit I could probably have more reference points. Some corners "talk to me" while others don't. The ones that don't of course are long corners where I'm visually lost.
I did not realize this until you posted the photo and looked back at the video but the long corner that's the 3rd one in that 3 corner complex is also making me back off of the gas. That's actually a fun set of turns for me. You have to get up the hill out of the hairpin with lots of momentum. A dab of brakes and then it's all momentum up the hill. Until of course I get to the top and run out of reference points and don't really want to go near the throttle until I can see my exit again.
I tend to gravitate towards curbing and corner shapes as reference points. I think I'm going to need to expand on that toolkit a bit more as the long corners that give me the most trouble tend to be devoid of shape and curbing.
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The key is what is used to initiate the turns. It's always a bar input. Hanging off can assist the bike in turning by shifting the weight off of the center line of the bike and giving the bike more turning capabilities with less lean angle used.
In the wet using less lean angle is a good thing!
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Flipping the shock eccentric will raise the bike considerably. I'm tall and it's downright awkward riding my well setup S1000RR. It's worth it though. When the bike is underway it's a non issue.
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Have you considered changing the springs in the front? It's worth exploring different options there.
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Hotfoot. Thanks in advance for the help.
The hairpin at Barber.
Coming in down the hill on the brakes I'm already in position. Wideview mode on. I look briefly at my turn point (the edge of the curbing) for a moment and then at the same time observe the apex of the corner. As I come closer in my view goes to the apex and keeping the turn point in my peripheral. I reach the turn point and look at the apex and turn. View change at this point to keep the apex and the exit in view. Once at the apex I quicken my throttle roll on and close to the apex once I know I'm almost clear of the corner I pin the throttle.
That's a quick and sharp corner. Longer corners don't seem to have many of the elements well defined. You also can't see many of the elements at the same time. At the track I have the most trouble with the apexes of the corner are completely invisible at the turn point.
The closest thing to one of those at Barber is Turn 2 which also gave me troubles until I got some visual reference points. Turn 2 however is nothing in comparison to some of the evil long turns I have seen.
In fact. With the risk of embarrassing myself. Here's a video. Please be nice. Try and see which corner I'm completely lost in.
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Don't think I could get away with spray paint. Small removable X's might be the best bet. At that I'll likely have to ask really nicely.
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That's interesting actually.
I made some progress the last time I was there by splitting the corners into multiple parts. Several of the turns on the track map are listed as one corner but someone pointed out to me that several of the more difficult ones are actually two turns. By thinking of them in this manner I suppose I started picking reference points for each of them and that made them less intimidating.
It does not really help that this track has very little in the way of reference points. Just lots of grass. I might actually see if I can talk some people into getting out the tape and doing CSS style X's on the surface for reference points.
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Thanks for some of that additional insight.
Other things that really get to me in longer corners is how often I'm forced to violate some of the "steering rules" making several mid corner corrections based on where the bike ends up because of the cornering forces. Rather than going wide often times I find myself being sucked in closer to the apex. Sometimes I can correct with the throttle but often times I have to make a steering correction to keep from running over the curbing.
There's one corner at Atlanta Motorsports Park that's literally my nightmare corner. I made a bit of progress there discovering I could steer with the throttle but I'm still baffled by long sweeping corners.
Logically one could turn a long sweeping corner into a much shorter corner by just using the throttle too but without a real understanding that could cause issues as well that I'm not really wanting to deal with.
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For a while now I have realized that I don't like long sweeping corners. I'm trying to understand some of the reasoning behind that.
Short super tight corners I have absolutely no issues getting close to maximum lean and even occasionally scraping my knee pucks. Exits out of them are no problem for me with brutal drive out.
Long corners on the other hand really get to me. I don't enter as fast as I can, I tend to obsess over the throttle and drive out absolutely sucks especially when there's another long corner waiting for me next.
Part of this I think is due to turn points and how absolutely clear cut short corners tend to be on entry and exit. Long corners on the other hand have a lot more options and entry and exit is often not as well defined. Logically long corners are easier and more forgiving.
Any insight is helpful. One of my most frequently visited tracks of course is all long sweeping corners and of course is mostly right hand turns which I also have issues with vs left hand turns. At least I understand the reasoning behind the preference there.
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Some great points there Tyler.
That actually reminds me of a conundrum that I recently had to deal with.
One of my bikes is a rather "wayward" RR with gobs of power and a BMW Race ECU. The bike honestly intimidated me a bit when I first owned it because of the way it made power and it's propensity to wheelie.
I needed to put new tires on the bike as the slicks it was delivered with were pretty shot. I intended to use the bike primarily at the track and considered doing slicks for that little extra amount of grip and in my mind protection because of the power. I talked to my tire guy who rides with us on the track and he had some interesting insight. My riding style is pretty random. At times I ride fast at other times I loaf around the track. I also ride well into the colder months. His concern was that on a cooler day straight off the warmers I might be in a loaf around mood and the tires might cool considerably without me thinking about it. Then my mood might change towards the end of a session putting me in a dangerous situation on cold slicks. The track we ride at adds to the danger. Most of the turns are Right hand turns with only two left hand turns. There's a super fast straight and on cold days it REALLY cools you and the tires off. Riders often get taken out by the first left hand turn after the straight because of the cooling factor.
If you decide to use slicks make sure they are hot but also make sure you will always keep them hot. When they begin to loose grip there's usually no warning at all and often times DTC won't be able to save you. See that word of wisdom about traction above.
Because of my random style and cold riding I'll likely always ride on street tires despite religiously using tire warmers for an extra margin of safety and confidence. I'll gladly give up the extra grip for a tire that's more consistent with it's grip when it comes to heating and cooling.
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Before you write off "street tires" completely. Here's something to consider. This is Nate Kern Riding his 2013 HP4 at Roebling Road in 48degree weather on Supercosa SP's. The people he's passing are all Advanced Group riders. I don't think street tires are slowing Nate down too much.
Say, what is that flashing orange light on the left side of the Odo - would it happen to be the traction control kicking in?
Sorta. The indicator light is a bit more complex than that. The bike an HP4 with the HP Race ECU. The Race ECU reports with the orange light a lot sooner than the standard ECU does. I don't ride anywhere close to Nate's pace and occasionally my light flashes on my Race ECU equipped bike. That's the bike telling the rider that the bike is over the target lean angle for the mode and that DTC is now getting involved to manage the torque. This could be a very minor management or a large management but it's saying "hey you probably want to be careful now" to the rider. The bike does this well before the tires get beyond the target slip rate. When the tires do get beyond that target slip rate then the full blown "traction control" gets involved.
While I have no doubts at all Nate was probably doing a bit of slipping and sliding out there the light alone is not really a good indicator of where it was happening. That's where the HP datalogger becomes SUPER useful. You can see exactly how DTC is interacting at any given moment. You can see slip rate, rider requested throttle%, DTC intervention, lean angle and actual throttle% the bike provided. It's an amazing insight where you get to "see" DTC doing it's magic to keep us all upright.
One word of wisdom from the guy riding in 48 degree weather like a crazy man. "DTC lets you manage traction you have. It can't create traction you don't have"
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Those are all quite valid points and there's really no right or wrong answer here.
I run Pirelli Supercorsa SP's on tire warmers. I have done the same on Dunlop Q3's. This helps with an accurate hot pressure but also eliminates warm up time. I ride some pretty casual track days where there's plenty of time to warm up the tires so many would say running warmers is not needed. For me it helps a lot completely eliminating any consideration of tires at any time. If I want to enter the track and head full speed into the first corner I can. Tires and the associated complexities don't "rent space in my head" while I'm out riding and that gives me more confidence.
Before you write off "street tires" completely. Here's something to consider. This is Nate Kern Riding his 2013 HP4 at Roebling Road in 48degree weather on Supercosa SP's. The people he's passing are all Advanced Group riders. I don't think street tires are slowing Nate down too much.
Possibly the most important thing you can do is run tires that YOU are comfortable with. This eliminates doubt and gives you confidence. In some cases our doubt slows us down more than the lack of grip available.
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Welcome Vasillis!
Lots of great information in the forum. If you have questions or want some honest feedback this is a great place. Thanks for saying hello!
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That's a simple question that's also amazingly complex at the same time.
That really would depend on the type of riding someone was planning to do and if the Q3 was suitable for that purpose vs the other options available.
I would always want to go with a new tire for my purposes (track days). Just so I know the history, heat cycles and other associated information (such as how it ended up as a take off). This would be my choice and is probably not the best choice for everyone.
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I was not aware of that actually. There's nothing inherently wrong with take off tires. If you know their history, age and heat cycles it's just like any other set of tires that are no longer new. The amount of grip they have of course will depend on all of those factors.
Tire choice of course depends on a number of factors as well. Even though my bikes aren't ever really going fast enough to get near the limits of tire wear and life new tires really help me. Knowing for an absolute fact that I have done every possible thing I can to ensure my bike has the best possible operating conditions takes tires off of my mind. It's one of the reason I run warmers. By eliminating the consideration of tires all together 100% of my attention is focused on the riding. I'm much the same way with mechanical stuff too. My bikes arrive in 100% as perfect as possible condition. When there's an issue I don't do repairs at the track. I take the 2nd bike. I don't want to be thinking "did I tighten all those bolts" while trying to navigate a hairpin.
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Yes they do.
Years ago I had the experience of riding on old tires at the track. I had a bike that the tires had been replaced by the previous owner. They looked brand new but every time I got near the throttle the rear end stepped out. Needless to say it was distressing. The next session I replaced the tires on the bike.
I'm particularly anal about my tires because of this experience. I replace them once a season regardless if they need it or not. I only work with good tire dealers who don't try to sell me "older" date codes. If you do a google search you can find resources on how to read a motorcycle tire date code.
Over time the solvents and oils that make rubber pliable leave the tire material. When these materials are no longer present the tire gets hard and has substantially less grip. The amount of time it takes varies from tire to tire and varies depending on the way the tire was used.
Often times you will see "race take off" tires that have wear but have a lot of life left in them. There's a reason racers replace their tires like that. They want the maximum grip and don't want any surprises. Often times they will run brand new tires for races just for the peace of mind and that little extra bit of grip that could give them the edge to be the one on the podium.
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Certainly sounds great. Only 334hp though? With the inline 4's pushing over 200hp these days you would think they could have gotten more out of a second bank of cylinders. Then again imagine the thermal problems they have and the weight.
V8's aren't new though. Morbidelli made a V8 touring bike that was the most expensive bike in the world for a while. They have one at the Barber Museum on display and it's quite interesting to look at from a sheer engineering perspective.
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From what I understand the key is for the RCK3. The race ECU itself has to be installed by the BMW dealer and is VIN coded to the bike. The Key unlocks the RCK3 functionality inside the ECU. Without the unlock key you don't have the ability to change the values with the RCK3 software. You still get all of the race ECU base data.
Something that's worth keeping in mind. On the Race ECU it's really important to work with an authorized HP parts dealer that's an actual BMW dealership. There are companies out there that are selling Race ECU's and Unlock keys with varying degrees of success. There's more than a few not very happy customers of the 3rd party suppliers. I won't name names but these companies are pretty well known in the BMW forums.
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Without seeing the tire it's difficult to say what going on with it. We have resident tire reading experts on the forum that would be glad "read" the tire wear if you post a photo.
When it comes to tire pressure it's often better to error on the side of lower pressure than higher pressure. The tire wear that you often see can be concerning but in most cases there's no loss of grip unless the tire is starting to turn blue or get greasy. The blue color and the greasiness is the tire overheating and releasing the oils that make it resilient. If you see bluing or a greasy tire talk to your tire guy ASAP.
It's always a trade off of course. Lower pressure there's the risk of overheating and excessive sidewall deformation but higher pressure there's a smaller contact patch and the tires don't heat up as much. Seeing and feeling the issues with lower pressure is more predictable than higher pressures where there's just a sudden loss of grip. It's also important to keep in mind that as a tire heats up it "grows" in pressure. The school sets a base line pressure that you set and forget for the whole day. When I take my bike to the track I set a hot pressure and adjust it every session and have to keep the bike on warmers. It's a different approach that allows the student to focus on the learning rather than their tires. In fact this is an object lesson I learned this year myself at the school. Running back and forth from the classroom to the track it was a huge effort to put my bike on warmers every session on a school day schedule. It got even more complicated with some rain showers and electrical cords. It's not so bad on a track day where you have a lot more time.
Q3's are an amazing tire. I had a set on my BMW and got an entire season of track riding on the set. I eventually switched to another brand of tires but I do miss the amazing longevity that the Q3's offered. Interestingly enough with the advice of a more experienced rider I dropped the pressure on my Q3's below 30 PSI and got some pretty amazing grip without overheating them or wearing them out prematurely.
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Road pressures are too high for track use. I even use very close to track pressures on the street for my bikes.
Think of it this way. What's worth more to you? A little bit of extra tire life or more traction that might prevent an accident that could injure you and destroy the bike. Tires are disposable people and bikes not so much.
The school is super flexible on pressures if they are comfortable with your reasoning. I ran tire warmers this year on my bike and requested that they set the pressure "super high" so that I could bleed out air to set the hot pressure. They did ask what hot pressure I planned on using and gave me some advice based on track conditions which was super helpful.
So... I was wondering... Any chance of that tire pressure card getting released as a PDF with the school's logo on it? Might be quite useful for helping the school with advertising and for people like myself who deal with a lot of never been on the track Novice riders helping them get a "safe" track pressure. I would be glad to help out with getting the card presentable. I do however understand if the answer is no. Legal liability and the effort put into research and such.
Help Me Understand
in Cornering and Techniques
Posted
Most likely I am. I think the big problem is I want a very consistent turning result without enough data built up in my mind on how the bike reacts at given speeds. When I get something different than I expected it's disconcerting and SR's slow my roll on and start making steering corrections. The annoying part is I know exactly how to react in these situations with throttle and body position changes.
One of the last track days of the season is coming up this November. I'm going to work on locating more reference points and some of the other suggestions here. I probably won't completely resolve everything but I certainly will try.