rchase
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Posts posted by rchase
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My preferences are Held's and Knox Handroids. These days I'm riding mostly in Held's that are BMW branded. The Handroids are really nice but when they get some sweat in them they tend to be a bit more of a challenge to put on and take off between sessions. The Held gloves don't tend to have this issue.
Handroids and Helds are very different construction. The Helds are much heavier construction with memory foam with Stingray and Kangaroo leather in the palms and a softer cowhide on top. The Handroids use Kangaroo and plastic palm sliders with their really cool looking plastic top protection system. The big problem with the Handroids is they are unlined and when the sweat from your hands gets into the glove they become a bit more of a challenge to put on and remove.
Possibly the best information you can get is from Sportbike Trackgear's website. Brian Van does a lot of in depth videos on the features of all the gear that they sell and that can really give you a lot of insight into the features that are most important to you. There's no defacto "best" of anything. Every product has it's strong points and weak points.
The best approach is to buy based on the strong points and use the gear where it's suited best. Despite the Handroid's "problem" with sweatyness there are conditions where I go to them first rather than my Helds.
P.S. Even if you don't ride a BMW check out the BMW line of DoubleR gloves. They are Held gloves at a good discount off the full Held price. Right now Last season's Double R gloves are selling on Ebay for about $250 a pair. Quite the bargain.
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I'll see what I can do. My tow vehicle gets about 7mpg and is British so driving that distance is a bit impractical. Might see if I can tag along. Assuming my bike is finished by then. Doing a bit of late season work on it and parts may arrive at the last minute.
For people who have not been to a Double R fest they are really awesome events. Here's a video for the 2014 Double R fest. Each one is unique so I have no idea what's planned for this one. Even if it's just N8 it's worth going.
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I have to admit the same not so great results with Lexol. Full disclosure though my leathers only see water when I'm riding in the rain. Might have to get brave and try that sometime. It just seems WRONG to dunk a 2K suit in water.
I used Leatherique conditioner on a few of my suits but it's more suited to automotive applications. I tried Pecards through advice here in this thread and that's some AMAZING stuff.
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On the experimenting and observing thing. Some REALLY important stuff there. Several years ago at the school one of the coaches allowed me to make a really bad plan for a corner. He was confident I could sort it out and wanted me to see why it was a bad plan. Only after riding the poor plan did I realize why I don't want to be on that part of the track. It was valuable learning. That of course is more difficult to do on the street with the unpredictable nature of oncoming traffic.
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I can only imagine the creative fun you guys have during downtime.....
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P.S. Did not mean to make Cobie sound old. Most of the coaches have been coaching longer than I have been riding.
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Cobie is absolutely right about bar input causing wiggle. Of course he would be because he's the head coach and has been helping Keith with the school for longer than I have ever been riding a motorcycle.
Input can be caused by the movement or could be caused by the tension of the rider. I had this demonstrated to me in a very interesting way. I bought a bike that was more powerful than the one that I had been riding. I was noticing a huge amount of head shake and slowly adapted to it. Eventually the head shake went away over time. The head shake was caused by the slightly terrified rider who was intimidated by the bike. Once I relaxed and was no longer intimidated the bike stopped shaking it's head.
I'm sure you will get things sorted soon. One of the other things in Keith's books that's amazing is riding and observing at the same time. Riding slightly slower and observing and thinking about what you are doing gives you a starting point to fine tune your technique. You know what you can change. It sounds like you are doing this a bit already with the questions you are asking.
Eventually you should consider coming to the school. Some of the most amazing improvements I have made with my riding have come from observations that coaches have made of my riding. Those innocent sounding questions the coaches ask can spark amazing things.
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All tires have a really strong point. I find that Dunlops make a bike super easy to turn and give a lot of confidence because of that aspect. The Pirelli's are more progressive with their turning and that takes a bit of getting used to at first coming off of the Dunlops. One MAJOR strong point on the Dunlops is their wear. When I first got my RR I had it delivered with a set of Dunlop Q3's that endured a whole year of abuse on the track and refused to die. The Pirelli's don't have the wear ability that the Dunlops do. I killed a set of Supercorsa SP's before the end of the season that were heat cycled out.
Metzler tires are made by Pirelli and are standard equipment on the RR when it's delivered new. From what I understand the Metzler is a Pirelli compound with a different tread design and branding. The HP4 was delivered with Pirelli's as standard equipment and the DTC system for the entire Double R platform was tuned on Pirelli tires. That's the big selling point for me with one of bikes having DTC tuned towards the bleeding edge of traction.
On the budget thing. Don't get the wrong idea I'm not made of money either and probably would not really enjoy my time with my tire guy visiting him every track day for tires (even though we are good friends).
On the SC0. Any tire can become extremely expensive and a bad choice when you use it outside of what it was intended for. Here's a snippet on the SC0.
"SC0: The rear SC0 compound is best in higher temperatures and on less abrasive surfaces. It is highly effective for spring racing and in turning very quick qualifying laps. Durability of the SC0 rear will not be ideal in colder temperatures or on more abrasive surfaces over numerous laps. Track temperatures should range from 25°C/ 77°F and up."
Here's a snippet on the SC2 that my bike's equipped with now. I'm actually glad I looked this up as I have never put my tires back on warmers and had them lower than 70 degrees even after sitting for a bit. My warmers will show their initial temp as ambient if you don't stick them on a warm tire.
"SC2: The SC2 compound has a wider operating temperature range compared to the SC0 and SC1. The newest SC2 can be used at temperatures as low as 8°C/47°F and up to 55°C/122°F. The SC2 is a very good choice for club racers, longer sprint races, and endurance racing where tires changes are planned."
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The most stable place you can do the hip flick is while still on the gas. Setup as early as you can even if it seems a bit ridiculous (I have a corner that I go through where I'm setup on the wrong side of the bike as the corner does not require hang off and I'm getting in position early for the next one that needs all the body position I can give it) . As well don't make the mistake of moving back to center as it just wastes energy. You can ride down the straight without being in the center of the bike with no problems at all. Watch the pro's sometime and see where they setup for corners.
You aren't alone with problems with getting into position. Sometimes certain bikes aren't a good ergonomic fit for certain riders. I have (soon to be had) a Yamaha FZR400. I'm not only too big for such a little bike but it's very "old school" in it's ergonomics. The fiberglass tank cover gives me little to grip on and it's awkward at best to use any kind of aggressive body position with. Supersport designs give us places to rest our arms and body on the fuel tank and seats designed so we can get down low easy. There are ways of improving the ergonomics with adjustments of rearsets, levers, seats and tank grips. I took the easy way out and got a Supersport. Even then I have tweaked the ergonomics so they work better for my riding. I have rearsets and a race seat on my track bike to make it easier to ride.
One thing to keep in mind is that your riding style will be an always evolving thing. Even legends like Valentino Rossi has changed his style a bit over time. The most important thing is not to look at things as if you are doing them wrong. Look at what you are doing right and improve the things you can do better on. You will eventually exceed your wildest expectations over time. I know I certainly have. Stay positive!
It's somewhat interesting that the school does not teach "trailbraking" as it's described by many. They actually do however when it's appropriate. My style for the longest time was to over brake on the entry of many corners and then get on the gas as soon as possible. This past Level 4 at the school they taught me the "brake release drill". For all intents and purposes its trail braking with a different name. With any technique there's a balance and you can over or under use it. I was under using it so they gave me the brake release drill to work on. Now I'm braking later and taking advantage of the compressed front suspension which makes the bike turn better and more smoothly transitioning to the gas. As a result I'm better able to accurately set my entry speed and I'm able to take advantage of the compression in my front suspension for additional turning ability. The brake release drill also taught me that the brakes are not an on and off switch. One of Keith's books described the brakes as a "speed adjustment knob". It's so true and the brake release drill taught me this simple principle.
All the techniques the school teaches are quite useful on their own but the real magic at the school is the feedback you can get from one of the coaches. Dylan noticed I was having some real problems with the hip flick and he spent 20 minutes in one of the garages working with me personally to make sure I understood the concept completely. Being able to concentrate 110% on one drill on the track and then getting the feedback from the coaches afterwards is some powerful learning. Every single year I go I accomplish my entire list of goals plus a few that my coach throws in that I had not thought about. The school is so amazing that I go every year and do Level 4 over again. I'm what you call a repeat offender. No plans to stop anytime soon.
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Very interesting. How long does it take for the suit to be flexible again after "washing"?
Might have to try the washing thing sometime just to see how well it works. Sounds a bit scary though. Could be useful though for "breaking in" a suit. On a hot and dry day wet leathers might be like built in A/C at 100mph.
I use a lot of standby suits and lycra undergarments to keep my gear fresh and clean. I'm also rather lucky to have virtually no body scent at all. I could forget my deodorant and ride all day and nobody would notice. Comes in handy in hot humid 100 degree South Georgia track days.
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An interesting question for everyone. What's the most important criteria for you in considering any tire? What do you look for in your tires?
Here are mine.
1. Grip (The more the better)
2. Consistency (I don't like surprises. Whatever a tire does do it all the time)
3. Progressive traction loss (I like tires that have a wide band of traction loss rather than ones that you fall off of a cliff of having traction and then suddenly having none)
4. Feedback (I like a tire that communicates the important stuff to me but does not overload me with unimportant feedback)
All other priorities are secondary including cost and wear.
In my short test on the new tires I'm certain I have 1, 2 and 4. I have not tested 3 and probably won't for a long time but watching a friend slide around with relative ease on the same tires when the time comes the issue will likely just be me rather than the tires.
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It's funny. When it comes to safety I have a "cost no object" mindset. Since my motorcycle is held off the ground by two round rubber objects there's no cost consideration at all in my mind when it comes to those magic rubber things. If there was a tire that provided out of this world grip and amazing flexibility and forgiveness and they cost $1000 each my bike would have them.
That being said though the KR106/108 might give a lot of grip but they don't sound very flexible or forgiving for someone of my skill set. At the moment they are a bit out of my league. I would have em in a heartbeat if I did not think I would end up on my head watching my Superbike tumble across the track.
To put tire cost in perspective. A stock S1000RR will humiliate the $1M+ Bugatti Veyron Supercar. The Veyron wears tires that are $17K a set. Of course you can't change the tires yourself and they have to be sent to Michelin in France where they xray the wheels and the average tire change runs about $70K for the Veyron. For the level of performance we get out of our bikes the tires are a bargain. Imagine being outrun by a bike that costs less than the tires on your Supercar?
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Spaghetti. In one of Keith's books there's a quote "you have to learn to read pavement". It's 110% true but there's a catch like with everything else in life.
The catch of course is if you are no where near the limits of adhesion that pavement reading is only going to slow you down and get you involved in my favorite past time of over thinking things.
Because I'm no where near the limits of adhesion I go out of my way to try and ignore patches of pavement and pretend they aren't any different. When I notice some slight grip issues then I start paying attention and reading pavement. This approach of course requires a progressive and careful speed increase which is not always possible depending on your speed and the type of riding. Riding a brand new track in a race environment and ignoring the surface could have some not so good results. Also pay attention to what other riders are doing. If someone is blasting by you in a corner with spotty pavement using a different line try it and see what it does for you.
I try to keep in mind as well that "some" sliding is no problem at all. Staying calm and staying on the gas and a loss of traction is just an extra thrill. Your tires will give you feedback and tell you what's going on if you are listening.
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Another converted lurker. One down and many many more to go.
I really admire the level of passion you have for keeping the "old stuff" around for the future. So many great old bikes end up unloved and unwanted when the technology evolves. It's nice to see them preserved with all of their war wounds cleaned and kept around. Despite the lack of speed they all have a story to tell and something about them that makes them a hoot to ride.
Good luck on the coach training. Students like myself who come year after year benefit greatly by fresh perspectives. It's a lot of hard work but my guess is it's more than worth it seeing the smiles on the coaches faces.
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It's really interesting to see the differences in the tires and hear other people's feedback on them. My mechanic is a HUGE Dunlop fan. He's mentioned some really interesting things about them like you have that appeal to me. I'm filing all this stuff away for the future.
For now though because of my bike and how most of it's setup was done with Pirelli's I'll probably stick with them. I have a LOT of learning to do about suspension which I have yet to embark on.
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I was talking to a BMW tech the other day at the track and he indicated that ABS pro is available for models beyond just the HP4. I did a bit of digging and found this article that many might be interested in.
http://bmwmcmag.com/2015/09/curve-conquering-abs-pro-retrofitted-to-more-bmw-motorcycles/
I'm going to look into getting one of my bikes coded for this feature and will let you know how that goes.
I know a lot of people aren't a fan of ABS technology and of course this helpful hint is not for them. When I have more time I'm going to do some screen shots of the Race Calibration kit and the massive amount of adjustment you have with the ABS system. Just of course so you know what you are missing out on.
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Blind corners don't really bother me at all. Once I have identified the exit I tend to "imagine" the exit and picture it in my mind even though it's not there yet visually. It takes a few laps of course. I find that many blind corners are some of my best ones as you have to think about them a bit more.
Here's something interesting as well. Corners that have challenged and that I initially hate eventually become my favorites once I have figured them out. They are the part of the track that I know 110% how I'm going to deal with them. The dread of approaching them and paying way more attention to myself while riding them eventually makes them become a lot of fun and extremely rewarding being able to go through fast.
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I'm absolutely sure. I rode with 34/28 off of 180 degree warmers. Check out the specs.
http://www.pirelli.com/tyre/ww/en/motorcycle/sheet/diablo_superbike.html
Front has a range from 32-36 hot
Rear has a range from 25-28 hot
I was really doubtful myself of the 34 psi front but I tried it and it gives great front end feel without any sacrifice of grip. I ran the higher pressure because with the ambient temps there was going to be some cooling that would lower my pressure once I was out on track. On a hotter day I would have gone with the lower pressure as with aggressive riding and a hot track they might have climbed in pressure. The front dropped to about 32psi once they cooled a bit. The whole ambient temp game is still a bit of a mystery to me but I'm starting to pick up on the idea behind it. I still frequently annoy the fast guys at the track asking what pressure they would run if they were a slowpoke like I am.
The Dunlops are a different animal of course. I would certainly check the spec sheet if I were riding on them. I really liked the Q3's that I was running on my RR when I bought it. I'm pretty curious about how the Dunlop slicks are. With tires of course personal preference factors into it a lot and I have heard positives and negatives about every single tire that's out there. You just have to find one that works well for you and gives you confidence. In a lot of ways tires have a huge psychological element to them as there's always someone that can make them stick when you don't think you can.
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Make that two for long corners. The larger they are the more lost I get visually especially at tracks where there's little in reference points.
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Just got back from the track trying out the tires for the first track day of the season. The day started out pretty cold in the 40's so I rode my street bike on Supercorsa SP's until it warmed up. When the temps got into the high 50's I switched to the bike with the Superbike Slicks. Being able to ride both back to back was quite useful. I'll probably ride both bikes more frequently together as it's amazing to see the differences between the bikes.
The slicks were extremely confidence inspiring. I was running a pressure of 34/28 hot and making pressure adjustments off the warmers. I never really had traction issues with the SP's and was far from "out riding" them but the slicks had this solid and consistent feel to them that I really like. Despite the cold temps I got absolutely no cold tearing and had no traction issues even riding entire sessions. The solid and consistent feel was most apparent when the bike was leaned over heavily. It felt much more stable and planted than it did on the Supercorsa SP's.
Riding on the tires today answered most of my questions. Despite the cool temps I did not have any problems keeping them warm. I did not get any cold tearing or have any grip issues. Definitely the right choice for the bike I have them installed on. The street/track bike will stay with Supercorsa SP's. It's just way more flexible of a tire that allows street use and rain and much colder riding than slicks can really handle.
I'm really looking forward to this year at Barber at the school as I really want to get back onto a set of Q3's to compare again. Would love to try a set of the more aggressive Dunlop tires as well just to see what they are like. There are a lot of philosophies on tires. Many of them I don't fully understand. One thing I do know however is trying different tires gives you a lot of good information.
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You left your wallet in the bathroom? How did you do that?
If you think a wallet is bad I lost something much worse. Normally I leave everything unlocked but I was doing the School at Barber and it was during an event with a lot of extra people around. I decided to be a bit more careful "just in case" and I was riding a brand new bike with only 600 miles on it. I had the key to my car and the key to my bike on the same key ring on a wrist band. When I would leave the car I would lock the keys to the trailer, my wallet and my phone inside and lock the trailer and ride. I figured this would be a great way to keep things a bit more secure. Plus I was just paranoid about my new bike. Yes I was polishing it between sessions too!
This worked great until of course I suddenly could not find the keys. I looked EVERYWHERE! I was in an absolute panic because we would be going out on track soon and I had no bike or car or hotel keys or wallet or anything other than my leathers. I took a moment and went into one of the wonderfully air conditioned Barber bathrooms to cool off for a moment and calm down to retrace my steps. When I pulled the top of my leathers down to get some more air I realized that my keys had moved up my wrist onto my arm and were in my leathers the entire time. Then I heard my group being called. You can't imagine how relieved I was.
The really funny thing is my bike and car and stuff were all just fine there. My next door neighbor was riding a brand new HP4 Competition with the keys in it the whole day with her car unlocked too. I was paranoid about a standard RR when any self respecting BMW thief would have walked right by my bike and went for the HP4.
These days I don't lock things up anymore. There's a slightly darker element of why track riders often leave things unlocked that I never understood until I gained a bit more experience and started pitching in for a track day org I ride with. If you get into a crash and end up leaving via ambulance at any trackday or race very kind random strangers will pitch in to carefully pack your stuff. Someone will then get in contact with your family to let them know and to make arrangements for your things. I have witnessed strangers driving hundreds of miles just to deliver bikes, gear and vehicles to a safe place for an injured rider.
This is one of those unwritten rules that makes our sport so amazing. Where else do you see this level of kindness among strangers?
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The ECU and tires are certainly interesting. One of the things that makes me lose interest when it comes to MotoGP is how different the bikes are than anything you can have a real frame of reference on. It's nearly impossible to tell the difference between what the rider is doing and what the bike is doing to help the rider. While I understand the "prototype" nature of the racing the rules are complicated and tend to limit what can really be done on the bike development end of things. Then you have manufacturers like Honda who play the rules. They scream about not being able to develop technology yet are still selling bikes without ABS or TC technology. Eh?
The ECU fixes a bit of this for sure. Would love to see them go one direction or another instead of "in the middle". Prototypes with no displacement, weight or technology limitations whatsoever or shared platform development bikes where every team can choose what shared platform technology they use. No secret sauce and the best sauce and rider wins.
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Cobie. No hater here. I completely agree with your sentiments about Marquez.
I see Rossi stepping up his game and having an amazing season. He does not seem like the type to just give up.
One thing's for certain though. I don't see Rossi and Marquez being pals anytime in the near future. I'm not even really a MotoGP fan but I'll be keeping an eye on those two for sure.
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khp. Thanks for posting those PDF's. Quite helpful. I don't see the 200 series rear that I'm using but since the 170,180 and 190 all have the same pressures it's probably the same.
I chatted with a friend who's pretty familiar with my riding. He set my mind at ease about keeping them warm enough. I'm getting these tires installed sometime this week if things work out as planned. I may be riding on them sooner rather than later. I'll let you guys know what I think.
Track Gloves
in School Questions/General Discussion
Posted
Update. I was curious and checked the price again on the last season Double R gloves. They have dipped below $200. Supply is dwindling so slzing might be an issue but they are great gloves (made by Held) at a fraction of the price.