Timmer
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Posts posted by Timmer
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The Power Commander 5 for the S1000RR is already released. The part number is 12-012.
I can't give a concrete date of when the Ignition Module will be released, but if I had to guess, I would say within the next month or two.
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Hey Mike,
Those are good points for sure. Datalogging is very important to using and understanding our products. That said...we actually already have some of the capability you are talking about.
1. The Control Center software for both Power Commander IIIUSB and Power Commander 5 have live gauges that show throttle position, RPM, and ignition change, along with a bunch of other channels. You can also see a "cell tracer" that shows your current position in the map table. You can see things happen live, but the softwares currently doesn't do any datalogging.
2. The PCIIIUSB channels can also be logged with our dyno software(WinPEP7) alongside power, torque, and any other channels being logged with the dyno. You can view all this data in the dyno graph. We currently don't have this same ability with PC5, but we are working on it.
3. We also have datalogging capability with our LCDs, which we offer for both PCIIIUSB and PC5. You can log all the channels on the Power Commander, download the logged file to your computer, and view the data in Excel. You can create a graph of this data in Excel pretty easily. On the PC5s, you can also log the data from our Autotune kits, so that you can see air/fuel ratio alongside all the Power Commander channels.
We are currently working on a bunch of new stuff, and one of the main goals is to make datalogging capability and experience better than it is now. We're hopeful that we can begin to release some of the new stuff very soon.
Hope that helps.
Best,
Timmer
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Hey Mike,
Now I'm following you. Those are excellent questions.
Why don't more companies offer products to tune ignition timing?
First off...Dynojet is currently working toward making an Ignition Module for the S1000RR, so look for that in the next few months. FYI...One of the things that slows our development down is when we can't find the connectors we need to make our wiring harness. After doing this a while we have a pretty good library of connectors, but BMW decided to use a new one which we have had trouble sourcing. It's moving along now though.
1. The main reason why other companies don't offer more ignition timing products....it's HARD! Haha. Seriously though, it takes a lot of time, money, and development to make ignition products when compared to fuel controllers. A PIGGYBACK fuel injection box(Power Commander, Bazzaz, etc.) is relatively easy. All we have to do there is take in a fuel injector pulse and make it bigger or smaller to add or subtract fuel. Replicating the exact timing of a fuel injector pulse is not terribly critical. Doing PIGGYBACK ignition is more complicated. We have to take in the pulse, figure out exactly when it happened, and then replicate the exact size, and also place it correctly in TIME to within microseconds. The circuitry that is needed to do this is also more complex. It's pretty tricky. The other way of controlling ignition is to ignore the inputs from the ECU(non-piggyback). This takes even more time to develop because you have to figure out the exact ignition curve for EVERY running condition of the bike and program it into the box. Like I said, a company could spend a lot of time and money doing this.
2. The other reason is that on many stock bikes the ignition timing is already pretty good, so the gains that you get for most bikes are not as profound as the gains you get by getting the fueling right. The majority of our customers will buy common aftermarket parts(exhaust/air filter) that effectively change the air flow through the motor. This produces a DIRECT need to change the fueling to make the motor run well after these parts are installed. Adding these types of parts usually does not require a change to the ignition timing.
The only time you really need to change the ignition timing is if the stock ECU's timing is poor(like you mentioned), if you install aftermarket parts that change the compression and/or heat of the incoming air/fuel charge, or if you are using a lower octane fuel. On the big V-twins we usually see pretty good gains when we advance the ignition timing a bit, but most of the sportbikes run pretty aggressive ignition timing from the factory.
Why is it so hard to tune ignition timing?
Probably the biggest reason here is there is no straight forward process to do it! There is no sensor that quantifies the amount of ignition timing you are running.
Knock sensors will tell you if you are running too much under certain conditions, but you can't always get an engine to knock. For example, up here in Montana you can advance the ignition timing a bunch without getting an engine to knock. You can advance it so much that it will show a decrease in torque because the early combustion is counteracting the upward movement of the piston, but it can do this without knocking.
Likewise, how do you measure "not enough"? The only method I have heard of is the "change and check" method. You do a dyno run, make a change to the ignition timing, and then do another dyno run to see if it made an improvement. This method works pretty good, but takes a lot of time/dynoruns to figure out.
This topic is kind of complicated, but I hope that starts to clear it up for you a little bit. Let me know if you have more questions about it.
Best,
Timmer
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Hey Mike!
I'm not totally sure I understand your question...want to make sure I know exactly what your asking.
Do you mean "why don't more companies offer products that allow you to tune ignition timing?" OR do you mean "why is it so hard to tune ignition timing?"?
Also...which BMW are you referring to? S1000RR?
Best,
Timmer
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Glad you like the new toys Dan!
If you want to start doing some serious experimenting/tuning then you might want to get our Autotune and LCD. It will cost you bit up front, but will probably save you money in the long run if you have to take your bike back to the tuning center a few times. You will also get piece of mind with the tune, since you are the one doing it.
With the LCD you can datalog all of the channels on the PC5, Ignition Module and Autotune, so you can really see what the bike is doing. You can datalog while you ride and then look at the data in the pits or at home on your computer. The channels on the PC5 and Autotune that you can datalog includes RPM, throttle position, speed(if connected/calibrated), gear(if connected/calibrated), fuel change %, ignition change, injector duty cycle, and air/fuel ratio.
If you feel like spending the money on other toys, then I would just take it to the local tuning center like you said.
Just make sure that if you get the Autotune, that you block off the PARE valve on your bike before you turn on the Autotune. There should be instructions with the Autotune on how to do this. The PARE valve squirts fresh air from the airbox directly into the exhaust and the oxygen sensor of the Autotune will read this if you don't block it off. The Autotune will think that the engine is running lean and put a bunch of fuel in that area, even though the engine is not running lean.
This has been the cause of A LOT of tech calls for us, so just wanted to make sure that you get the info.
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Sorry you ruined a shift rod Dan, but glad you got it figured out.
Hope you enjoy the quickshifter...they're pretty fun.
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Dan,
Just make sure you are smoking all the other guys on the track and I doubt you will catch any grief about the light purple laptop. Haha.
In answer to your question...the quickshifter is just a simple switch. When you push on the shift lever with enough force it closes the switch inside the quickshifter. The Power Commander detects that the switch was closed and kills fuel and/or spark for the duration of the kill time.
You can actually use a voltmeter/multimeter to test the quickshifter. Just connect both leads of your voltmeter/multimeter to the two wires from the quickshifter. With no pressure on the shift lever you should see that there is no continuity between the two wires of the quickshifter. Now press on your shift lever with a little bit of force. Your voltmeter/multimeter should now indicate that their is continuity between the two wires. Pretty simple eh?
You can use the above method to test your quickshifter should you ever have problems with it.
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Awesome Dan! Looks like you should be ready to go.
In answer to your question about ignition maps....no, we don't have any ignition maps available. There are a lot of factors that affect how much ignition advance a particular bike can run(altitude, fuel octane, modifications, etc.), so it would be impossible for us to make maps to cover all the possibilities.
Remember how I told you that Honda retards the ignition timing at 100% throttle and high RPM to meet noise emissions? You can now fix this by advancing the timing in that area with the Ignition Module! Set the value in your ignition table to 7 in the 80% and 100% TP column from 8000RPM up to redline. That will perk it up in that area. The rest of the map you will have to experiment with or get it tuned on a dyno. You might want to bring your laptop to the track so you can experiment with your new toys.
Best of luck, and have fun at Thunderbolt!
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Dan,
1. When you click the "Send Map" button it only sends the map tables. It does not send configuration changes. Configuration changes are applied when you click "Ok" in the menu boxes for the feature you are changing. When you click "Send Map" the software will send all of the tables to the PC5 and Ignition Module(assuming it is also connected to software). FYI...if you are playing with your PC5 and Ign Module at your desk, make sure that you have BOTH the PC5 and Ignition Module plugged in via USB.
2. The numbers in the ignition map are slightly different than the PC5. In the FUEL map the numbers represent % fuel change. The numbers in the IGNITION map represent degrees of advance/retard. Positive numbers are ignition advance, while negative numbers are ignition retard.
3. This is really up to you. There are varying opinions on this. Personally, I like killing both. I'd suggest trying it both ways and see which one you like better. Honestly, you may not even notice the difference between the two. Important note...when you turn the quickshifter on or change any of the settings make sure that both the PC5 AND Ignition Module are connected to the software. If you turn the quickshifter on with only the PC5 connected to software, it won't get turned on in the Ignition Module. You can do this by USBing both the PC5 and Ignition Module if you are at your desk, or by starting your bike and only USBing the PC5(assuming you have connected the CAN cable between the PC5 and Ignition Module). If both units are connected and talking to software you will see "2 Devices Connected" in the lower right corner of the software.
4. If you just bought your quickshifter, you want to use NORMALLY OPEN. This doesn't have anything to do with the PUSH or PULL type. The NORMALLY OPEN refers to the default state of the quickshifter switch. A NORMALLY OPEN quickshifter is an open switch that closes when you shift. In the past we have used a quickshifter where the default state was NORMALLY CLOSED, which is why we give the option in software. Our latest quickshifter is NORMALLY OPEN.
5. The default 65ms kill time is good to start with. Again, this is kind of a personal preference thing. I would suggest starting with the 65ms and experiment with moving it up and down to find what feels best to you. Most guys run kill times in the 50-85ms range. You CAN do gear dependant kill times, but you will need to wire the speed sensor of the bike into the PC5. From there you need to calibrate the speed input in the PC5, and then calibrate gears in the PC5. There should be instructions in the install guide that comes with the PC5 on how to do this. There is also an additional "Help" section in the PC5 Control Center software.
Hope that helps. Let me know if you have anymore questions.
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Hey Dan,
The part numbers in your shopping list look right to me.
You will also need to get a shift rod like you mentioned. The part number for the shift rod you need is 32104060. The shift rod is already the correct length for your bike. You just need to remove your stock shift rod and install the Dynojet shift rod and Quickshifter in its place.
The instructions that come with the PC5 and Ignition Module should be pretty good, but let me know if you have any questions.
Hope you enjoy the new parts!
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That could definitely be the culprit.
Since you have the YEC, you might try different settings with the YCC-I to see if you notice a difference. I'd be interested to hear your results.
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If the extra cost isn't an issue then I would go with the Quickshifter and Ignition Module.
There's some varying opinions on this, but personally I think the quickshift is a little smoother when you kill spark.
The other reason I would go with the Ignition Module is because you also get ignition timing control.
The CBR600RR and 1000RR come from the factory with retarded ignition timing at full throttle and peak power RPM. I've heard that Honda does this so that the bike will conform to noise emissions, which gets tested at 1/2 the RPM where peak power occurs. By retarding the timing up top they make peak power occur at a lower RPM. No, I'm not making that up...haha.
Anyway, we sell a device called an IRC that fools the ECU so that it doesn't retard the ignition timing up top. You get the same result with an Ignition Module since it gives ignition timing control. You might also get some gains in the lower RPM by advancing the timing a bit.
AND....You also get our Launch Control and Pit Lane Speed Limiter features with the Ignition Module...if those interest you at all.
Hope that helps. Post up any other questions if you've got em.
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Good thoughts there Kai.
One thing though with a fly by wire systems...even if you are WOT that doesn't necessarily mean that the throttle blades are all the way open. You will notice this the most at lower-mid RPM. You could have the throttle all the way to the stop, but the throttle blades might only be 50% open because of the fly by wire. On a stock R6 the throttle blades don't go to 100% until about 7-8000RPM. The throttle blades also back off to 80% at around 14000RPM. A small change to the fly by wire profile in these areas would be noticeable for sure.
Like you said, it could also be the ignition timing profile or the YCC-I profile. Those would also be noticeable.
You might see if you can find a stock configuration that you can load and view in your YEC. Then you could compare the two. I'm not really sure where you could find that, but I would be really interested to see what the difference between the two is.
Cool stuff.
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Sorry for the late response Dan....I've been locked in the dyno room for the last couple weeks.
In answer to your question....
I would suggest getting a fuel controller first(Power Commander, Bazzaz, etc.).
When we make a map for a stock bike, we often see good gains in how the stock bike runs once we are finished mapping it. Eventhough most people equate a Power Commander to more maximum power(full throttle, high RPM), we also get a lot of positive feedback from our customers about improved throttle response and smoother running of the engine in other areas.
If you decide later to add on an exhaust and/or air filter, you will already have the fuel controller to adjust your fueling and make the bike run the best it can with your new parts.
Quickshifters are also a really neat addition. Not only does it feel and sound cool, it also makes an improvement in lap times.
Dynojet offers a bunch of products for your bike. I would start by getting a Power Commander V(part number 16-001). Your bike has 8 injectors, so if you want to add the quickshifter you will also need to get either the SFM(SFM-1)to kill the upper injectors, or the Ignition Module(6-70) to kill spark. The Ignition Module will also allow you to adjust ignition timing, which will give even further power gains on your bike.
Hope that answers your questions. Please let me know if you have any others. I'll make sure I get back to you sooner this time.
Best,
Timmer
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That is a real trick set up!
I am very happy to see this tuning section - I think it's a great idea and thank you very much for your time, information, and assistance, Timmer!
It comes at a perfect time, since I am ready to start making some power mods, etc. I will post a new thread to discuss.
Awesome input BLSDJS...and thanks!
Just post up any questions you have about any of this stuff and I will be glad to answer them.
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Check this out....
Below is a picture of the exhaust from the new Yamaha 990cc MotoGP bike. Those are oxygen sensors installed in the header pipes...one for each cylinder! It gives you an idea of how serious the GP teams are about getting the proper air/fuel ratio on their bikes.
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Lean, rich, or just right?
Getting the proper amount of fuel to a motor during any kind of running condition is essential to making it run right. This is why products like the Power Commander, Bazzaz Z-Fi, and others are so popular. Those products give the ability to change the fueling of the bike for different operating conditions. It is also why dyno shops stay pretty busy measuring and tuning bikes.
So what do we use to describe how much a bike is rich or lean? The answer is....air/fuel ratio.
First, a few definitions...
Ratio: a relationship between two quantities, normally expressed as the quotient of one divided by the other. Example: The ratio of 7 to 4 is written as 7:4 or 7/4.
Air/Fuel Ratio (abbreviated "AFR"): the mass ratio of air to fuel in an internal combustion engine. Example: An air/fuel ratio of 13:1 means a mixture of 13 parts of air and 1 part of fuel.
Stoichiometric air/fuel ratio(abbreviated "stoich"): A ratio of air and fuel such that exactly enough air is provided to completely burn all of the fuel. Example: The stoichiometric air/fuel ratio of petrol(gasoline) is 14.7:1.
Oxygen Sensors
Air/fuel ratio is measured with an oxygen sensor(O2 sensor). The oxygen sensor is either fitted to the exhaust pipe and placed directly in the exhaust stream, or has the exhaust pumped to it(like on a dyno).
Most common AFR range for petrol(gas):
10:1(Very rich)-High concentration of fuel in the air/fuel mixture
11:1
12:1
12.8-13:1(Rich)-this region is typically where you will see a bike make the best peak horsepower(100% throttle, high RPM).
14:1
14.7:1(Stoich AFR for gasoline)-this is the AFR that your bike will run when it is using the oxygen sensor(low throttle, low RPM). It is the "cleanest" burn for emissions.
15:1(Lean)
16:1
17:1
18:1(Very lean)-Low concentration of fuel in the air/fuel mixture
Many guys have their own opinion of what they feel is "rich" or "lean", but air/fuel ratio is what puts a number to it.
I'm sure this might stir up some questions. Let them rip!
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That's awesome guys. Glad I could clear it up a little for you.
That was the quick and simple on that stuff, but there are definitely more details.
If you guys think of any questions on that stuff just let me know.
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I cannot argue with you since I haven't dynod any bike, but it make sense that fixed ignition is set to cope with low grade fuel with the engine working hard under adverse conditions, hence retarded well away from detonation under most situations. BTW; Does most fuel injected bikes run knock sensors these days?
As a curiosity, I remember the old Z1 from the mid-70s gave the most power with the ignition retarded several degrees. Not that it counts for much
Yes...some of the modern bikes are running knock sensors, but not all of them yet. I'm pretty sure the BMW S1000RR's have one.
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More ignition advance is generally good for economy, but not always for power. You want maximum combustion pressure to happen 15-17 degrees after TDC. Too early, and you waste pressure when the piston is basically motionless (or risk having max pressure before TDC, which isn't good) and too late and the available volume have become big enough that pressure drops too rapidly without doing much work. In other words, simply advancing ignition is no guarantee for more power - you could even end up with less.
Yes...there is a "too far" when it comes to ignition timing just like anything else. The result of that would indeed be less power.
However, most manufacturers do not flirt with running ignition timing that close to the limit of knocking. They will usually be conservative with the final ignition timing advance they program into the ECU. They do this because they do not want a bike that will have 10's of 1000's of miles(or more) put on it to knock under ANY circumstances. This is where the power is to be had.
In the few hundred or so vehicles I have tuned on the dyno and at the track, most of them gained power just by advancing the timing a few degrees in some area of the map.
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Glad you're liking the YEC stuff. It is definitely nice to have it all in one box.
Ya know it's tough for us....we try to modularize our products because we don't if a guy wants EVERYTHING or just enough to tune his bike for the exhaust he just bought. There are definitely pros and cons for either way.
Yeah you can't really cater to all needs and desires. Well, you could ... but it wouldn't be economically viable for Dynojet to do it.
I just remembered yesterday what really makes the YEC box stand out from the PC3: midrange power. With the YEC box, the R6 will do a very controlled wheelie under hard acceleration, something I've never experienced when running with the PC3 (on the same bike) - several racers I know have noticed this too about the YEC box.
I cannot give you hard data, since this would require two dynoruns back to back with each setup (and it takes 1-2 hours to swap the wiring loom over), something I've never bothered to do. But if you really want to know why, it should be simple enough to buy a YEC box with loom and data cable and try it at Dynojet HQ
Kai
Hmm...that is interesting.
One of the things I know you can do with the YEC stuff is change the fly-by-wire throttle profile. The Power Commander can't change that. That could definitely have an effect in the mid range.
Maybe this could possibly be the change you are noticing?
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Hey mugget,
Excellent question on octane rating! A lot of people think that higher octane fuel will make more horsepower. This is FALSE! There is a common misunderstanding that leads to this thinking.
Let's examine 85 octane versus 92 octane. We know that 92 octane is more resistant to knocking than 88 octane, but why? The answer is in the additives that are put in the fuel. The additives that fuel companies put in the fuel to make it more "knock resistant" actually make the fuel burn slower. By making the fuel burn slower(release it's energy slower) it will be less likely to go "kaboom", or detonate, or knock(same thing).
For the same engine, and assuming it doesn't knock, you will actually make MORE horsepower with the 85 octane fuel!
I know what you are thinking...why do we use 92 octane if 85 makes the best power? If you look at my previous post about the causes of knock, you can kind of see why.
Using the 92 octane fuel you can...
1. Run a higher compression ratio. Higher compression ratio = more power. Most engines these days use much higher compression ratios than 20 years ago.
2. Run more ignition timing advance. More ignition timing advance = more time for fuel/air mixture to burn = more power and better fuel economy.
3. Run a turbocharger/supercharger. Most stock vehicles don't have a turbo, but you ABSOLUTELY need to run higher octane fuel if you have one.
4. Run a slightly leaner mixture. Since you can now run more ignition timing advance, you can also run slightly less fuel because you are getting a more complete burn of the fuel/air mixture.
The common misunderstanding is that the higher octane fuel is what makes the best power, but in reality the higher octane fuel just allows the engine to be run at a higher state of tune.
Make sense?
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Hey Kai,
Glad to hear the Power Commander made your roadbike run well. No worries on running the YEC stuff...I realize that there are other products out there.
I have also heard about guys running the YEC stuff with a Power Commander. Some of the AMA racers do that. They like using the PC5 and Autotune, but also want some of the features that the YEC stuff has.
Just curious....Now that you've run the YEC stuff for a while...how do you like it? What features do you like most?
I ran the YEC stuff all 2011 (about 6 days of riding due to weather and other priorities) and can't really complain - it's just been working: injection, quickshift, etc.
On the other hand, I can't say that I'm utilizing all the features the system has. It's nice that it's a single integrated system with a pruned down wiring loom, single SW package for controlling everything, and you can use a 'simple' straing-gauge quickshifter and just plug it in (€220 instead of €420).
On the downside, I was surprised that they didn't deliver connector kits for on/off switch, QS input etc in the kit which is around €1000 (wiring loom, ECU, data cable).
On the mechanical side, one of the best things I've done is to replace the original "slipper" clutch with an aftermarket slipper from Sigma. Previously the rear tire would squirm under hard braking and slamming down through the gear - now it's dead straight (until I lift the rear...). Took maybe a couple of laps to really trust this, and off you go
Hey khp,
Glad you're liking the YEC stuff. It is definitely nice to have it all in one box.
Ya know it's tough for us....we try to modularize our products because we don't if a guy wants EVERYTHING or just enough to tune his bike for the exhaust he just bought. There are definitely pros and cons for either way.
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I'm running the Bazzaz gear with TC and quickshift on my K6 GSX-R1000. It's a bit of a mystery brand out here in Australia - I think it is actually banned from the local/national race series, so practically no one bothers with it. But I wanted it because I didn't want to feel left out riding a bike with no traction control and no quickshift.
It's worked so far - I stopped lusting over any new bikes... for now...Only other mods are a BMC road/street air filter and an M4 GP exhaust. That exhaust ended up being a real hassle to tune, from what I can gather. There was alot of dyno time (more than one day), but I'm glad that I got it done by a reliable shop, and they spent the time to get it right. The difference after I picked it up was night and day - the first thing I noticed was that it was just so so much smoother, even compared to the OEM fuel map with the stock exhaust fitted. After that I decided that a dyno tune would be one of the very first things to have done to any other bike I own. All that wiring was a real mess to install though, had one connector plugged into the wrong spot and was going out of my mind. Lesson learnt, double check each plug against the instructions.
I think I managed to keep it all fairly neat though:
I also have the Bazzaz TC trim & map switches - I had planned to get two dyno maps done, one for the open exhaust and another for use with the quiet baffle. Turns out the quiet baffle was really not so good to use... the guy at the shop mentioned that I was just ridiculous how much it restricted the exhaust flow, and that it could cause problems with additional heat etc. So that plan was ditched. The below dyno graph shows before the tune, with the quiet baffle fitted - compared with afterwards and the open exhaust:
The exhaust is hella loud - the poor guys working at the shop were nearly deafened even though they were outside the dyno booth.
So now whenever I see people asking about the M4 GP exhaust I warn them off the baffle. Sounds awesome, I just ride very sedately around town and I haven't got any tickets yet...
I did get a bung welded in the exhaust for the O2 sensor to be used with the AFM module. I went out one night and started to tune that, but found it to be very tedious, which is when I just decided to go with the dyno tune.But now that I've got a good base map it's handy to have the AFM sitting in the shed in case I change any other parts and want to make a tweak. (Although everything around the exhaust and fairings was really tight, with the O2 sensor it doesn't all fit ideally, but that's another story.)
A question about the O2 sensor that comes with the PC5 - do you advise people to remove it after tuning, or just to leave them in? I read a bit about problems with water fouling the sensor and even the sensor just getting 'used up' after a period of time? That's one of the problems I have - no room to put the bung on the top half of the exhaust so it's practically on the bottom... which is why I didn't want to leave it sitting installed for too long.
Dang! Nice explanation mugget...Looks like she's making pretty good power too!
To answer your question on the O2 sensors....
The O2 sensors that the PC5/Autotune uses are heated when they are being used. Just like anything else, they do wear out, but the sensor life on those is pretty good. I've heard of guys that have been running them for years and they are still working fine. What really kills the sensor life is if you have it in the exhaust stream, but it is not being heated(not hooked up).
So I'd suggest either leaving it in and connected, or taking it out completely.
I've heard that some guys will leave the O2 sensors in(and let Autotune make small adjustments), and I've also heard of guys that take them out as soon as they get the bike tuned how they want.
Make sense?
I think I managed to keep it all fairly neat though:
What Electronics Are You Guys Running?
in School Questions/General Discussion
Posted
Hey DrIoannis,
Hmm...that map does look a little strange. There's definitely something weird going on.
Here are a few things that come to my mind to check:
1. Did you unplug the stock O2 sensors? If you didn't then you will have the ECU's Autotune and Power Commander's Autotune fighting each other.
2. Do you have an error codes on the Power Commander? You can check this in the Power Commander software.
3. Have you updated to the latest firmware? You can find this on the Power Commander website.
Those are the things off the top of my head...
In answer to your other question about the quickshifter...
Autotune only works within a window of AFRs that is specified in the Power Commander. We did this so that Autotune would not run during cases like quickshifting when the AFR goes very lean or also when the O2 sensor goes bad and reads very rich or very lean.
Hope that helps,
Timmer