paab

I wasn't trying to start a pissing match, but when you said most people can go fast enough to slide the front, I took exception. I wouldn't pretend to know your skill level. Now that you mention them, you're credentials make you faster than me. I'm .8 seconds off the 125 record at Loudon if it matters, but here's a question: If you're method is THE fast one, then why do ALL the motoGP racers trail it in deep? I understand they have more HP, but couldn't they go even faster if they didn't do it? I mentioned earlier that I made big gains lat in the season by staying on the gas DEEP into the turns. I had stopped getting faster getting off the brakes before turn-in. Now, I trail brake in most turns. It may be a difference in bikes, rider styles, traction levels, etc. I honestly don't believe one way is better than the other. I'll use whatever gets me the results. Right now, that's trail braking. If I stop getting faster with this approach, then I'll consider trying to get new results with other techniques.

There's a problem in your logic ballistic. You assume that just because someone is pushing the front, that they have reached maximum velocity for the turn. NO WAY! I teach at a lot of trackdays, and I see people sliding things all over the place going SLOW! They just suck, or they are trying to hard and are too tense on the bars, etc. Anyway sliding is far from indicating that you have reached maximum speed. Also, if you are letting go of the brakes late enough to keep the front end from rising, then you ARE trail braking, no question. You likely can release the brake before reaching max lean and therefore sliding the front is irrelevant because you off the brakes by then anyway.

Ha! That's a great trick for finding out you're braking to much. I will often try to let off the brakes a second sooner than normal. 9 times out of ten I can still hold the line, and I carry more speed. Then I move my brake marker closer.

Well said, that's what I was getting at when I said the bike turns in better. I don't have a problem leaning it quickly on the brakes, and it's more stable/smoother for the reasons you stated.

When you are on the brakes, rake and trail are reduced. It has to be easier to turn in under these conditions. If not, perhaps you're tense on the bars and fighting the countersteer thing? CON: It's hard to relax when you're hard on the brakes. Definitely true about the suspension/bumps... If you turn in slower, isn't the radius bigger? That's why you have to lean more. To try to tighten it up.

OK, Pros: Able to brake later to make passes Bike turns in better (geometry) Speed is scrubbed very quickly Less time is wasted trailing throttle (not accomplishing anything) If it's done right, you can drop time from your laps Cons: Less traction available, especially for mid corner corrections/evasive manouvres Speed is scrubbed very quickly rider inputs are closer together, less time to do everything Harder to get on the gas early Mid corner speed may suffer If it eats up to much focus, lap times could go up or you could crash

I made big gains on my 125 late this season by going in deeper... REALLY deep before applying the brakes. This meant I was trail braking a bit more. The bike seems easier to steer/turn in with the brakes applied. The thing I found was that with both lean and brakes you scrub speed in a hurry. Getting off the brakes aand back on the gas early is key. This means things happen quickly. no time is spent off the brakes and trailing throttle-something I used to do a fair bit of.

Well, What kind of a budget do you have? How far are you willing to travel? From upstate New York the Can Am series might be the shortest travel. Loudon has a great 125 class (that's what I run). It's easily as competitive as any of the national series USGPRU events are a blast, too. Welcome to the fold. I like to see this class growing! Paab