paab

Light to moderate chatter, Yes, I often just turn it in and it settles right down. Heavy wheel hop, chain slapping, suspension jacking chatter, no.

Well, You're right, it could be setup, but it holds true for me on several different bikes. I race lightweight stuff, and use high corner speed. I keep my slicks pretty fresh. Forks/shock sorted by a pro (but I realize they're not perfect). I'm an experienced, competitive expert racer. Generally, I know that opening the gas earlier prevents front slides and chatter, but if either one of these conditions starts, I can't solve it by opening the gas more. Does anyone else out there have similar experience? Or am I way off base?

You *can* save almost anything, but the risk of highsiding does go up as you try to save bigger and bigger moments. This year I saved a lowside (T2 Loudon) where both tires came of the ground. I was sliding on the footpeg, my ass and my elbow. I dug my outside heel into the bike so hard and the wheels touched down and the bike stood up. The corner workers were jumping up and down! It takes a lot of experience sliding and crashing to learn what you should try and what you should not. You do learn how to feel the slides earlier and earlier and picking up the bike is the answer. Getting on the gas doesn't seem to work for me because it just pushes the front MORE, or lifts it of the ground. I know that's the theory around here, but it just hasn't been my reality. I've never heard a pro say they gassed it to save a front slide. They usually say "I picked it up off my knee"

Yes. Simple maximum braking a la MSF in a parking lot will help. 20mph, straight line, pick a marker and stop as quickly as you can. Measure your distance and practice until you are confident floating the rear tire only a 1/2 inch off the pavement. Keep your weight back as possible. Stoppies don't help your effectiveness. Increase your speed only when you feel your results are consistent and highly effective. Braking and turning are 2 different skills. practice them separately for a while and it will come together...

Go slow to go fast. Finish a few seasons without getting hurt or crashing too much. Forget about "getting it loose". That's a LOOONG way down the road. Patience is the key to a long and successful career.

Nope, your line was the first order of business. You can't have all those markers if you don't know what line you're aiming for. If you can do all that and still have brain power to focus on other things, you're either the top rider in the country, or you're just not going very fast... It should just about take all your focus. If not, you can always plan for dinner

The faster you go, the more important it is. What you see on the racetrack are the results of riding near the limit of the bike's ability to cope. It's not rough rider inputs, but incredibly high braking, cornering and acceleration forces that make the bikes wiggle and squirm. If you not smooth at that level, you're going to be on your a$$. On the street it's not as critical, but it does make you a safer rider.

Way too much compression damping? One click out? Where did you come up with that setting? I don't have a 636, but I'm just wondering. Have you changed fork oil? geometry? or done anything to the bike?

OK that went in the wrong direction. This is refering to your outside foot mid corner, no? You probably aren't braking or shifting. it' just locking you onto the bike. The most solid position is the best one.

I'd have to call BS on the leverage thing. The arch of your foot is much less solid than the ball (muscle Vs. bone). Most all leg based athletic manuevers get their power from the big toe, not the arch. If it's more relaxed and comfy, then OK, but It's just a style/comfort issue, not a leverage one.

I just watched Doug Henry do some serious tire shredding at Loudon. He was pushing the bike under motocross style. He was shredding tires so fast it was unreal. He would step it out in the breaking zone, and never bring it back in line until he was going straight again. Some fast locals were right on his tail using the roadrace style hanging off. Their tires were in decent shape after the race and they were mostly in line through the turns.

If you're steering to keep the bike up in a turn, then you are doing something wrong. Use the throttle to keep the bike up. Crack the throttle open as soon as the bike is at the desired lean angle, and roll on smoothly to keep the bike up mid corner and increase roll on as you stand it up. Taking the class is a great idea. If you can't afford it, a well organized trackday might be a cheaper way to learn a few things about this topic.

Hmm... I don't think pushing on the bar has anything to do with it. In fact, I think that's the way most fast racers initiate a turn. Pulling on the outside bar is a much less controlled movement, and DEFINTELY less powerful. When you push, it comes from your center of gravity and has your weight behind it. Pulling tends to tug you off center, plus unless you lean back, there's not much leverage/power there. I would reconsider that technique... I'm not a CSS instructor, but I am a race instructor as well as MSF instructor. I would never tell anybody to pull on the outside bar. Leaning with the bike just takes practice. Moving your butt to the inside edge of your seat as you prepare to turn helps, as well as leading with your chin.

At MSF, they say it is a factor at 12mph. Admittedly, the amount of countersteer needed at that low a speed is over with quickly, but if you didn't do it, you'd have a hard time not tipping over.

Bones, No offense intended: I think it's dangerous. I run my warm-up lap hard. As a result, I'm often in front of people gridded ahead of me. Weaving is chaos. There is no good reason to do it. As alwayslearning mentioned, you just exposed the "fresh rubber" on your warm-up lap!!!

The slowest I can drag my knee on a big bike is about 7-10mph. It's a bit hard to look at the speedo while doing this though!!!

Excellent question! I think every racer with half a brain grapples with this one. The answer(s) are different for everyone. The adrenalin is a byproduct for me. I'm drawn in ever deeper by the satisfaction derived from a VERY high level of focus preparing the bike, my body, and my mind. If I take care of the details, the racing is pure fun. If I neglect any part of this, it's so frustrating that I wonder why I do it. This has been a lesson for my career, my relationships, everything really. I'm not trying to judge your situation, but two serious injuries as an amatuer may indicate that you're rushing this thing a bit. If you're not fastest today, at least make sure you're in one piece for tomorrow. Patience will take you a long way in this sport. I hate it when I see people get hurt. Good luck with your search... There were some good articles in RoadRacingWorld about this stuff earlier this year. Try to get your hands on these for some good food for thought.

Glad to see there are no tire primadonnas here! The tread on those pirellis goes away pretty quickly, though. They also slide very easily anyway. I raced a set of michelins to the cords, it was definitely a learning experience. Front end chatter became a real problem as the compound hardened. I don't think blueing is any indicator of traction. My tires go blue after one race if they sit for a while. Obviously, you race on fresher stuff?

That sounds like fun! I've never been at a track with turns that allow that, but I can see using the brake to make a quick transition like that. Have you tried it with just throttle and no brake? Step it out and then chop the throttle to kick you toward the high side? In a slow in fast out chicane I like to carry one extra gear into the slow turn, and once I hit the apex, I open the throttle QUICKLY as I stand it up for the second bend. The bike is so easy to steer it is silly. and since I have taken up all the lash, and I'm in the soft part of the power I can hold it open and ride the torque curve all the way through the second bend nailing the power band just as I begin to pick it up. It fells AWESOME when I nail it just right. As you said, this is when I'm chasing or trying to make a gap. Try at your own risk!

Ha! Bones, did you find out just how far out/back your leg could bend?! I hooked my puck on a curb once and it pulled my leg out so far that I was dragging the INSIDE of my knee I know pick it up a bit at the apex of curbed turns... I agree with most, it will happen when it happens. This is just another result of practicing the basics. It shouldn't be thought of as a technique in and of itself.

Scotto, If you could figure out the math behind this, you'd be the very first, and probably reach godlike status in the moto world. Unfortunately I think the reality is a lot more complex than a single mathematical model. There are chemical reactions in the tire, temperature, humidity, characteristics of different pavements, and don't forget the chemical reactions that are guiding the riders inputs. There will never be an equation that can tell us what the fastest way through corner is. I agree that if you watch todays best racers, they are trail braking very deep into the corners. That's about all I can say for sure...

Right now you can get a great 125 for 3,000. Make sure it's 1995+ They are cheap to buy, but expensive to maintain. save some dough for the off-season rebuild$$ Don't expect this to be an "easy" class though. There may be few amatuers involved, but the experts are here because these are serious race bikes. Not at all easy to get the most out of. There relly aren't any easy classes at Loudon. It's the biggest club racing outfit going and the (top) level is pretty high. This (GP singles) is the only class I know of where the Amatuers run with the experts. I think it's a good format because there are so few amatuers on these bikes. You get to see the better riders on track from the start. Let me know if you need any help. At the track, I'm in center garage #4.

Just be sure to take the manually operated times as an estimate. Infrared timers can easily be set to do splits. You just need a few beacons and a little knowledge of the buttons. Or, if you have any crew, they can manually time splits for you. They can get other riders splits for comparison as well. Just a cuation about working on section times. If you ease up too much on the other parts of the track, you can have a different level of traction the next time through. I've crashed this way.

I was going on the definition Steve mentions, letting off the brakes after steering input. Of course it includes braking at any angle of lean. Keith mentioned earlier, it is likely to occur to some degree in every turn. You guys have an advantage over me. It's snowing like crazy here and my bike is in pieces. OT- As for backing it in, sure I understand that engine braking is coming into play, but there are 2 different things I see out there. The b. bostrom style wagging the tail under heavy engine braking/rear brake. This clearly can occur with out trail braking. Then there is the Rossi style where the bike doesn't wag, but steps out in one direction. I assume this can only happen with the front brakes applied and some steering input. In fact, he has countersteered by default in this situation. When I rode diesels I found this happening in the pre-turn for T1 at loudon. Heavy front brake and a slight preturn was all that was needed to back it in (engine braking at normal/non-skid levels). As soon as I let of the brake the rear hooked up and I laid it over.

OK, Sorry about the generalization, but when I watch those guys back it in so often, it's pretty clear to me that they trail brake. But they may not do it all the time. To answer your question then, Yes on occasion I have pushed/drifted the front, both on and off the brakes. It seems to me that the front doesn't usually push til mid-corner. That still leaves some time for trail braking. I'm not set on this. There are corners where I don't use the technique. Why? that's what I'm trying to figure out. Your input is appreciated. btw, congrats on the lap record! That ROCKS!