racer
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Posts posted by racer
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Good picture. That would be a challenge with the throttle, wouldn't it? Wonder what that concrete is like, if one could transistion easily on/off it. Looks like a fairly classic double apex type of turn.
C
Sort of reminds me of the old Loudon banked turn... in reverse.
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Nice photo kwh!!!
I didn't have much time to search and only checked the first couple of links. Thanks for your effort!
Hi ace,
You are right, the label on "my" map should have been on the inside of the loop to be closer to the carousel corner. I knew it was the left hander after the hairpin and figured folks would get that when I pointed it out as the left hander.
Cheers,
racer
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I believe the carousel Caricciola-Karusel is just after km 13.
http://www.scuderia-hanseat.de/en/nuerburgring-roadmap.html
I believe the approach is uphill prior to dipping down into the left hand carousel. I'm not sure about the exit.
Here are some photos of the carousel/banking:
http://www.tsrennsport.com/weblog/?p=366
http://www.tsrennsport.com/weblog/?p=367
http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&...=1&ct=title
And apparently they are racing on the Nordshliefe again!
My bucket list definitely includes riding a race bike on the Nordshliefe. But now I will add driving for a 24 hour team.
Hello Mini! Hello Porsche! Here I am on Nordshli-efe!
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The best thing to do is learn/practice matching revs for downshifts by blipping the throttle first. Then, after you have that down, learn/practice doing it with the front brake. The trick is to slide your fingers over the brake lever to maintain even brake pressure while blipping.
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Well, I've called 5 times (always get the machine) and left 2 messages over the past week. Guess they're not interested. Looks like a hotel for me. See you all in Aug.
Tim
Hi Tim,
I too left messages at the White Fence Inn last week and recvd no reply at all. I can only assume that they are full and don't wish to spend the money on a phone call to tell me. (Perhaps I will share my free long distance plan with them.) I thought that if I called back at a different time, they might just answer the phone. Honestly, I was a little surprised at Cobie's suggestion as the WFI is relatively small and, in the past, the school booked the entire place for the CSS crew.
Oh well... perhaps some of us could share expenses. If anyone is interested in that idea, send a PM or an email.
Regards,
racer
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Hi Jaybird180,
I change fork oil at least once a year as a matter of basic maintenance regardless of any issues. A complete teardown isn't necessary to change the fork oil; but, I do remove the fork tubes from the bike (one at a time) so that I can work the stanchion in and out to completely drain and flush the old oil from the dampers. Afterward, the alignment procedures mentioned by marcus and Balistic are highly recommended to prevent binding. If you still have significant stiction at that point, then there might be other issues with the forks, such as low quality oil seals (I use OEM or NOK) or worn bushings which can lead to excessive flex and binding in the fork tube itself. And there may be other tricks to try. For instance, some racers run without dust seals on their forks in an attempt to reduce stiction. In fact, my HRC RS factory roadracers do not include dust seals on the forks at all.
Bon chance,
racer
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This is stuff we go over in Level 1 and is all over the A Twist of the Wrist, Vol II book. What's up, did you guys forget???
Keith
*chagrined*
No, Keith, I didn't forget. I'm merely repeating what I've heard/read from other supposedly knowledgeable sources in an attempt to clear this up. My own experience supports what I've read in TOTW. And I was surprised to hear an instructor from another school say different.
Are there other excpetions besides a shaft drive bike? Can tire profile affect it? I've found worn tires, especially "squared off" from street riding, can seem to cause instability.
Thanks,
Bill
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I have to agree with David and Rick's observations. Speaking as someone who has many miles and years of racing a GP shift pattern, the foot stays out there and near the ground longer than it would on average. When I saw Rossi doing it, I thought, "Boy, he must really be off balance to take so long to put his foot back up". So, FWIW... at the very least, the situation is something more than nothing, ie. just putting me foot back, mate.
racer
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Hi samuidave,
The first part of your post appears to be quoting me, so, I'll try to explain in more detail what I was on about there. The point is merely that due to several variable factors, not all bikes are always "hands-off" stable at lean angle. This can be caused by tire profile or the inter-play of front geometry and degree of acceleration. My posting this here was an attempt to gain more info from others with more experience or awareness of this.
PS - There are several ways to offset "quotes" from another post. First is to simply click on the "reply button at the lower right of any post. You should be signed in first to post a reply. Another way is to use BBCode without the name tag
[/quote ][/b]. Delete the last space to make it work and there is more BBCode available from the BBCode help button again below right side of posting field. Last would be to simply use quotation marks. Just a friendly suggestion.racer
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racer, no offense taken at all. I just now have the means to put my self through school and as with anything I do I like to get as much info as possible.
Always a good idea.
Thanks.
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Ah-soooo. At my level of riding it might not make a really big difference, but, at the level they are riding... every little bit counts.
That sounds pretty good to me.
Ha! I had to re-read my post to see what you meant. You had me for a second.
I love sarcasm!
I was referring to 'THEIR' level as nearly unobtainable skills at the top level of 'OUR' sport.
Er... it was not my intention to be sarcastic. I'm not sure what you mean, but, I wasn't being self-deprecating either. I really do believe Rossi is a better rider than I am.... on his better days anyway...
(now I'm being sarcastic!)
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Ah-soooo. At my level of riding it might not make a really big difference, but, at the level they are riding... every little bit counts.
That sounds pretty good to me.
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Well, I've slept on this for a while now and I feel pretty confident that the critical issue is the the slip angle and camber thrust at the rear wheel determing the radius for a specific lean angle. Varying speeds which cause more or less "cornering force" alter the slip angle(s) and camber thrust at the rear wheel causing a proportional change in radius.
Thanks for eveyone's input so far. I am still interested in the gyroscopic forces and there is still significant disagreement between scientists of note just how much gyro forces contribute to the motorcycle. I think that the experiments with bicycles have limited value considering how much heavier motorcycle wheels are, especially when combined with the significantly higher speeds that are typical of the motorcycle in general.
Someone suggested a couple of months ago that precessional "gyro" forces are always at play due to the constant "angular acceleration" or circular motion of the bike as it moves through a corner.
Any thoughts about this idea?
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The most telling aspect of the rear steering or maintaining the bikes attitude to the road surface is during a leaned-over tank slapper. The bike continues on its merry way with no lean angle changes that are perceptible. It is easy to notice that the bike maintains its line over bumpy pavement despite the fact the front end is rotating side to side.
What a coincidence... I swear I was just about to say the same thing.
Thanks for your input, Keith.
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Thank you for your input. It isnt that iprotant to ride one like mine I was just wondering. I have herrd of nothing but great things coming out of California superbike schools. I hop to be going to one in oct.
Please forgive my somewhat flippant response. I was feeling a bit defensive (about the school) I guess.
As it happens, the different CSS schools based in UK and OZ both use different brand bikes from the US based school. And some other schools here in the US offer different type bikes as well, ie. twins instead of in-line fours. And it is understandable that you might wish to ride the same type of bike as you ride on the street.
Again, my apologies.
Sincerely,
racer
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I've noticed that myself lately and my first thought was that, based on my own experience, they are in the process of putting their foot back up on the peg after pulling it out from under the shifter, finshing their backshifting at the last minute before turning in. I've even noticed Rossi doing this. However, considering how long they leave it floating out there, I think it is possible that they may also be leaving it out in case they need to catch the bike if it gets too sideways or maybe pushes the front too much maybe. The truth is I really don't know. I didn't really expect Rossi to be "flat tracking" it, but, who can say... except Val?
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Thanks, Cobie. Waiting to hear back from them. Setting, location and people can trump a lack of A/C!
Am I to assume that racer is one of the coaches? Will I be seeing him/her at the camp?
A little follow up on the b and b--it's been great, but not every single room has a/c, that can be an issue for some. But the setting, location, people--excellent. Now you and racer can continue your philosophical discussions!C
Well, I am planning to be at Mid-O for the races and for the school. And I do intend to tender my coaching application shortly. Hopefully in time for a try out at Mid-Ohio. If not, there's always Virginia.
That said, I have worked with the school in various capacities in the past: as a corner worker, glorified gopher and "roadie" ... a very long time ago.
And, I have stayed at the White Fence Inn (it's pretty special) a couple of times with the school and really wish Cobie hadn't posted the phone number as I was hoping to book a room myself this week. While I did sleep on the floor in the linen closet the last time I stayed there, I was really hoping to get an actual bed with my breakfast this time!
(Thanks Cobie Dog!)
Oh well. It'll be what it'll be. Ill find out tomorow. One thing for sure, whatever it is, it's always pretty special at Mid-Ohio.
Cheers.
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I know, I know. I was just having a little fun myself.
That said, I would say that my point (or John Lennon's) is also a jab at modern vernacular and attitude. Since "problems" and "issues" so easily become points of drama where people get stuck in narcissistic self-pity or overwhelm, why go there at all? In this way, a solution isn't needed in response to a problem, it is simply the first response to circumstance.
Cheers
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It's not an "issue", it's a PROBLEM!!
There are no problems, only solutions.
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Very interesting. Now I understand why Ducati is testing a Carbon Fibre frame on the GP09 bike and talking about laying the fibres to make it stiffer in one direction and more flexibile in another.
SHHH!!!
(haha)
that's great. i had no idea ducati were doing that, but, it certainly makes sense from that point of view now, eh?
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Welcome back Carl,
It seems there may be some misunderstanding of what I (and Keith Code) are saying or perhaps some confusion over terminology here. I'm not sure exactly what "conical steering" means as someone else made it up and I don't know that it is a very good term in any case. I certainly don't understand what it means when I am being attributed with using it as a reason why the rear wheel is responsible for the direction a bike moves while at stable lean angle. And I think the phrase may be leading to some miscommunication. That said, if you want to clarify that "conical steering" means the same thing as "camber thrust", that is a phrase I am familiar with.
In any case, there are directions (or types) of consistent motion (including circular) and there are changes in direction. Camber thrust or "conical steering" is not really, in this case, about changing direction. It is about a direction or type of consistent motion. This is why I think the word "steering" in "conical steering" may be leading to confusion as it seems it might imply an active change in direction or type of motion. While traveling in a circle is a constant change in direction, in this case, I think the key word is constant, which denotes a constant "direction" to me.
That said...
Rider input at the handlebar turning the front wheel will change lean angle. And, when changes in radius are due to a change in lean angle, again, ultimately, rider input at the bars moving the front wheel will be responsible. Everyone seems pretty clear on that.
Once the lean angle is established and the bike is accelerating, the direction the bike moves is determined by the rear wheel. You can use the word "stabilized" rather than "determined", but, at the end of the day, it effectively means the same thing when the lean and radius are stable. Both through personal experience and the research of others like Keith Code, the evidence for this seems overwhelming to me.
In any case, the question I am interested in is about the mechanics of a bike running wider with more cornering force when the lean angle remains consistent. I think I mentioned "slip" angles before and that that is where I left it. The critical or salient point being that the "slip" that is responsible for the radius is happening at the rear wheel while the front wheel actually changes the direction it is pointed as a result of that "slip" angle happening at the rear.
Thanks for the link. I will check it out.
racer
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Of the schools that offer a bike to ride, I'm not aware of one that offers options. If riding one like yours is really important to you, you should probably bring your own bike as the school bikes are modified and set-up for track riding and will feel and handle a good bit differently (better!) than a stock street bike.
In general, I think there are much more important criteria for choosing a school. If you don't believe what you read here about this school being light years better than all the rest, then by all means, go ride another school or one that has a bike like yours and then come back and ride the California Superbike School and let the forum know what you think.
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Hey Red,
Sorry to hear about experience with Traxxion Dynamics. Assuming you clearly communicated your needs (and it sounds like you did and do communicate well), then that looks really bad for them. And, obviously, going three for three, you have given them the benefit of the doubt to be sure and paid a high price for it. Get me once shame on you, get me twice, etc.
I don't like to speak ill in public of a business or persons but unfortunately, yours is not the first story I have heard along these lines re: TD lately. I used to race with the guy (10-15 yrs ago) who started the company, no idea how involved he is anymore, but, I know he had the best intentions when he quit racing to go into business. In any case, Im glad to hear that Penske took care of you, though I don't blame you for not returning to TD.
As for your testing prgram, it sounds like you have a good handle on a good beginning. I have heard good things about Tony Foale as a suspension/chassis guru. He has books and gives seminars. My specialty is more motors than chassis, but, I will try to find some time to do some research to add as, obviously, I have a lot to learn and could beneift as well.
Good luck,
racer
PS - Technically, the shock will (should) define your range of travel, ie. you will hit the bump stops before binding the spring (unless PL is wound way down on a soft spring or something). I was using the spring binding to physically locate where I was re: my point about operating closer to the top of the spring.
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I don't usually change ride height for a gearing change.
In any case, how much did your wheelbase increase?
You could use that figure and some right triangular trigonometry to figure the difference. If you know the measurements of all three sides or one side and the front angle or two sides then consider the rear contact patch as the point of a 90 degree "right" angle. it should be a simple matter.
If you give me your measurements and/or angles, I will show you how.
Tire Pressure
in School Questions/General Discussion
Posted
Howdy Hub (and Shannon),
Expansion is caused by heating due to the tire carcass flexing. The degree of expansion will be proportional to the difference between the ambient temperature ("cold" /pre-ride) and terminal tire temp ("hot" /post-ride). If you start with lower pressures, the tire flexes more. So, more flexion equals more heat equals more expansion and pressure.
Although having your tire pressure set too high can reduce the size of the contact patch, and pressure set too low can cause the front tire to squirm under braking, the most critical factor is the terminal temperature of the compound. On a hot day, you won't need to change the temperature of the tire as much as on a cold day to reach optimum tire temp. By the same token, you need more relative tire temp increase on a cold day. Hence, on a cold day, you need to set the pre-ride pressure a bit lower to create more flexion to get the tire compound up to optimum temp. And vice versa on a hot day.
Back in the "old days" of bias ply race rubber, the rule of thumb was to look for about a 15% rise in pressure. And 10% was still a fair ballpark figure for the "new" radial race rubber, but, not really accurate. If memory serves, the rule of thumb is/was about 180 F. (Hence why non-adjustable tire warmers were pre-set for that range.) Your tire rep should be able to provide you with the optimum temperature (and pressures) for your brand and model for best traction and wear. A tire temp probe should be available from a race supply store on-line or at the track.
Cheers,
racer