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racer

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  1. OK... so I've been a little out of the loop lately... but what the heck? I step out for a cuppa and when I get back ... lol.

     

    I haven't kept up with racing since 03/04, I guess. You'd think I fell asleep under a tree in the Catskills for twenty years or something. I only recently started catching GP/WSB races again after some cool dude turned me onto torrent protocol and the world of online underground video. (After picking up an S-video cable at Radio Shack, I'm thinking of canceling my local cable...lol.) Perhaps it's time I renew my subscription to RRW or at least check the news on their website once in while if I intend to engage in conversation without sounding like I've been living in, well... New Zealand. Again.

     

    The "scene" in NZ is small, yet, it produces riders like Aaron Slight, Simon Crafar, Andy Stroud, Bruce Anstey and Shaun Harris (ETC) and builders/racers like Burt Munro and John Britten. Not to mention Bruce McClaren, Richard Pearse, Bill Hamilton or even Sir Edmund Hillary for that matter. I mean, the population of the entire country only broke 4 million a couple of years ago with the influx of Asian immigrants to the Auckland area. Is there a higher "per capita" producer of great racers or builders? Must be something in the water. Or the fact that they are separated by a lot of water from the rest of the world which has bred innovation and adaptability into the culture perhaps.

     

    Anyway... I'm downloading Forbidden Kingdom for my Sunday feature and copped a copy of the '06 Ulster GP while I'm waiting.

     

    Thanks for the info.

     

    BH

  2. Actually, that was an awesome race.

    Honestly, most of the Superstock 1000 Cup races are nearly as exciting. Even the one from last year at Silverstone in the rain was good. I think B-Boz is right about suggesting the DMG use the same classes as World Superbike. How would anybody here in the states know if they never see those races which I think is a real shame. (Although I think DMG got it right by including the rider in the minimum weights)

     

    I've been watching that bit of Corti over and over again analyzing his body positioning...

     

    Who is DMG?

     

    I heard an inside rumor in the grapevine at work today (Kawasaki Rep) that AMA Pro-Racing is doing away with 600 Supersport altogether next year to be replaced with a 600 Superbike or Formula type class. "Anything goes" type of thing...? Sounds exciting!

  3. OK, can see them. The tanks on the Ducs are not quite the same as the modern Jap bikes, and not as easy to hold on and lock on with that outside leg (like you worked on in the Lean Bike. If you are racing that thing, you might consider some Stomp Grip, or Tech Spec.

     

    C

    refresh my memory on the high side knee placement please. you tuck the high side knee into the tank as the low side knee comes out. And do you press on the outside toe to drive the knee into the tank? thanks.

     

     

    Hey Martys,

     

    Yep, you got it right. Drive your high side knee into the tank by pressing your toes on the peg for leverage. And, like Cobie said, Stompgrip pads will help you to lock on better.

     

    Going off-topic... that is a beeeautiful Duck you have there! Can you tell us a little more about it, please?

     

     

    Thanks,

     

    BH

  4. 272182864hdwwrofu1nl1.th.jpg

    This is a typical Pacific Northwest late March Adrenaline Freaks trackday. Gotta love playin in the snow!

     

    Niiiiiice!!!

     

    I've run practice in the snow at Grattan and Loudon a couple of times myself. One time at Grattan, practice was called when it began to stick and we (the WERA officials) spent an hour or so running laps in our vans and cars the next morning in an attempt to clear an inch of snow and ice from the surface. When it became obvious that our efforts were in vain and we wouldn't be able to race our motorcycles, the track clearing effort devolved into an impromptu open class van race. We (Rich Graver, Jim Sublet, myself and others) found it hysterically funny when Evelyn tried to black flag us after about fifty laps and nobody came in. One way or another, we were going racing and nobody was going to stop us! LOL!

     

    Thanks for the snow photo! I'd forgotten how much fun WERA racing can be!

  5. I dont have loads of track experience like most of you guys but my favourite track is the nurburgring nordshliefe in germany, its 14 miles long with 73 corners. they used to hold gp's on it, I have a dvd of Kenny Roberts winning world titles there in 1978 and 1980.

     

    Riding the Nurburgring north loop (nordshliefe?) on any race bike and breaking the "century" (100 mph average) racing a 125 at the Isle of Man are among the top ten of my "must do before I die" list (along with orbiting Earth in a spaceship). I really envy riders who live close enough to make studying The Ring and Isle of Man an ongoing life-long project.

  6. Not Sears. Street of Willow turn 3. Walked away, but bruised or cracked a rib. My ego was hurt more than anything else.

     

    Ouch! I'll try not to make you laugh.

     

    I crashed there before doing the EXACT SAME THING (wrong thing that is). I guess that makes me a really slow learner.

     

    Really? Maybe you just had too many heat cycles on your tires.... (KIDDING, KIDDING, KIDDING! LOL!)

     

     

    Mid Ohio is a great track. Yeah turn 10 gives me the willies too. The track is WAY better without the patches. Although, you can still feel the bike move around if you find the old seam. Doesn't compromise the grip though. Kinda like when a freeway seam pulls the bike around.

     

    Mid-Ohio was the second track I ever rode (with CSS on a 250 Ninja) after riding the 600 Ninja at CSS/Watkins Glen for my first ever track riding experience (and scaring the living piss out of myself... LOL!). I rode the 600 several more times with the school at Mid-Ohio along with spectating and cornerworking and then racing my 400 and 125's there. Due to those experiences in my youth (especially with the school), Mid-Ohio continues to hold a very special place in my heart. It's still one of my favorite (and most challenging) tracks to ride and spectate. I can't wait to check it out with the new pavement!

     

    Get well soon!

     

    Cheers,

    BH

  7. Back in the early/mid 1980's, I lived out on the east end of Long Island, New York while attending college prior to my first racetrack rides with the CSS. Bridgehampton Raceway was temporarily closed and AMARR was on hiatus at the time. However, there was a north/south four lane (William Floyd Parkway) built essentially for access to Calverton Naval Air Station and Brookhaven National Laboratory extending from the Shoreham Nuclear Power Plant on the north shore to Smith's Point State Park beaches on the south shore that was basically deserted 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. There were/are three cloverleafs, two of which connect the LIE (I-495) and the Southern State Parkway, two very busy freeways, however, the third connects to State Rte 25, better known as Middle Country Rd. An apporopriate name as it was, comparatively, a deserted country road at that point and perfectly made for endless hours of private practice (both ways) on clean, barely worn concrete cloverleaf. (Yes, we were crazy.)

     

    I started out riding a GPz550 on that cloverleaf before trading up to a new, cutting edge, state of the art FZ600. Ahhh... those were the halcyon days... a couple hours on the cloverleaf and off to Smith's Point beach to meet girls... then a pulse raising blast (hopefully two up with a new friend) to the beach house (shared with two schoolmates) on Creek Rd for drinks on the beach deck with a view of the pretty lights at the nuclear power plant in the evening... sometimes followed by skinny dipping in the Sound after midnight. We never could be sure if our glowing skin was due to the moonlight... or radioactivity... lol.

     

    Thanks for bringing up the cloverleafs. I'd forgotten all about that. ;)

  8. Silliness, like beauty and traction, is in the eye of the beholder.

     

    That said, rubber hoses couldn't get me to divulge the things I do to add value and adventure to the straighter sections of my life's highway... lol.

     

    Seriously, the same things apply to every corner... rp's, turn point, throttle control, etc. Just remember how slippery some intersections are and leave yourself room to make changes in case of the unforseen oncoming idiot, ie, I wouldn't be committing myself to any knee dragging through left turn lane hot zones.

     

    And, though I think a relative sense of speed (faster/slower) will be most valuable at the track, I always try to sense aircraft take-off speed without looking at the instruments. Of course, being able to feel the aerodynamics in the seat of my pants helps.

  9. Hey Paul,

     

    I have two words for you: "track walk".

     

    I find it much easier to locate and identify physical features for potential RP's at a new track while walking the track or riding it on my bicycle. Searching off track or off line for visual details is difficult and distracting if I split my attention at speed while still learning where the track goes.

     

    Also, surface imperfections like bumps or camber changes that might be almost impossible to precisely locate or notice at speed become obvious while walking the track.

     

    That said, using your "wide view" to see the big picture at speed is also helpful to "notice" things without losing your focus while looking through the turn, etc.

     

    What page of TOTW does Keith say to downshift before braking? I can't find it.

     

    Cheers,

    racer

  10. For sure when pushing it TC (throttle control) takes more attention. One rule that doesn't get as much notice is TC rule number #2 in Twist 2. I've started paying more attention to this aspect lately, both when and how.

     

    I'm gonna be mean and let you guys find it :)

     

    C

     

    "Throttle control rule number two: in any fast entry turn, calculate the roll-off as carefully as you would a roll-on." (p.30)

     

    I have been focusing on turn in and will work on braking next time out. I had been worried about tucking the front so I was hesitant about trail braking into the corner. I watched the AMA races this weekend and paid close attention to the use of the brake in the turns. I can see to be fast, trail braking is a must. So I guess turn in and trail braking will be something I will have to work on.

    Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought TC rule #2 applied to those sweepers where you don't need to get on the brakes. Just roll off a bit before rolling back on. No?

     

    Paul

     

    Hi Paul,

     

    I'm not sure why fossilfuel quoted my reply to Cobie in his comment, but, I don't think he was responding to TC Rule #2.

     

    In any case...

     

    Yes, TC Rule #2 is applied to "fast entry" turns such as sweepers or carousels where you don't use the brakes very much and might not need to use them at all. In these types of turns, throttle control can be the sole method to reduce speed yet retain more entry speed and carry more overall speed throughout the turn by simply feathering the throttle a bit so the suspension remains in a more balanced state... as opposed to "charging in", rolling off (and/or braking lightly) and then accelerating again which unbalances the suspension to a greater degree creating less optimum conditions for max traction, hence, less speed. To quote Keith on page 30 of Twist II:

     

    "In any turn (real braking turns excepted) where you are tempted to chop the throttle and/or use the brakes lightly, look at it with a suspicious eye and see if good throttle control won't gain an even better result."

     

    So, assuming you need to reduce some speed but not very much (ie. you can't stay WFO, but, you aren't using much brake or any brake at all), by laying off the brake and smoothly rolling "out" a bit without rolling "off" (or closing the throttle completely), or, in fact, by rolling out as little as possible and/or spreading less roll out over a greater distance by rolling out earlier to stay as close to 50/50 (or 60/40) as possible, you can carry more overall speed throughout the process because the suspension remains at (or closer to) optimum balance for max traction.

     

    Still too wordy, but... does that make sense to you?

     

    ---------------------

     

    As to fossilfuel's idea that trailbraking is "a must to be fast"... it has been explained here many times by Keith and crew (and racers who actually ride fast as opposed to merely talk about riding fast after watching others do it on TV), that until you are already fast without trailbraking, trying to use it as a way to be fast will be counter-productive to your laptimes and detrimental to your learning curve. Keith used the analogy of building a house and one tool among many in your toolbox. I say trailbraking is one small specialized tool for special circumstances in a big box full of broad foundational or fundamental tools. It is NOT a foundational or fundamental skill. And it is definitely NOT "a must to be fast". It is a limited tool for limited circumstances.

     

    IMO, aside from certain types of turns, trailbraking is a risky way to find about 1% of being fast. Until you are already 99% fast without it, focusing on trailbraking risks shortchanging the development of your real MUST skills like quick turn in, body position and getting back on the gas as early as possible to maintain optimum suspension balance. These are some MUST skills to master before you experiment with trailbraking as an alternate way to find the last 1%.

     

     

    Cheers,

    racer

  11. I haven't ridden on the Michelin's for quite a while (and none of the one's referenced), and don't track them as well as the Dunlops, can't claim to be much of an expert there. What I've noticed (and talked to our fastest coach/rider about--Will) is that when the Dunlops go off, what is lost is drive grip more than cornering grip.

    Most of my "incidents" with ten plus heat cycle "worn" race compound DOT tires were, in fact, losing the rear on the gas accelerating mid-corner. But, a couple of them were also pushing the front. However, I only fell once and it was by losing the front mid-corner in turn four(?) "keyhole" at Mid-Ohio, just before the drop off. You remember what that feels like... don't you Cobie? ;)

     

     

    ETA: Prior to losing the front in T4, I had received a big warning by losing the rear and getting very sideways over the crest of T10 into thunder alley and consciously backing off my pace. Dale Quarterly was right behind me when I fell in T4 and came to me in the pits afterward to ask what had happened. He said he couldn't see me do anything wrong and I was going relatively slow. I told him the only thing I could figure was too many heat cycles. He nodded knowingly and replied, "you can't cheat the tire man".

     

    To be fair, this was years before Mid-Ohio was repaved and the poly/concrete patches played a big part of line choice and available traction.

  12. I haven't ridden on the Michelin's for quite a while (and none of the one's referenced), and don't track them as well as the Dunlops, can't claim to be much of an expert there. What I've noticed (and talked to our fastest coach/rider about--Will) is that when the Dunlops go off, what is lost is drive grip more than cornering grip.

    Most of my "incidents" with ten plus heat cycle "worn" race compound DOT tires were, in fact, losing the rear on the gas accelerating mid-corner. But, a couple of them were also pushing the front. However, I only fell once and it was by losing the front mid-corner in turn four(?) "keyhole" at Mid-Ohio, just before the drop off. You remember what that feels like... don't you Cobie? ;)

     

    When Will was chasing the championships here (and he won all 5 he entered), he told me that used tires compared to new (this is a broad spectrum, I realize) were worth about a second.

    Yeah... not sure what he meant by "used" there. But, I can't imagine that he meant 38 heat cycles. In my own experience (I've never contested a complete championship, but, I do have a couple boxes full of club/regional level podium trophies and consistent top five national finishes from fifteen years ago), 0-5 heat cycles compared to 8-10 heat cycles on publically available DOT race compound was probably worth about one second.

  13. Hey JR,

     

    Is this the link you were referring to?

     

    http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.php?showtopic=877

     

    (Great article from Keith... as usual.)

     

     

    I've been busy learning a new job and adapting to a radically new sleep schedule (takes a bit longer than it used to at my age) and this is the first chance I have had to get up here in a while. Along with studying new product line material for my job, I have been using my limited free time to memorize my borrowed copy of Twist II (before I have to give it back) to clear the cobwebs, get up to speed and be able to contribute more effectively here.

     

    Again, I acknowledge and wholeheartedly agree that "feeling" for available traction is a critical skill at anytime on any tire in any state of wear.

     

    That said...

     

    My own experience riding/racing on DOT racing tires ended in around 1995. And the last time I raced regularly on any tire/compound was around 1999. And, although I rode the "sport compound" (extra sticky) Metzlers on my street bike in the mid-1990's, I don't know for certain how that compound would compare to the current "dual" compound (for street and track) Dunlops or Michelin Pilots. I don't suppose it is out of the realm of possiblity that DOT tire compounds have changed or maybe even improved just a little bit since then... I suppose.

     

    My original goal in this thread was to point to some differences between "dual" and "full race" compound for novice track riders. And attempt to highlight that difference with an eye toward practicality and safety. However, I look forward to updating my personal perceptions ... soon.

     

     

     

    Best regards,

    BH

  14. It is cool when the best guys in the world still screw around.

     

    Like Will tugging on Peter's elbow as he passed him this past Tuesday :)

    oh, that was funny. I was right behind them when will did that. Looked like he startled peter pretty good there.

     

     

    My favorite Ballis-trick was reaching over and hitting the kill switch as he passed.

  15. Hi JR,

     

    I agree that we have been discussing apples and oranges and I have repeatedly attempted to highlight that precise fact by harping on the qualification of my own remarks vis a vis... FULL RACE COMPOUND and AT RACING SPEEDS.

     

    Now, let's be clear and talk about reality...

     

    The average bell curve of student riders at CSS probably puts the average free lap time at the school somewhere around 20-30 seconds (or about 30%) off a qualifying race pace. Or to put it more precisely: Qualifying race pace is between 7.5% to 10% of the pole time at a national/international type of event and 10-12% (or sometimes as high as 15%) for a club (if it is enforced at all there).

     

    That means if the pole time at Laguna for the AMA 600 SS race is something like a 1:30 (Doug Chandler took pole with about a 1:31 the last time I raced there in 1998, it is surely below that now), then the last place on the 600 grid will be no slower than a 1:39 or maybe a 1:37 or even a 1:35 at FIM events. I'm guessing your "fast" students might be breaking 2:00. Maybe. Perhaps as fast as 1:55. And while the occasional racer who attends your school may go faster, that is the exception, not the rule.

     

    In any case, by definition, "racing speed" on a 600 at Laguna is no slower than about a 1:37 or 1:39 lap. By definition, slower than that is not racing speed.

     

    OK?

     

    Now, with all due respect, your perceptions of your available traction as Camier rode around the outside of you at Sears Point or even the fact that he did ride around you is not actually relevant to anything ... except your perceptions. There is absolutely zero hard data in that anecdote.

     

    What laptimes were you turning? What laptime was Camier turning? "Faster than you" in this context does not constitute anything truly meaningful as an argument to my point(s).

     

    And, frankly, that sort of non-specific vaguery, if presented as argument, amount to characterization and "spin"... which is why I blew off this discussion. That and utterly non-responsive or on point replies to my questions attempting to clarify that the "major points" being made were apples to my oranges and did not need to be framed as refuting or contradictory to the well-known standard data I presented to be correct or valid in their own right.

     

    Look, I can see how this is probably a real "hot button" topic at the school and that the issue is probably brought up everytime somebody crashes one of your student bikes. But... that is a very different issue. I mean... seriously.

     

    Does good riding technique present less stress to the tires? Of course it does. Does the student who throws it away turning 2:00 laps at Laguna deserve his crash deposit back? Probably not. But even that is subjective. And I am not really talking about subjective perceptions or school pace in any case. Dunlop Racing specifies 10 heat cycles for race compound DOT tires... for RACING. Period. Full stop. End of story. My own extensive experience AT RACING SPEEDS (ie. circa 1:40 or better at Laguna) very much supports that. Experiences at like 70% race pace have NOTHING to do with what I am talking about. There is no "heat cycle dilemma" here. You can run 10/10 race pace on cycle 10. You are a fool to try to run 10/10 on cycle 11. Period. That is my point. That is my only point. Tire technology.

     

    Riding technology is your deal. And what Lonnie or Camier can "get away with" is irrelevant. My rider, Midge Smart, got stuck running a set of rain tires on a drying track when everyone else ran slicks one weekend. He led from the gren flag and didn't fall to second place until the last lap. Astounding. That doesn't mean the tires were OK. Eh? They were melted to the carcass. Was that amazing? Sure. Would you want to try it? Probably not. The point is that what Midge did speaks to his riding skill, it does not speak to the reality of the tire.

     

    The idea that race compound tires lose grip in a nice smooth arc or curve a little bit each cycle over the life of the caracss/tread is simply not accurate and moreover that data is not necessary to make the point that race take offs can be ridden safely at slower speeds. Or that riding "smooth" will give you better warning of when you are exceeding the tire's limits.

     

    The bottom line is that my goal was to provide solid accurate data to novice track riders doing public type track days so that they are aware of the reality and can make a more informed decision of what tires to run and when to start being more careful if they do choose race compound. And maybe someone will avoid crashing (or dying) in pursuit of a faster lap. That does not take away from anyone else's major points which are just as valid on their face ... as mine are valid.

     

    Respectfully,

    racer

  16. Racer,

     

    I have one point major point that I was trying to make: it hasn't been my experience working as a coach at the schools that tires fall off so drastically in a lap or 2 or 3 that one will end up on his head--one gets some warning. I totally agree that one should have good tires, we work hard on that point at the school. I've also heard riders blame tires and suspension for dramas and crashes that were really the fault of poor riding technique.

     

    Make sense?

     

    C

     

    What kind of tires (brand, model and compound) does the CSS run on its student bikes?

  17. The primary advantage of a "GP" shift pattern is easier/faster upshifts which equal faster overall acceleration leading to a faster lap. Hence, why it is used for racing ... as a tool to go faster. In a nutshell, it is easier and faster to push down on the shift lever than to get your foot under it and pull up.

     

    A secondary advantage is not needing to lift the bike to make room to get your foot under the shifter on the rare occasions that one needs to upshift while leaned all the way over on the left side. Shifting at max lean and racing speeds can be a risky proposition as traction will be limited in that situation and even the smoothest shift will create a suspension imbalance due to a moment of on and off the gas. (What is the first rule of throttle control?) Most racers will short shift prior to a long corner rather than attempt to upshift mid-turn. Some exceptions are VERY long sweepers that simply cannot be handled any other way. Shifting mid-corner is a tool of last resort in a rare circumstance.

     

    On the flip side, there is a trade-off with the "GP" shift pattern in that downshifting is slower and more difficult due to the comparative weakness of the muscles of the shin combined with the limited range of motion of the ankle joint. But no more so than upshifting with the street pattern, hence, that trade-off is acceptable to the vast majority of racers (except Matt Mladin?) as quick/easy upshifts are more critical to the ultimate goal of turning a faster lap than quick/easy downshifts are.

     

    (Perhaps Matt's ankle joint was injured and he has even less strength and range of motion than most people... like me? However, I still prefer the GP shift pattern for racing. Even if I do look like Scott Russel getting my leg gangled out to an angle where I can jam those backshifts... lol. In fact, if you watch closely, you might notice a few other racers on TV cocking their leg out to pull backshifts from the hip.)

     

    If a rider is already accustomed to using the "street" pattern, the only temporary drawback I see in switching to the "reverse" pattern is the time it takes to get it "hardwired" into the brain for reacting in the heat of the moment to a high intensity racing situation. For instance, at first, during a missed shift or not quite finished downshifting situation due to a rushed turn entry, it is not uncommon to find oneself grabbing a couple of upshifts instead of downshifts mid-corner. Very embarrassing. Especially when the furious arm motions of then grabbing four downshifts on the exit of a turn are so visible while being passed by three other bikes you just spent two laps getting around... on national TV... lol.

     

    I would guess that the "street" pattern was chosen as a standard to help keep the ideas of "UP" shifting and "DOWN" shifting correlated with the actual real world directions of "UP" and "DOWN" as neither pattern has any real advantage from an engineering standpoint. It is just as easy to create a linkage for one as the other. That said, frame clearance can sometimes be an issue when converting some street bikes that are not designed to accomodate the "reversed" pattern. I recall some very bent linkages to clear the old FZR frames back in the day.

  18. Racer,

     

    I was simply commenting on some that I have heard complain that the reason they crashed was due to tires, when technique was really what was missing/not used/abused.

     

    Oh. It sounded like you were contradicting standard data on race compound tires that have gone beyond ten heat cycles.

     

    With solid technique, tires just don't all of a sudden give way, have a tremendously different amount of traction from one lap to the next. With solid technique, you get warning, usually lots of it.

     

    "Tremendously different amount..." ? How do you define "tremendous"? Oh yes... a race compound Sportmax past ten heat cycles most definitely will just suddenly give way at less than a "tremendous" difference in speed from the previous lap... at racing speeds.

     

    In any case, I'm still not sure what tire or what compound or how many heat cycles you are speaking of here. And, it still sounds like you are intending to contradict standard data. I am speaking specifically about a full race compound Dunlop Sportmax with more than ten heat cycles on it. Personally, the characteristic of how a tire that is already toast continues to degrade doesn't seem of much import to me for the reasons stated above, ie. I don't do it. I like being alive.

     

    However, in my own extensive experience at racing speeds with Dunlop Sportmax tires, the difference between heat cycle ten and eleven is exactly like a light switch. And, after that, grip degrades ongoing from lap to lap. What the tire will handle on lap three it won't handle on lap ten. I don't like to admit that it took 3-4 incidents with a Dunlop Sportmax tire on heat cycle eleven that put or nearly put me on my head at racing speeds; but, I am one of those people who needs to find the limits for myself. Just because the Dunlop racing rep tells me, "no more than ten heat cycles" doesn't mean I will believe it because in the back of my mind I will be thinking he might just be saying that to sell more tires.

     

    In one of my earlier posts I commneted that Lonnie did like 30 days on a front tire. The tire was for sure not as grippy as new, but Lonnie is one of my fastest guys and regularly takes and trains racers at the schools. He got away with this because of his good technique, rock solid fundamentals.

     

    So, on some unknown tire of some unkown compound, Lonnie "got away with" doing "like thirty days on a front".

     

    Got away with? Implying he was doing something he shouldn't. Hm. Kudos to Lonnie. And... ?

     

    Are you, in your position of authority with the school, actually advocating that others with far less skill and technique than Lonnie do the same thing while attempting to develop their skills, ie. making progressive improvements from lap to lap, perhaps tremendous leaps of improvement as a particular skill sinks in? Don't you advertise just that sort of tremendous improvement by practicing the techniques you teach?

  19. I will say that back in the day riding Metzler bias ply or Dunlp K591 bias ply's, the cutoff point seemed less precise and more progressive. But, unless tire technology at the club racing level has significantly changed again in the past few years, that is no longer the case.

  20. For sure it is a good idea to have good tires on the bike, no one would argue that. With good clean technique one can find the limits of the tire without having to risk life and limb. It's really the same skills with warming up a cold tire--progressively bringing the speed up to build some head in the tire. At the school for example, it's just not possible to even consider heat warmers, either on the coaches bikes, school bikes. I didn't even use them the last spring race I did, and it was pretty cold in the mornings.

     

    I think some guys use this as an excues: "I crashed because of my tires." Well, I don't think they go off that fast, that hasn't been my experience with them. UNLESS, I change something, like adding more throttle, addling a little more lean angle, adding some more entry speed. But from just one lap to the next, I don't think it's a light switch.

     

    I'm not really clear what you are saying here, Cobie. Are you talking about full-race compound DOT racing tires like the Dunlop Sportmax? And what exactly is it you are saying about them? Are you saying that they are good for racing past ten heat cycles? Are you saying that riding on racing tires beyond their manufacturer recommended heat cycle limit is ok as long as you "are smooth"?

     

    For full-race compound DOT tires, like the Dunlop Sportmax, ten heat cycles is it. The tire is useless for racing speed or anything close to it, not even race practice. Perhaps fine to go burn up on the street for the few miles you'll get from the tread, but, dangerous for knee dragging at speed.

     

    I do not take this matter lightly and do not think it is OK to just let it go by saying it is a matter of opinion. I think we need a definitive answer. And I think there is one as Dunlop tire representatives state ten heat cycles as the upper limit and any racer will tell you that ten heat cycles is it. My personal experience is that heat cycle number eleven will put you on your head.

     

    But, please, do not take my word for it. Ask a Dunlop race tire rep you would trust... like Bru.

     

    steve@dunlopracing.com

     

    http://www.dunlopracing.com/rts_home.htm

     

    Dunlop/Race Tire Services Tech line: 615-641-3323

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