Mashuri Posted December 31, 2003 Report Share Posted December 31, 2003 I attended this school back in 1995. Twist II had already been released but Keith had a different "level" format back then. We went over SR's and how to overcome them, body positioning, corner entry speed, etc. at Streets of Willow. Since then I have been using Twist II as my "bible" and have been adopting its teachings at my track days. I called to enroll in Level 2 but was told I would have to start over, even though Keith still teaches based on Twist II. I feel like I'm being told that my class in 1995 was a complete waste of money and I have to start over again. Level 1 will not be worth anywhere near $350 for me. Maybe $50 or so but most of what's being taught there I already learned in 1995. So did Keith really not know how to teach beginners back then, requiring me to start over, or will I just be throwing money away on the current Level 1?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Kane Posted December 31, 2003 Report Share Posted December 31, 2003 Mashuri, I cannot speak to your retention capabilities from a class you attended almost nine years ago but even if it is absolute, the art/science of riding is an evolving process. IMHO, what you learned from CSS back then has evolved as almost of decade of teaching has tested the theories, refined their stong points and discarded their less significant ones since you rode there last. As a student who has participated in almost a dozen CSS events in just the past three years, its been my experience that CSS's program is firmly rooted in the Twists (vol I & II) AND the Soft Science; but it is also a work in progress. It is constantly being tested by Keith and his team as new technologies and techniques emerge as evidenced by Keith's recent writings on Body Steering followed by his experiments in the Gyroscopic forces in cornering. If for no other reason than tire develoment, suspensions, or that new 600's will devour a '95 liter bike -things change. In light of how much it costs to put new tires on your bike, you might want to consider getting a solid foundation of where the School is in 2004, and not where it was in 1995. ...Just my humble opinion. Kevin Kane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mashuri Posted December 31, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 31, 2003 Well there is a good way to figure out my retention and perhaps what else I have gleaned form Twist I, II, Soft Science (yes, I have all 3 books) and my experience of applying these over the last 9 years. It can't be too difficult to give me a test or quiz to see where I'm really at. Does that sound reasonable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest_Kevin Kane Posted December 31, 2003 Report Share Posted December 31, 2003 Mashuri, Why ask for a test? If you are satisfied that you know their curriculum, why bother going to their school? My experience with the school is that a student determines for themselves whether or not they have learned anything. There is no test at the end of the day nor are grades given out, unless you consider lap times a grade. I think lap times are a pretty effective way to measure if I have improved (learned) at all but that's just me. I will tell you that no one is measured by whether they are book smart. Personally, I am not that smart and clearly not a very good rider so I keep going back to school... but you are more fortunate than me. Save your money. Kevin Kane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mashuri Posted December 31, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 31, 2003 Mashuri, Why ask for a test? If you are satisfied that you know their curriculum, why bother going to their school? My experience with the school is that a student determines for themselves whether or not they have learned anything. There is no test at the end of the day nor are grades given out, unless you consider lap times a grade. I think lap times are a pretty effective way to measure if I have improved (learned) at all but that's just me. I will tell you that no one is measured by whether they are book smart. Personally, I am not that smart and clearly not a very good rider so I keep going back to school... but you are more fortunate than me. Save your money. Kevin Kane You have completely misunderstood my post. I'm wondering if I know enough curriculum to skip Level 1. There are three more levels to go after that. Your statement that a "student determines for themselves whether or not they have learned anything" is over-simplified. It's a two-way street. It's up to me to pay attention and apply what I'm being taught and it's up to the instructor to teach me something I don't already know. Make sense? Yes, I'm book-smart but, in case you didn't read, I did take Keith's class before. Now either Keith didn't really know what to teach beginners back then or I will be pretty much wasting my money on a level 1 class. Those are the two options I see right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest_motorthings Posted December 31, 2003 Report Share Posted December 31, 2003 mashuri - i understand your point, but the important thing to realize is the difference between book knowledge and ability to apply that knowledge at speed on the track. Believe me, i read totw 1 and 2 over 30 times each, before almost every weekend i raced for four years. I was an expert level racer with WERA, and had the book knowledge, but i assure you i could not apply it all well. If everything you needed was in a book, Keith, and a lot of us who teach, would be out of jobs. I didn't expect to get much out of level 1 when i took it last year, but i was amazed to find out how much i still needed to learn how to apply what i thought i "knew". I was also impressed with how the subjects were taught (not straight out of the books) and how much extra material was added and how it helped fill out my understanding and ability to apply the techniques. I went on to level 2 and 3 and had the same experience (although i did learn things i hadn't even heard of in the later levels). "Knowing the curriculum" is meaningless until you consistently are able to apply it in practice, and I would bet that after 9 years you could still find a great deal of worth in the level 1 class. I think too, that Keith offers a guarantee of sorts (couldn't find the text on the website, but have seen it before) about all students getting a worthwhile learning experience. Maybe one of the instructors can rattle off some names of top level roadracers who have come into the school and started with level 1 just like everyone else...i know there are a few of them, and they are probably a little faster than you (guessing). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mashuri Posted December 31, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 31, 2003 mashuri - i understand your point, but the important thing to realize is the difference between book knowledge and ability to apply that knowledge at speed on the track. Believe me, i read totw 1 and 2 over 30 times each, before almost every weekend i raced for four years. I was an expert level racer with WERA, and had the book knowledge, but i assure you i could not apply it all well. If everything you needed was in a book, Keith, and a lot of us who teach, would be out of jobs. I didn't expect to get much out of level 1 when i took it last year, but i was amazed to find out how much i still needed to learn how to apply what i thought i "knew". I was also impressed with how the subjects were taught (not straight out of the books) and how much extra material was added and how it helped fill out my understanding and ability to apply the techniques. I went on to level 2 and 3 and had the same experience (although i did learn things i hadn't even heard of in the later levels). "Knowing the curriculum" is meaningless until you consistently are able to apply it in practice, and I would bet that after 9 years you could still find a great deal of worth in the level 1 class. I think too, that Keith offers a guarantee of sorts (couldn't find the text on the website, but have seen it before) about all students getting a worthwhile learning experience. Maybe one of the instructors can rattle off some names of top level roadracers who have come into the school and started with level 1 just like everyone else...i know there are a few of them, and they are probably a little faster than you (guessing). I agree there is a difference between book knowledge and actual personal teaching with physical application. The point I don't seem to be getting across is I TOOK KEITH CODE'S CLASS AT THE BEGINNER LEVEL ALREADY. I have already shelled out my money and received instruction from them before. That's why I'm concerned I won't get much out of a level 1 class or, if I still have much to learn in today's format, that I wasted my money on poor instruction back in 1995. Perhaps the guarantee is my possible redemption. If I go and find that I'm basically being taught stuff I was already taught by them before will I get my money back? Has anyone ever requested this before and have they actually received their refund? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Kane Posted December 31, 2003 Report Share Posted December 31, 2003 Mashuri, I don't think that you will find the answer you are looking for here because it sounds like you are more interested in the "transaction" of attending School rather than what the School can offer you as a rider. You wrote "That's why I'm concerned I won't get much out of a level 1 class or, if I still have much to learn in today's format, that I wasted my money on poor instruction back in 1995. Perhaps the guarantee is my possible redemption." Do you think Wayne Rainey or Eddie Lawson asked Keith for a guarantee before they hooked up with him? I would not pay much heed to what I have posted in these exchanges because I have never raced - but I would re-read Motorthings post if I were you. If he was able to benefit from attending Level I last season and he "was an expert level racer with WERA", there has to be a learning opportunity for you here as well. Motorthings goes on to say "I was also impressed with how the subjects were taught (not straight out of the books) and how much extra material was added and how it helped fill out my understanding and ability to apply the techniques." I can say that his summary is consistent with my experience at CSS, but your results may vary. Kevin Kane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyRobshaw Posted January 1, 2004 Report Share Posted January 1, 2004 Mashuri I sense the frustration here. It's not for me to argue the returns policy of the CSS, that is between you and them, but for a school that is structured so deliberately (and so well) it is possible, isn't it, that there are fundamental elements that the school wants to instill that may have faded in your own mind over 9 years? Just possible? Level 1 drills underpin all the other levels from an educational standpoint as well as being a platform for smooth riding in all other circumstances. I know for a fact I received huge amounts of education in 1995 but if you presented it to me now I may just adopt a blank expression. Level 1 skills are the basic skills for cornering- I use basic in the sense of fundamental, indispensible, and not in a trivialising sense. If you can't specifically get the throttle on, turn the bike quickly and at the right moment then the rest becomes rather a more difficult proposition. The only way to be sure is to do Level 1 and see what you make of it this time. I would All the best JR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanfret Posted January 1, 2004 Report Share Posted January 1, 2004 I am thinking of taking Level I over again. It's been 6 years (maybe more). I forgot pretty much everything. I have to think about it again. I want it to be natural. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mashuri Posted January 2, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2004 Well, I have pretty much resigned myself to taking Level 1 again. The pertinent question I'm asking is how iron-clad the guarantee is. If I feel that I didn't get my money's worth will I get a refund? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keith Code Posted January 4, 2004 Report Share Posted January 4, 2004 Mashuri, Here is the guarantee as printed in our 2003 brochure. We Guarantee Improvement In celebration of our 100,000th student, for 2003 we will offer any student a free school session if they don?t make noticeable improvement. Here are the requirements: 1. Decide to improve your cornering skills and enjoyment. This should be easy. 2. Sign-up and arrive at the track on time for your scheduled date. No stress there. 3. Be on time for all the tech briefings. Not difficult. 4. Pay attention while in them. They are informative so that?s easy. 5. Do the on-track drills discussed in the briefings. The fun part. 6. Follow our simple track etiquette, rules and flags. They?re all about safety, learning and school track manners. Not hard to do. 7. Interact with your instructor. Work with him (or her) and talk to them. In other words simply follow the school?s format as thousands before have done. Keith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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