Pre Corner Slide

[Wippersnapper]

Hi, I want to ask everyone a question. I have gotten into a habbit when approaching a tight corner. What I do is brake hard so that the rear end is light and then down shift a gear or two fast and the rear breaks away sliding just a bit before it catches and builds revs so that the engine speed and the rear wheel speed match. So while the rear is sliding I kind rotate it to the outside of the corner (left for a right hand, right for a left hand) and so that way the front is where I want it and the bike is already pointed towards the outside/exit path of the corner. Is this a bad habbit and/or is this ok to do if you want to go the fastest way around a corner? Thanks

[racer]

Sliding the rear wheel to help turn the bike is a viable technique for some people. Is it the fastest? Again, perhaps, for some people. But it is definitely NOT the standard technique for steering into a corner. I recall Keith covering the technique of sliding the rear wheel into a corner in a series of articles in RRW magazine around 1995 or 1996. He may have covered it again elsewhere. In any case, in my opinion, using the rear brake to effect that slide would be better. First, brake pads are cheaper to replace than clutch plates, sprockets and drive chains when they wear out. More importantly, the rear brake is easier to modulate and control in a consistent, reliable and repeatable fashion.

 

Also, the technique you are using could cause the rear wheel to "lock" and/or "hop"; thereby, unsettling the suspension, upsetting the bike or causing an essentially uncontrollable skid which would be quite a distraction for most riders. At least with the rear brake, you can control exactly when, where and how much you slide the rear wheel.

 

Further, the intended purpose of the engine is to make the rear wheel go faster. The intended purpose of the rear brake is to slow that wheel. By using the engine to skid the rear wheel, you have less overall control of the bike. You cannot accelerate or control the engine and the only way to control or stop the slide is to pull in the clutch, removing the engine from the equation. You must WAIT for the wheel to stop skidding AND the revs to match AND the clutch to stop slipping before you can retake control and start accelerating. ("Waiting" sounds SLOW to me.) Or, if you get into trouble, all you can do is pull in the clutch to free the wheel, stop the skid and hope you have enuf time, attention, and road leftover to coast through the turn. (Yikes!)

 

The alternate method being something like: slowing the bike to the desired speed with the front brake while matching revs by blipping the throttle while backshifting, then, with the bike under complete control, using the rear brake to initiate and control the desired amount of slide, while still having control of the engine to accelerate whenever you choose.

 

In any case, I do not recommend experimenting with or using the "rear slide to turn" technique unless you are already an expert at using the standard method of front brake, throttle "blip" to match revs and countersteering to turn. Sliding the rear into a corner is absolutely NOT a replacement for these standard basic riding skills. Which, of course, may be learned and practiced in detail with highly qualified teachers at a Superbike School session, as well as, studied in Keith's TOTW books.

[Keith Code]

Hi, I want to ask everyone a question. I have gotten into a habbit when approaching a tight corner. What I do is brake hard so that the rear end is light and then down shift a gear or two fast and the rear breaks away sliding just a bit before it catches and builds revs so that the engine speed and the rear wheel speed match. So while the rear is sliding I kind rotate it to the outside of the corner (left for a right hand, right for a left hand) and so that way the front is where I want it and the bike is already pointed towards the outside/exit path of the corner. Is this a bad habbit and/or is this ok to do if you want to go the fastest way around a corner? Thanks

 

Wippersnapper,

 

Even the pros have all but given up on this as a useful technique. It used to be all the rage but it was discarded because it makes the turn entries far more complicated and all the sliding around became distracting to riders actually getting their turn entry speed right. A far more important point than looking cool sliding the back end into turns.

 

You still see some back end movement in some corners for the pros but there are only a few who actually use the technique to get better turn positioning. Forget it as something that is essential to your progress as a rider, you, like the top pros will discard it eventually.

 

Keith

[03tlrmo]

After watching Danny Eslick at laguna sliding like he was on a flat track. It looked cool but not one time did I really see him get ahead by doing that I personally think because they didn't show the replay of his crash but he probably toasted his tires doing that. If you seen the pics of everyones rears that were using proper corner entry techniques I could imagine what his looked like. I told my wife if he keeps that up he's gonna wreck and he did. Like I said it looks cool but it didn't put him in the lead not once.

[Wippersnapper]

Gosh, I thought I had it set up to recieve e-mails upon a reply but alas it did not work or I had the settings wrong. Anyways, thanks for the input. I made this post a few weeks ago and (in my mind) have improved in riding quite a bit since then. I have figgured out that you guys are correct. I was just downshifting to initiate the slide for fun and it was just until the engine revs and rear wheel revs matched. My '84 Interceptor does not have enough power to spin the rear comming out of a corner on dry pavement so I slid pre-corner just for fun. Now, I have gotten a little better at using the bake break as mentioned to slide the rear but that is more-so when leaned over just a tad and I don't find that as helpful or safe at the speeds that I want to be safe at. The clutchless up/down shifting just smooths out everything but I can't manage to perfect the downshifts very well. I always seem to make sure that I blip/shift down and try to match revs to make it smooth and at the moment that seems to be taking more time than just droping it down a gear or two with the clutch. However, when in a corner and leaned clutchless has become the prefered. Now I am just rambleing about my passion... Thanks guys for all the advice and recomendations that help me become a better rider.

 

~Wip

[hobot]

Gosh, I thought I had it set up to recieve e-mails upon a reply but alas it did not work or I had the settings wrong. Anyways, thanks for the input. I made this post a few weeks ago and (in my mind) have improved in riding quite a bit since then. I have figgured out that you guys are correct. I was just downshifting to initiate the slide for fun and it was just until the engine revs and rear wheel revs matched. My '84 Interceptor does not have enough power to spin the rear comming out of a corner on dry pavement so I slid pre-corner just for fun. Now, I have gotten a little better at using the bake break as mentioned to slide the rear but that is more-so when leaned over just a tad and I don't find that as helpful or safe at the speeds that I want to be safe at. The clutchless up/down shifting just smooths out everything but I can't manage to perfect the downshifts very well. I always seem to make sure that I blip/shift down and try to match revs to make it smooth and at the moment that seems to be taking more time than just droping it down a gear or two with the clutch. However, when in a corner and leaned clutchless has become the prefered. Now I am just rambleing about my passion... Thanks guys for all the advice and recomendations that help me become a better rider.

 

~Wip

[hobot]

I salute Kieth Code's bravery to allow me to break barriers

into center of gravity pivoting turns, prior to apex let offs

 

It takes thrust and traction to turn hard, brakes are for

saves not going in harder. The only time to use rear

in a turn is if the trail braking save is too late or hits

Gravel and bike suddenly lowsides, STAB the rear like

you were SOMPING your foot down to hold bike up like

a flat tracker, then get off it so enuff resultant hi side

instantly resets ya back to level to get second chance at

some serious undivded one vector stopping straight up

and inline like a stoppie stunter.

 

One other rare occassion of rear brake helping the front in

panic stops is to LOCK both at once and spin bike totally

sideways to motion and stay on em using both side

walls to resist tarmac or pile up loose stuff off track.

LIfe and death barrier riskers may develop this instantly

but some practice on bicyce or atleast forethoght helps

to realize bikes can twist on Center of Gravity, besides

just at front or just at rear... so>>>

 

Axioms to phantom phantastic phases

 

To turn one must cause a force to act towards the center

of the turn, its radius line, like a rock swung around your

head. Books call this an acceleration vector, as its got

two componets, its direction and its force.

 

Tires and torque supply the force and best force occurs

about 10% tire grind. Less than this is not even in this

disscusstion, more than this is what scares or upsets us.

 

Cycles go thru series of steering phases, depending on the

angle of the rear and the resistence of wheel and crank

sfaft gryo forces. Up to human jogging speeds, straight

steering of front aims the rear to bring rest of bike along.

 

Gryo force becomes significant at human runing speeds.

Turning or leaning a gryo 90' to its rotation makes it

develope opposite forces to resist this change very fast.

So we lean into turn radius to overcome this. This is easy

to do up to horse race speeds, by mere leans of body, but

only If fork is not trapped by a damper so free to just dolly

wheel, it just naturally begins to self countersteer.

 

Once into fast bird flight speeds, gryo force gets too

strong to overcome very fast by mere butt shifts so we

start relying on assisted counter steering of front tire off center

line to allow bike mass falling over to assist aginst gryo's

resistence to changes of angle. Yet this gryo resistence

to change of angle gives a cycle another dimension of

handling over 3 or 4 or more wheeled conveyences.

 

All the above is just to help get REAR's thrust aimed towards

tangent of the turn radius. If powered over 10% grind along

its axis it begins to divide its traction potential in two

directions at once, which don't add back up to a one way

only use of traciton buget, so rear can slide, until you let

off spin out power, which means slowing down the fun or

it can get sideways to line of travel till traction stops being

divided and it hooks back up and on over in worse cases.

 

[below only valid on essentially LEVEL surfaces please]

 

Further conflict arises d/t counter steering is aiming front

away from center of turn and tending to drop front as rear

powering out tends to rise rear, up to point the frame

twists and springs. A skilled pilot can fight this conflict,

easeing in more and more countersteer lean aginst more

and more rear thrust until gryo force simplely tips bike

over thru its midline CoG, so may lever off both tires evenly.

Generally bike occilations over tax one end or the other 1st

but loosing rear out from under is way more forgiveable than

front slip outs.

 

To cut to the chiances, funnest way in and around is to load

the front the least possible, one way is get into best

accelerating gear and about where the early birds are 1st

braking, [or rear braking to get sense of balance for this]

nail it for best acceleration >>> right up to point

of apex flick over, so as lean lowers tire grip, speed and

power is already enough your butt pressure can swing out

rear as if it was on Gravel, but just add more power if lazy,

or more countersteer tip out, if power alone wasn't enough

to get the rear loose so you can swing it at will YET

also loose enough still able to resist/control its swing too.

 

In this fun way to pre-pare a slide for max turn G's, you

must spin the bike on its vertical CoG before you get to

apex, so only a short fast skip of loss of thrust the whole

way around, go in so hard the rear is lowsiding the bike.

 

To save this low side, must re-transition to straight steer.

This both resists rear's lowside by the hi side force and

will aim front back into radius for final leap out of apex,

just as decreasing a radii as you can stand the burn out

dounut at hi G's. Not a long lazy flat track affair.

 

Traction must be treated/creasted as a digital on/off level

to pull this off, slide too far or not enough no fun, but slide

you will if you are seeking limits, till it feels same as a

a flat tire, hi wind gusts or Gravel path antics.

 

hobot