Sliding The Rear In A Corner

[Wippersnapper]

I was riding my dirtbike today (I know, some will say dirtbikes are Satan for riding style on a road bike but I say there are certain aspects that can positively transfer) and it was wet outside, my favorite time to ride. Where I ride there is grass and pretty much grass only. So I was riding my two-stroke leaned over in a corner and was playing with sliding the rear to stear the bike when I noticed a few things that I wanted to share here.

 

Is there a proper was to start the slide? There seemed to be many when the bike was so close to the eadge of traction. I practiced a few:

 

putting a quick little imput throught the handlebars turning into the corner, resulting in moving the rear suddenly and starting the slide

 

bilp the throttle and back off using less to maintain sliding/grip

 

throw the throttle open pretty agresively and go through the corner completly crossed up

 

come on the powerband while accelerating fast

 

and the most interesting one but duh, hip input. I could move or twist my hips to start the slide also.

 

 

Is there a proper way and the advantages of that?

[xtrmln]

I was riding my dirtbike today (I know, some will say dirtbikes are Satan for riding style on a road bike but I say there are certain aspects that can positively transfer) and it was wet outside, my favorite time to ride. Where I ride there is grass and pretty much grass only. So I was riding my two-stroke leaned over in a corner and was playing with sliding the rear to stear the bike when I noticed a few things that I wanted to share here.

 

Is there a proper was to start the slide? There seemed to be many when the bike was so close to the eadge of traction. I practiced a few:

 

putting a quick little imput throught the handlebars turning into the corner, resulting in moving the rear suddenly and starting the slide

 

bilp the throttle and back off using less to maintain sliding/grip

 

throw the throttle open pretty agresively and go through the corner completly crossed up

 

come on the powerband while accelerating fast

 

and the most interesting one but duh, hip input. I could move or twist my hips to start the slide also.

 

 

Is there a proper way and the advantages of that?

I don't have alot of experience with dirt but as far as for on a road bike the key is to approach the loss of traction slowly versus abruptly. It sound like you are pretty much on the money. It sort of depends on where in the turn you want to initiate the slide. For me if for some reason you want to start the slide at turn entry (not really the fastest way through a corner) a more aggresive turn in with a little more aggresive throttle application will get the slide initiated. Once the tire starts to slide you will need to briefly ever so gently pause throttle application as well as stand the bike up a bit to stop the slide from continuing into a lowside. Once you have the tire right on that edge of sliding and gripping you can then get back into the throttle and modulate the slide with a combination of lean angle and throttle application. I can tell you that there is alot less room for error when sliding on pavement versus dirt. I first played with sliding the rear on corner exit rather than on corner entry. Its much easier to overcome the limits of the tire gradually on corner exit rather than on corner entry. Just gradually add more and more throttle while exiting a given corner remember to be in the process of picking the bike up so that you are ready to compensate for the slide (the bike will be making a sharper turn once the rear breaks loose). The key is to be smooth, any sudden abrupt actions could wind you up on your head if your not careful. The only thing that you stated that I think may not be right is trying to use your hips to somehow initiate the slide. Maybe more talented and skilled riders than I might try to input this way but to me its all done with throttle and lean angle.

[Wippersnapper]

Ok thanks. Yes I have a road bike as well and prefer to ride that but I like to play around in the dirt because it doesn't hurt as much to fall off (at least I think, I have not fallen on pavement yet). I read everything you said and was trying to think about it and realized that it is more of a reaction. At first I didn't think I was doing it right on the dirt (it is more or less the same process). Leaned over, start the slide pick up hte bike a bit while spining the wheel and when it is dry getting the oh so loved leaned over whelie. I only listed the hip input because I noticed that when really on the edge of traction, really really on the eadge, a little twist of the hips (reposisitoning of body weight) will cause it to slide. I will try to play more with the other techniques, thanks for the input.

[Balistic]

Ok thanks. Yes I have a road bike as well and prefer to ride that but I like to play around in the dirt because it doesn't hurt as much to fall off (at least I think, I have not fallen on pavement yet). I read everything you said and was trying to think about it and realized that it is more of a reaction. At first I didn't think I was doing it right on the dirt (it is more or less the same process). Leaned over, start the slide pick up hte bike a bit while spining the wheel and when it is dry getting the oh so loved leaned over whelie. I only listed the hip input because I noticed that when really on the edge of traction, really really on the eadge, a little twist of the hips (reposisitoning of body weight) will cause it to slide. I will try to play more with the other techniques, thanks for the input.

 

 

I have experiance sliding both dirt and street bikes and I don't use too many of the same techniques to do it.

 

In the dirt I like to snap the bike down with a steering input while using some rear brake and transition to throttle while the rear is already sliding, or use throttle and at the end of a longer turn and pick the bike like a dirt tracker. Neither are motocross style but I am still trying to get that stuff going.

 

On pavment I only use the throttle and most of the slides I get were not intended but welcome never the less. I get a kick out of drifting street bikes but it very expensive if you have to buy your own tires.

 

Im sure some will think of "drifters" in cars but that is for Moto GP guys. What I mean is just the other side of hooked up before it steps out enough to need an adjustment of the throttle or lean angle to keep it up or "loose" as Nascar guys would put it. to put a number on it 1 to 3 inches out of track at full lean.

will

[Dragon RR]

On the street, I don't think the hip thing is a good idea. You don't want to move around too suddenly or anything because it can seem to get you in trouble quick, you're messing with the suspension as its trying to do its job. I think the action with the handle bars is dangerous also because that can lead to a sudden loss of control too. The smoothest way I've found is just with the throttle. I haven't done it on a track yet and I have a big bike, but I just roll on smoothly to get it to slide a little. Rough pavement, cold roads/tires, and wet conditions are the easiest to play around with it in. It has seemed easier for me to get used to the way the bike feels when I would do it in less-than-perfect conditions. I know it probably sounds stupid, but there was a left turn on brick that I would almost always step it out in when it was raining. It seemed easier to handle because there was a lot less to think about and I could do it at a lot slower speed. But no matter how wet it is out, it can still grab hold all of the sudden on brick, possibly resulting in throwing you over.

I would suggest trying on your bike like this so you can get used to the way the bike feels at a slower speed, and then try using just the throttle at the track when you get comfortable. I think throttle-only would give you the least amount of factors to think about while your doing it.

 

Also, I think riding in the dirt gives you a whole library of information you can use for the street. I mean, Nicky Hayden started out in the dirt, and look at where he is now.

[Wippersnapper]

On the street, I don't think the hip thing is a good idea. You don't want to move around too suddenly or anything because it can seem to get you in trouble quick, you're messing with the suspension as its trying to do its job. I think the action with the handle bars is dangerous also because that can lead to a sudden loss of control too. The smoothest way I've found is just with the throttle. I haven't done it on a track yet and I have a big bike, but I just roll on smoothly to get it to slide a little. Rough pavement, cold roads/tires, and wet conditions are the easiest to play around with it in. It has seemed easier for me to get used to the way the bike feels when I would do it in less-than-perfect conditions. I know it probably sounds stupid, but there was a left turn on brick that I would almost always step it out in when it was raining. It seemed easier to handle because there was a lot less to think about and I could do it at a lot slower speed. But no matter how wet it is out, it can still grab hold all of the sudden on brick, possibly resulting in throwing you over.

I would suggest trying on your bike like this so you can get used to the way the bike feels at a slower speed, and then try using just the throttle at the track when you get comfortable. I think throttle-only would give you the least amount of factors to think about while your doing it.

 

Also, I think riding in the dirt gives you a whole library of information you can use for the street. I mean, Nicky Hayden started out in the dirt, and look at where he is now.

 

 

Not to start any riffs but I am a Rossi fan. I think he is the best one out there but all of them are far far above us all. I wish to ride in 125, 250, or even the motogp class one day. Anyways I was inquireing about the dirt because I noticed that a lot of the riders in the past and present have a large amount of dirt track experience (Mamola, McDuin, Hayden, etc...) and I was thinking that perhaps background in that is vital to becomeing an excellent rider. I even think that supermoto experience would help because you are sliding the rear and practicing throttle control. I slide/spin the rear of my bike in the rain but would love to do it in the dry, except it is a few horsepower shy if you know what I mean. Thanks for the info.

[Dragon RR]

hey no problem, i like sharing my thoughts

 

i understand the horsepower thing. i couldn't seem to get my f4i to do it on dry, smooth pavement. although, if you can't force it, i say don't worry about it. it's nice to get comfortable with it just in case you do it in the dry, just so you won't freak yourself out.

another factor that i forgot to mention would be tire wear. if you've used a lot of tread on the sides of your tire, it will grip less. oh, not to mention lean angle. i can't do it in the dry yet either (on a liter bike) but i'm sure it's just one of those things that "happen" as you get used to the bike.

and those 125 and 250 bikes are all two stroke, i'm pretty sure, and you have experience with the peaks in power on those, so it wouldn't be a problem for you then. if you ever make it to the gp's, will you give me an autograph?

[Wippersnapper]

hey no problem, i like sharing my thoughts

 

i understand the horsepower thing. i couldn't seem to get my f4i to do it on dry, smooth pavement. although, if you can't force it, i say don't worry about it. it's nice to get comfortable with it just in case you do it in the dry, just so you won't freak yourself out.

another factor that i forgot to mention would be tire wear. if you've used a lot of tread on the sides of your tire, it will grip less. oh, not to mention lean angle. i can't do it in the dry yet either (on a liter bike) but i'm sure it's just one of those things that "happen" as you get used to the bike.

and those 125 and 250 bikes are all two stroke, i'm pretty sure, and you have experience with the peaks in power on those, so it wouldn't be a problem for you then. if you ever make it to the gp's, will you give me an autograph?

 

 

Yeah from my dirt track riding of a 125 and 250 I have plenty of experience with the power peaks. That is the best part about two strokes. I got to take out my dads RZ500 (two stroke street bike, gp replica) and that was really cool. I actually prefer sliding that because it is a lot easier to control and is shorter (only happens in the powerband). The length is nice but usually all you want is a little step-out for turning purposes.

 

My tread is pretty much brand new, I had to get a new set of tires for the rainy season up here. The bike is so much more fun to ride in the wet than the car is you know what I mean.

 

Yeah if I make it, just hit me up, that would be no problem lol.

[jrfuisz]

If I recall correctly, the GP-dirtbike thing is done on a dirt bike with the slick rear. There are schools out there that teach you how to slide just such a bike. I've been to one, which claims to have taught the Hayden brothers.

 

Sliding the bike through a turn is a function of speed and lean angle. On a dirt bike, on a rear slick, in say mud, it is much easier to break traction so you need less lean and less speed. It also hurts less when you fall off. I think the experience is probably good to some extent in getting you use to the concept of cliding and helping with throttle control. The problem bieng on the dirtbike you need to sit on the CG, which is not what you do on a street bike. You also are leaning at a lower speed so you are going the opposite direction (ie. sitting up on the bike), again different. The concept that you can learn to slide a 50cc bike with slicks in mud and not get hurt is nice in concept, but I could not walk for two weeks after I learned how to do it. Falling hurts and doing it 10x at 10-20 mph adds up. That all being said I can't slide a street bike. It is different enough in how you get to the lean/speed limit and different enough on how you deal with it that I can't get there on a street bike. Maybe after I finish LVL 3 and 4, I'll get closer.

 

If you really want to learn, go find a class. They are cheap and fun weekend events. If you don't buy into the 10-step program they teach to get you to "it" though, you wont be sliding anything. The 10-steps are to get you there and are artificial. Once you get "it" they tell you to forget how you got there and just remember "it" next time the bike starts to slide out from under you.

 

If you watch Rossi and Hayden closely, when they come in hot and the lean angle/speed result in the rear coming around, they drop the inside leg and go for a dirt bike style. That ends as soon as the speed is scrubbed. It is only lasting for a little bit. The rest of the corner etc. is pure street riding. The dirt bike training is only playing a role at the very beginning of the turn when they blew the entry speed thing. Noitce on most of those turns they also fall off the pace since a unctontrolled slide is nowhere near as good as brakes. Sliding the rear around the turn is a street thing, which dirt riding is not going to help with (other than having good throttle control and other basic functions.)

[Wippersnapper]

If I recall correctly, the GP-dirtbike thing is done on a dirt bike with the slick rear. There are schools out there that teach you how to slide just such a bike. I've been to one, which claims to have taught the Hayden brothers.

 

Sliding the bike through a turn is a function of speed and lean angle. On a dirt bike, on a rear slick, in say mud, it is much easier to break traction so you need less lean and less speed. It also hurts less when you fall off. I think the experience is probably good to some extent in getting you use to the concept of cliding and helping with throttle control. The problem bieng on the dirtbike you need to sit on the CG, which is not what you do on a street bike. You also are leaning at a lower speed so you are going the opposite direction (ie. sitting up on the bike), again different. The concept that you can learn to slide a 50cc bike with slicks in mud and not get hurt is nice in concept, but I could not walk for two weeks after I learned how to do it. Falling hurts and doing it 10x at 10-20 mph adds up. That all being said I can't slide a street bike. It is different enough in how you get to the lean/speed limit and different enough on how you deal with it that I can't get there on a street bike. Maybe after I finish LVL 3 and 4, I'll get closer.

 

If you really want to learn, go find a class. They are cheap and fun weekend events. If you don't buy into the 10-step program they teach to get you to "it" though, you wont be sliding anything. The 10-steps are to get you there and are artificial. Once you get "it" they tell you to forget how you got there and just remember "it" next time the bike starts to slide out from under you.

 

If you watch Rossi and Hayden closely, when they come in hot and the lean angle/speed result in the rear coming around, they drop the inside leg and go for a dirt bike style. That ends as soon as the speed is scrubbed. It is only lasting for a little bit. The rest of the corner etc. is pure street riding. The dirt bike training is only playing a role at the very beginning of the turn when they blew the entry speed thing. Noitce on most of those turns they also fall off the pace since a unctontrolled slide is nowhere near as good as brakes. Sliding the rear around the turn is a street thing, which dirt riding is not going to help with (other than having good throttle control and other basic functions.)

 

Ok I understand that it is different. I have seen videos of Hayden riding a supermoto motorcycle 9dirtbike with slicks) and the people he was racing with stuck out their foot to balance while sliding in a corner and he just leaned off the bike. I believe what you are referring to (the leg out pre-corner) sometimes is for balance yes but rarely. Whatch when they slide it big-time. They don't remove any body part from the bike because that is a loss of ability to control the bike. When they sick out their foot it is always the left one, it is to move the boot from below the shifter to on top so that once out of the corner they can shift. This is done because the boot is stiff and unlike riding on a road bike you sometimes cannon just roate your ankle to reposition your foot.

 

I agree with you though. Dirt racing is for experience in throttle control and practice controling slides.

[jrfuisz]

Agreed. Sliding with feet on or feet off though is pretty much the same thing. I agree that there is a left foot bias in terms of taking your foot of the peg (balance and/or readjusting for gear issues). If you tivo races though there is a difference in the two - normally you can tell from upper body position. The slide issues often have some upper body repositioning whereas shift readjustment do not.

 

Feet up or foot out does not really make a difference when you are sliding as long as the lean angle does not get insane. The only issue is when you get the bike really low and there is no room for your leg/foot between the bike and the dirt and you have no choice bu to go foot out. I've always wnated to learn to slide the bike in and spent a weekend learing. Granted I crashed 10+ times and could not walk for 2 weeks - huge 20 inch bruise on my hip - and various other pains, but I learned to do it. The hip injury was actually helped since I could not move it the last few sessions I was forced to learn to slide the bike with my feet up/on the pegs. Go figure. I don't think I need to go back for the supermoto class - same thing but on pavement.

 

I'm working my way through level 3 and 4 and then have my eye on coderace - just fo rthe fun of it. Then maybe learn to wheelie. Maybe hit the offroad/supermoto thing after my 50th.

[Wippersnapper]

Agreed. Sliding with feet on or feet off though is pretty much the same thing. I agree that there is a left foot bias in terms of taking your foot of the peg (balance and/or readjusting for gear issues). If you tivo races though there is a difference in the two - normally you can tell from upper body position. The slide issues often have some upper body repositioning whereas shift readjustment do not.

 

Feet up or foot out does not really make a difference when you are sliding as long as the lean angle does not get insane. The only issue is when you get the bike really low and there is no room for your leg/foot between the bike and the dirt and you have no choice bu to go foot out. I've always wnated to learn to slide the bike in and spent a weekend learing. Granted I crashed 10+ times and could not walk for 2 weeks - huge 20 inch bruise on my hip - and various other pains, but I learned to do it. The hip injury was actually helped since I could not move it the last few sessions I was forced to learn to slide the bike with my feet up/on the pegs. Go figure. I don't think I need to go back for the supermoto class - same thing but on pavement.

 

I'm working my way through level 3 and 4 and then have my eye on coderace - just fo rthe fun of it. Then maybe learn to wheelie. Maybe hit the offroad/supermoto thing after my 50th.

 

 

Sevral good points. I was just saying what you noted later, when the foot is stuck out in motogp it sin't going to help the slide rather than balance and is probably a panic reaction or for readjusting the boot. Like you mentioned the slides on street bikes are done with feet on pegs (98% of the time). Level 3 and 4 of the CSS school? That's great I am saving up for the two day at laguna. I think it would be wonderful to be humbled a bit when times are compared to professional racers on an internationaly raced track. 50th, birthday? How long have you been riding? I am 17 and am trying to get started racing, just a money issue right now, as most things are... Good luck with whatever part of motorcycleing hobby/career you decided to persue.