Body Steering

[mcsp3]

Hey All,

 

I have been lurking in the cornering forum for awhile now and have seen several references to the No Bs bike and some conflicting opinions on whether a person can change the direction of the bike without handle-bar input (counter-steering.) Anyway, the last couple of days I have been experimenting with Body Steering and find that I can indeed change direction to a reasonable degree without handlebar input. Coming down a hill with the bike slowing - because my hands are off the bars - I am able to turn the bike by leaning and I can even weave proving that the steering is not an artifact of an earlier steering input. So am I missing the point of the Body Steering discussions? Also, regarding Countersteering at low speeds, I have found through careful observation that even at very low speeds direction changes are coming from very subtle coutersteering inputs - so it seems that there is not a speed below which steering changes.

 

Mike

[Rifleman]

Maybe the real question isn't does body steering exist or not. We know that you can get the bike to lean/turn/circle/weave slightly by moving around on the bike. The real question is how effective such activity is. Is it 50% counter steer / 50% body steer? Is it 60 / 40? Is it 99% / 1%? Does this change as the speed increases. Does body steering become less effective at high speeds? Does counter steering become more effective at high speeds?

 

I think what we find is that body steering becomes difficult/impossible as the gyroscopic force increases (wheel RPM increases). Counter steer actually gets better and better, more predictable as wheel RPM goes up. Of course you will have to put in more force on the bars to get the torque from the gyro to lay the bike over (turn) but the faster the gyro goes around the more available torque there is for these manuvers. At some point (very early on) the body steer part of your control inputs becomes immaterial and thus useless. How much of your 10 bucks are you willing to spend on this means of manuvering your machine, especially when there is something much more effective at your disposal?

 

Your tests should show how slow the bike responds to body steer, how much lag between your "control input" and when the bike actually moves (turns). Do you think you could get the bike to turn enough to make a corner on the high way, in traffic, on the track? Then it is useless and it's existance is a moot point.

 

Counter steer effectively, quickly, accuratly, precisely controls the lean angle (turn) of the machine. Understanding how this works means you can effectivly, quickly, accuratly and precisely control your machine.

 

The No BS bike isolates the body steer inputs from the counter steer inputs, I.E. the movement of the body from pressure being applied to the bars. Some people who think body steering plays a part in the process would move around on the bike and it would turn and they would claim that the body movement was the cause even though they were putting small, but very important, CS inputs into the bars. The No BS bike simply prevents a person from putting CS input into the bars while moving around on the bike. It is a piece of analitical equipment designed to prove or disprove a hypothisys.

 

If we want to nibble Brie', quaff a Chateau' La'Feit, and ponder the universes' many facetts such as body steer by all means cogitate to our hearts content. However if you want to turn quick, lean hard, and go fast... understand countersteering and worry not about the BS (yes both BS's).

 

Rman

[mcsp3]

You'll have to change your mind if you want me to argue with you.

 

I know that body steering is not an efficient way of turning the bike and yes as the speed goes up it becomes even less so. I was curious about the argument though. Apparently there are people who feel that body steering is useful at high speeds and I would agree with you that attention and effort should be spent on counter steering as it actually turns the bike at any speed. Same for weighting inside pegs and such - it just doesn't seem to do enough to be worth thinking about espescially at the expense of say throttle control.

 

Something else: since reading TOTW2 I have been working on quicker steering, as my turn rate increases, I find that I need so little lean angle on the street that turns are not nearly as exciting. I end up using later turn entry points (making the turn sharper than required) just to keep the juice flowing while not running dangerously high speeds for the street.

 

Is there somewhere on the net that describes the various drills used in Levels I-IV? I would like to take the courses but the finances are just not there at this time.

 

I certainly don't have the finances to quaff a Chateau La'Feit. But I can sometimes be drawn into a beer swilling BS session. I do find that a little cogitation goes a long way when combined with some experimentation.

[Rifleman]

*chuckles*, not here to argue, you are fully entitled to an oppinion, good or bad.

 

Maybe the way to look at it is that everything body steering is doing to control the machine can be done by CS, faster, safer, quicker, more efficiently, with less mental strain. Don't get me wrong, body position and weight distribution are very important to sucess just not in the "steering" portion of the formula.

 

sounds like we are on the same page.

 

so now that you are using the techniques your old haunts arn't exciting enough. *S* ah, the door has been cracked open. I am in the same boat, not enough coin to go to the class so I don't have access to the secrets either. A number of people on this board will try to explain specific drills for specific problems but what would take days back and forth here would take minutes with a CSS instructor. It's like cutting your lawn with sissors, yes it can be done, however it would take forever and drive most people crazy. I spent two weeks on this board trying to figure out what was ment by "pressure on the outside peg". Finally figured out it was pressure, not weight, push from the outside peg with your leg, through your core, out your inside arm. You think you can quick flick now, *S* lets just say the SR's kicked in big time the first time I quick flicked properly, the bike screamed instantly over, YIKES!.... KEWL!!!....... Not to sound like a spokesperson for CSS but save the money and go, if you have taken the step to posting here, yack'in about it on line just isn't going to get it done for you.

 

Rman (who is putting his change in a jar marked "CSS fund")

[JeF4y]

Ugh... I just went through 5 pages of this exact topic on my forum...

 

http://www.cbr600rr.com/forum/index.php?bo...y;threadid=5154

[Rifleman]

I didn't think there was such a big deal about this. I took two MSF courses over 15 years ago and one of the first things we learned was obstical avoidance... done by using counter steer.

 

The demonstration was simple even back then, get the bike up to 15 mph in a straight line, a quick firm push on the left bar, be amazed at how fast the bike pitches over to the LEFT and avoids the 2x4 obstical.

 

I don't even know why it's such a big deal, even if body steer worked well, if someone offered me a better, faster, smoother, more reliable, more efficient way to do something... wouldn't it be foolish not to test it and use it if better?

 

silly as it may sound, perhaps it is a good thing that the competition remains firmly planted in the ideals and principals of body steer.

 

Rman

[Green Knight]

I havn't been ride for a real long time but body stearing just seems like your are trying to work against the bike rather than with it. I find that I'm much more stable if I just press on the handle bar in the direction I want to go and lean my body weight over the side of the bike. Leaning IMHO doesn't make the bike turn quicker but changes the combined center of gravity thus making you have to lean the bike less to make the same turn.

 

Green Knight

[stuman]

Ugh...  I just went through 5 pages of this exact topic on my forum...

 

http://www.cbr600rr.com/forum/index.php?bo...y;threadid=5154

Bah! Only 5 pages? This same topic went 38 pages on the R1 forum a while back. Man talk about a can of worms

 

Here's a link to that thread... http://www.r1-forum.com/forums/showthread....&threadid=21254

 

There is a lot of really good info on this subject on the above thread with the Likes of Keith, Will, Andrew Trevit, and many others putting in their 2 cents.

[adifferentname]

I'm curious - when someone manages to steer the bike with their hands off the bars is there a countersteer at the initiation of the direction change (eg does the front wheel go out of line with the rear in a countersteering manner)

[Rifleman]

Every demonstration of body steer that I've seen has been done at very low speeds (idle speed in first or second) At this speed the gyroscopic force developed by the rotation of the wheels is almost nil. The front wheel actually turns toward the turn, not away from it as is the case with counter steer.

 

The big variable is speed. At low speed the gyroscopic force generated is small and can be overcome by moving the body weight off center, thus causing the bike to lean. At higher speed the gyroscopic force generated is much greater and moving the center of mass to one side or the other has a very limited effect.

 

this is the reason for the contravercy over this topic. CS controls the bike for all real world applications. Street, track, obstical avoidance. Body steer can be use but only in very specific exibition examples. So one side makes the brash statement that body steer doesn't exist, the other side produces a picture of a stunter draggin his fingers on the ground from the back seat of a leaned over bike or questions how a mile long wheel stand can be driven on anything other then an arrow straight piece of tarmac.

 

This forum is devoted to better, faster, effective, and reliable cornering on the track and perhaps translated over to the street. Those are real world conditions. To accomplish these goals the proper use and understanding of CS is absolutly necessary. Body steer simply muddies the waters for the stated goal.

 

Rman

[adifferentname]

Cool.

 

I can imagine 2 people circulating a track, one countersteering with their body held in place, the other on the no BS bike trying to body steer it - would be quite amusing.

[Rifleman]

Understand that I'm no expert (I've made enough incorrect statements on this board to discredit just about anything I could say) but the real question at hand is about steering the bike. How does the pilot make it lean so as to properly navigate the turn in question at or near the highest speed possible. Just looking at turning the bike, counter steer is the answer.

 

Now body possition and weight distribution are extreamly important when we discuss how the suspention works to keep the rubber in contact with the tarmac and give back maximum traction. How the pilot is possitioned on the machine so that the control inputs can be performed quickly and in the most effective way. Don't just throw out body possition and weight distribution because it has a minimal effect on how fast, accuratly and effectivly you can turn the bike. It's still important, just not germane to the "turning the bike" discussion.

 

knowledge is power

 

Rman

[Balistic]

The idea of what type of body inputs into the bike is the issue. No one will dispute that if you through the balance of the bike off by moving to one side it will change direction (lean), But is it steering? But if you think pushing a knee into the tank or changing peg weight without body position movement will do much that would be in dispute.

 

an interesting point is no matter what you do with your body to effect the direction of the bike it will Counter Steer to the new direction, hands on or off the bars. It is just how a bike works.

 

I am a firm believer in body steering ( moving my body to change the CG of the bike to the side I want to steer to) in regards to helping with Counter Steering. I wouldn't assign it a percentage of steering input just because I can steer the bike without it, but when you have little time in which to steer it's use can cut down on steering effort and rider fatigue.

Will

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