fossilfuel
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Posts posted by fossilfuel
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As usual, I'm not sure where to put this, but, it definitely belongs somewhere around here...
Racer,
That was great.
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Hi kwh,
If there is "extra grip" left over, wouldn't it be preferable to use it to carry more speed, rather than use it to slow down?
(Aside from say a decreasing radius turn, of course.)
Ah! Sorry, I never saw your reply back when you wrote this!
Yes it would be great to carry more speed, but what does that mean?
OK, so you are a MotoGP riding god with more talent in your little finger than the rest of us mere mortals have in our entire bodies put together. And your chief telemetry technician comes and tells you that you aren't using anything like all the grip your MotoGP front slick offers you in the corners. What to do?
You you can try to turn ever faster, but there comes a point when your arms are moving as fast as humanly possible, and the bike is going from vertical to full lean as fast as a human can make it. Being a MotoGP riding god, you probably already reached this point. So what then if you still have lots of front grip in reserve?
So then you can try and carry more corner speed. But at a certain point, you will be so far over on your ear that you will be about to ride off the edge of your MotoGP spec slick tyres and/or deck the footpegs etc, however much you shift your weight to try and reduce the lean angle. Again, you are probably already there. So what if even then you still have lots of front grip in reserve with your MotoGP front slick? Presumably some cheeky competitor will use that extra grip to ride under you before you turn and then use that spare grip to brake all the way to the apex while holding a similarly tight line, right in your way?
So, is the answer (for our imaginary MotoGP riding god, not for us) to turn in at a higher speed than we otherwise would while quite hard on the brakes to make full use of all that spare grip?
I only ask the question. But it would explain the observed effect...
This has been a really interesting discussion and just wanted to make a comment. I have been doing track days for about 4 years now and feel that trail braking has made my transition from off the gas, on the brake and into the corner much smoother. I used to think it was an all or nothing proposition seeing what can happen if you loose the front. I feel like there is less force on the front (more balance between the front and rear). less stress on the arms and a better feel for body position when I know I can carry the braking into the corner.........smooth. I may be full of it but the bike seems to be more stable ( I am not wadded up on the front of the bike) and I feel more confident about controlling speed into the corner but then again I'm not racing. I am just having fun.
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I have signed up for the lvl 1 class on 5/19 at VIR. I have read Twist 2.
As stated in the topic, I am a Harley guy. In the last few years my riding style has progressed toward the aggressive end of the scale. I did a trip with friends to The Dragon last year and scraped everything up on both sides. I knew something had to change. So at age 49 I did the only thing I could. I bought a 2000 YZF600R. Now it is time to learn how to ride it.
A friend of mine wanted to take your class so here we are (he signed up too).
I am doing the class with my bike and gear. I am funny that way. Did the same thing with SCUBA. I plan to do track days in the future.
Now for the questions.
What do I need to do to my bike? (water, safety wire, lights, tires, ect.)
What do I need for gear? I will have a full 2 piece 360 zip leather suit, within 5 year full face 1 piece Snell/DOT helmet, leather gauntlet gloves and racing boots. Do I need a back protector? What else do I need?
I look forward to getting there. We are going to stay at the track over the garage the night of the 18th so we can get a fresh start in the morning. Maybe we could meet y'all there if that is where you are staying.
Do I need anything else?
Thanks,
Hank
Hank,
I sold my Harleys and did my first track day in '04 and have been addicted ever since. I am reaching the ripe old age of 53 next month so take it from me, you are never to old to become passionate about riding and doing track days. I keep getting better and better thanks to what I have learned at CSS. You just need to be in top physical condition to maintain good body position at my age.
As for what is needed, I am sure some of the guy's will let you know. I for one recommend that you replace coolant with water wetter or another substitute just because water pumps and radiators and hoses seem to be the biggest source of clean up issues from incidents at the track. Remove your mirrors, disconnect your lights and tape them. Check your chain tension better lose than tight. Also as for as tires are concerned, I have never seen a 190/50/17 rear tire sold at any event I have ever been to. If you are running on 190's I suggest a 190/55/17. I ride a 1000cc and have run 180/55/17's, 190/55/17's and currently trying for the first time Dunlop's 195/70/17 (I like it).
Good luck and welcome to the addiction
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Welcome
I'm doing CSS at Rockingham on July 8th if you fancy joining me!Hi Rick, I wish I could but due to working commitments I cant do july this year!
I will hopefully manage one later this year!
I have a couple of questions for you, hope you dont mind.
do you intend doing all 4 levels eventually?
also are you going to use your own bike when you go or hiring a school bike?
if using your own bike are there hotels in the rockingham area with secure bike parking?
I ask this as when I go I would preffer to use my own bike but i have no trailer or van so would be driving the bike down and staying for a few nights.
I notice your local track is cadwell, I would love to do a track day there sometime, I love wacthing the bsb guys on tv jumping the mountain section there, it makes for really exiting racing
cheers
bobby
Welcome. I highly, highly recommend doing all four levels of CSS. Make the commitment and finish all four levels. You will never regret it.
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For sure when pushing it TC (throttle control) takes more attention. One rule that doesn't get as much notice is TC rule number #2 in Twist 2. I've started paying more attention to this aspect lately, both when and how.
I'm gonna be mean and let you guys find it
C
"Throttle control rule number two: in any fast entry turn, calculate the roll-off as carefully as you would a roll-on." (p.30)
I have been focusing on turn in and will work on braking next time out. I had been worried about tucking the front so I was hesitant about trail braking into the corner. I watched the AMA races this weekend and paid close attention to the use of the brake in the turns. I can see to be fast, trail braking is a must. So I guess turn in and trail braking will be something I will have to work on.
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Regarding doing down the right amount of gears, there is something Keith told me (could be in one of his books?), and that was to count how many gears you go down for a turn. I've used this, and it's worked well, and pretty simple.
That's exactly what I do. I remember "down three" or "down two", etc. In fact, if you asked me what gear I was in for a particular corner, I would probably have to stop and think about it and actually need to count through my shifts from memory starting at a reference like 6th gear at the end of the straight.
Well, now I have a few things to work on in level 4....thanks
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Regarding doing down the right amount of gears, there is something Keith told me (could be in one of his books?), and that was to count how many gears you go down for a turn. I've used this, and it's worked well, and pretty simple.
That's exactly what I do. I remember "down three" or "down two", etc. In fact, if you asked me what gear I was in for a particular corner, I would probably have to stop and think about it and actually need to count through my shifts from memory starting at a reference like 6th gear at the end of the straight.
Yes and I should know that instead of guessing. I will be better prepared and have notes with information like what gear I am in for turns, reference points for braking and turn in to corners. I have learned a lot and hope to hear from you guys on new posts with other questions I have. See you on the next one.
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Regarding doing down the right amount of gears, there is something Keith told me (could be in one of his books?), and that was to count how many gears you go down for a turn. I've used this, and it's worked well, and pretty simple.
That's exactly what I do. I remember "down three" or "down two", etc. In fact, if you asked me what gear I was in for a particular corner, I would probably have to stop and think about it and actually need to count through my shifts from memory starting at a reference like 6th gear at the end of the straight.
Yes and I should know that instead of guessing. I will be better prepared and have notes with information like what gear I am in for turns, reference points for braking and turn in to corners. I have learned a lot and hope to hear from you guys on new posts with other questions I have. See you on the next one.
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I made a couple of changes to the bike, slipper clutch and less rebound on the forks. My changes were finding reference points for on and off the brakes that I could hit every time, smoother pressure on the lever and more speed into the corner.
Thanks to everyone for the input. This helped me to do some self evaluation and put the tools from school to work.
That's awesome! Glad to hear it! Thank you for sharing your data and results.
When you say "less rebound", do you mean less rebound damping?
I wonder if just using the new RP's, gear choice and braking technique would be enough without the damping changes.
What "shifting issues" were you having? How do you like the new clutch?
Racer,
I increased rebound damping 2 clicks, not much but just enough to see if I could make a difference. I think the reference points also helped me to know that I am applying maximum braking before the ripples and coming off the brakes as I enter the ripples. The shifting issue was me just being an idiot and not knowing what gear I was in.....Just sometimes catching to low a gear and getting the bike upset going down hill into an off camber turn. The slipper clutch is Awesome....Awesome.....Awesome. The clutch slips just enough that I stay out of trouble on the down shifts. I have been working on the throttle blip but sometimes I have an instant between blip, clutch release and back on throttle that is now a non issue with the slipper clutch. I hope to get better at this.
Thanks for your comments.
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Does that mean you are no longer having the problem?
Racer,
I no longer have the problem. I am sure that it was a combination of shifting to low and breaking to hard over ripples. I made a couple of changes to the bike, slipper clutch and less rebound on the forks. My changes were finding reference points for on and off the brakes that I could hit every time, smoother pressure on the lever and more speed into the corner.
Thanks to everyone for the input. This helped me to do some self evaluation and put the tools from school to work.
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Hi Darryl, (had the name incorrect before).
What I had wanted to know was what you had been doing with the bars? If I recall, you have done level 3, correct? If so, there might be an application of a technique in there that will help right away. Let me know, we'll go from there.
Best,
C
Hi Guys,
Just wanted to update this thread about the bounce I was getting. I had a two day at Barber this weekend and went out and worked on this corner. I think it was a combination of braking to hard and shifting into to low a gear. I started braking a little earlier, softer more even squeeze on the lever and carrying a more speed into the corner. I think this kept me from loading the front. I also bought a slipper clutch to help with the shifting issues. Thanks for the input.
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Foot peg position for me is very important. I was pushing my knee into the tank but with a relatively small amount of contact area making my knee sore. I experimented with position over the weekend and have found a position where I get more inside leg against the tank, more contact on the Stomp pads. The forum is great! thanks.
I thought I would give it a good try and position my pegs at several different locations. First of all, I only have 4 square inches to work with and to make any other changes I would need to modify the brackets and that would be a major hassle. From a neutral position where the pegs are centered on the bracket, I only have one inch in any direction to make a change. This doesn't do much for my leg position in regards to getting better grip on the tank for turns. I tried every position and finally said "uncle". I know, I started the thread to begin with. What does work is sucking up closer to the tank so I think I will add a little padding to the back of the seat so I can still push with the outside leg. Thanks
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Foot peg position for me is very important. I was pushing my knee into the tank but with a relatively small amount of contact area making my knee sore. I experimented with position over the weekend and have found a position where I get more inside leg against the tank, more contact on the Stomp pads. The forum is great! thanks.
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Notice the difference in stirrup placement for hunter/jumpers, dressage, western and... thoroughbred racing, eh?
I found your points about placement near the CoM intriguing and will give that some more thought. It intuitively makes sense as CoM is sometimes called the 'center of rotation', right?
Yes, I think you understand the point I am making. If you and I were to buy two new identical sport bikes, you are 5'10" and weigh 165 lbs and I am 6'2" and weigh 200 lbs is the center of mass the same? What can I do to make our CoM the same or as close to it as possible? Maybe nothing?
I do get your point and it does seem logical. And I think you probably could come pretty close to making one bike/rider combo footpeg position relatively equal to another wrt "static" CoM with some effort. However, I think there might be more going on wrt CoM, body mass distribution, riding position, riding style, musculature and strength, etc than might easily lend itself to a "standardized" footpeg position relative to a dynamic CoM, ie. what works for one rider might not necessarily be good for another even if the footpegs postions are similar wrt CoM.
In my experience, footpeg position can be a highly personalized thing for some racers, while others don't seem so concerned with it. At the end of the day, I think the guys who have a very specific preference have tried different positions to find out what works best for them. I have seen mounting plates with several or many different options machined or drilled into them for the purpose of experimenting with footpeg position. Of course, having access to a machine shop helps because, in addition to making a plate like that, everytime you move footpeg position you probably need to create a new shift linkage (unless you arc the various positions around a radius of a single linkage, which would probably be somewhat limiting).
That said, there may in fact be some wisdom on the Pro/World Circuits wrt to footpeg position that one could discern by watching the tapes closely (freeze frame, take caliper measurements on the screen, etc ...?)
Thanks Racer. I have really enjoyed the discourse. I will post what I have found after my two day at Barber. Feel free to chime in anytime.
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Notice the difference in stirrup placement for hunter/jumpers, dressage, western and... thoroughbred racing, eh?
I found your points about placement near the CoM intriguing and will give that some more thought. It intuitively makes sense as CoM is sometimes called the 'center of rotation', right?
Yes, I think you understand the point I am making. If you and I were to buy two new identical sport bikes, you are 5'10" and weigh 165 lbs and I am 6'2" and weigh 200 lbs is the center of mass the same? What can I do to make our CoM the same or as close to it as possible? Maybe nothing?
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In the past, I always went for max height with rearsets. It seemed easier to move my butt off, or back and forth. Not to mention ground clearance. Look at the GP riders and how bent their legs are due to how high the pegs are.
I don't think I ever thought about "anchoring" myself the way the school is talking about nowadays. But boy did my thighs get sore from holding myself up the first weekend every year. I bet that anchoring stuff really helps with that!
Racer,
I have always wondered about the geometry of riding and how your set up should be on the pegs or how this effects total body geometry. My wife rides horses and teaches position and where the students feet should be in the stirrups. When I bought a mountain bike the first thing the bike expert did was set up my body position on the bike. When I ride my stationary bike there is a technic for setting up geometry that optimizes muscle efficiency. My problem has been the more laps I put in the harder it is to maintain that leg position and keep my upper body weight off the bars. I will adjust my pegs during a two day in March and see if I can get more contact with my calf and thigh and see if that helps my balance and center of gravity.
My very first Keith Code School the leg anchor was mentioned late in the day by an instructor. I tried it through a down hill turn at about 90 mph dragging my fingers on the concrete curbing with no pressure on my throttle hand. It is a great technic. I just couldn't sustain it and think it is related to my peg postion.
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Hi Guy's,
I am getting ready for my first track day of the season and wondered if there is a good indicator or rule of thumb for setting up rear sets for leg position. What is the most important variable that one should consider when setting peg position. I thought about this after having difficulty pressing into my tank with knee for turns. I thought my rear sets might be to high and to for back causing me to push in more of a horizontal plane than vertical. I am 6'2" and use stomp grips. Thanks for any thoughts.
I did some investigating and came up with the following, could be right could be wrong. I would have to consider that the most important aspect when setting up pegs on after market rear sets is center of gravity. I should position my pegs to create good positioning over the center of gravity of the bike. In my case being 6"2" it might be a little harder to do. According to some articles I have read, a 50%-50% weight distribution is key to the functionality of the motorcycle especially in turns. A forward center of gravity creates over steer with rear wheel slip in turns. With a high center of gravity the rear wheel tends to lift in braking. So in my case, if the pegs are to far back and to high I am rotating my weight to for forward creating oversteer and a high and forward center of gravity when braking. I think if I make the change It should take less effort to stick the knee in to the tank in turns and less arm pressure on the handle bars?
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Hi Guy's,
I am getting ready for my first track day of the season and wondered if there is a good indicator or rule of thumb for setting up rear sets for leg position. What is the most important variable that one should consider when setting peg position. I thought about this after having difficulty pressing into my tank with knee for turns. I thought my rear sets might be to high and to for back causing me to push in more of a horizontal plane than vertical. I am 6'2" and use stomp grips. Thanks for any thoughts.
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Hey Darryl,
I'm sorry if my last post was a bit overwhelming and hard to follow. I was thinking out loud off the top of my head (in a hurry) and I didn't have time to trim it down to more 'bite size' pieces. I didn't mean to grill you or express doubt in your perceptions, I was just trying to cover all the bases at once in a single post and probably covering none of them well...lol.
So, let me see if I can do a better job of it here and keep it simple.
If you installed suspension components out of the box the way they were sent to you (from Kyle?) it might still be a good idea to have a local suspension pro go through it with you in person to make sure the settings are a good baseline for you.
And, if the bouncing is only happening in one turn (and nowhere else), I would get really, really clear about what is happening in that one turn before assuming it is a suspension issue.
Hope that helps,
racer
Hey not a problem on the response. I think one of the things that Keith tries to teach that is really an underlying them to his school is awareness. I was not paying attention and asked a stupid question. I will get on the braking bike in June and until then be more aware of what the bike is telling me. I can fix it. I really appreciate everyones comments and help. See you soon.
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This turn does have issues with ripples from car braking but I don't think that is the cause.
Why not?
Does this mean that you believe you are avoiding the ripples? Like you have found a smooth line through the braking zone?
Or does it mean you are riding over them but you are familiar with what ripples feel like and what is happening does not feel like that?
Ripples in the pavement from cars can be pronounced or subtle. Sometimes they are more wavy than bumpy washboard. Sometimes there are other imperfections in the pavement that might not be noticed if one is focusing on avoiding the car bumps.
My problem now or has been is that I tend to get into a bounce that I can't get out of from time to time depending on how hard I brake."From time to time" and "depending on how hard you brake."
So, does this mean that it only ever happens when you brake hard in that one corner and that you are able to control it by braking less (and perhaps sooner?) so that the "time to time's" that it doesn't happen is definitely because you are braking less?
To put it another way, are you certain that how hard you brake isn't moving your braking zone over some imperfection in the pavement?
Is turn five the only place this seems to be happening? Can you re-create these oscillations in other turns or in a praking lot?
That being said, the bounce seems to feel like a resonance that begins under hard breaking ...What is the frequency of the resonance? Once per second? 2x/sec? 5x/sec?
It feels like riding down rutted dirt road in your car like it just picks your car up on the top of the ruts and theres not much you can do until you get the car slowed down.OK, to my ear, from everything you have said...unless you are certain that are riding a smooth piece of pavement that does not go over the ripples...it sounds exactly like you are describling riding over the ripples and that the bounce is being caused by them. Owing to the fact that it only happens in one turn and your verbal description "car over ruts" ...ruts dug up by cars sounds like a description of ripples dug up by cars. So, are you sure you might not be riding over the ripples ... from time to time?
Now, if you are riding over ruts (or ripples), and "skipping" over the tops, I would say that decreasing the rebound damping to allow faster rebound and allow the wheel to track better or follow the ruts better might help. And perhaps a touch off compression as well. Assuming you can't find a smooth line first.Picks your car up on the top of the ruts".But...you said that you don't think the ripples are the cause.
So, if you don't think the ripples or pavement are causing the "resonance", I would isolate the situation and attempt to re-create it under some control situation. And as it only seems to be happening in this one corner ...from time to time. Maybe you are connecting it with the hard braking in your mind, and maybe hard braking does coincide with the the "bounce" and is intitiating it, but, maybe the braking itself is not really the root issue. And maybe changing the suspension isn't the answer at all.
Have you asked other riders about their experience in that corner? Did you talk to Dan Kyle about it? You said you trust him, but, it wasn't clear why you mentioned that. Did he tell you to back off the rebound damping?
Anyway, I would get really clear about the conditions, ie walk the track and look closely at the pavement and your RP's and brake markers to know well where you are, where all the bumps are ... and look for a smooth line. Amd ask other riders what they are doing. If you are confident that the suspension was set up to baseline correctly, I would look at that only after being really clear about the one corner that seems to be giving you trouble as the suspension seems to work fine everywhere else?
I mean...why only turn five? And why potentially sacrifice good operation in ten other corners to solve a situation in one?
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Hi Guys,
It is getting close to the start of track season. My first is at Barber March 1 and 2. I have an issue with braking in turn 5 which is the hair pin off camber coming down the hill. I have done many track days at Barber and seem to be able to handle negotiating the track given my level of experience. Early in my track day experience I load sided there but understand thanks to you guys the problem with that. My problem now or has been is that I tend to get into a bounce that I can't get out of from time to time depending on how hard I brake. I have gone off the track because of my inability to slow down enough to make the turn ( bouncing). This turn does have issues with ripples from car braking but I don't think that is the cause. I have Ohlins forks and shock and decreased rebound on the front forks two clicks from settings that were sent to me and I still get it. What could I be doing wrong?
After posting this I happened to look at other posts and came across an article where the instructor kept commenting "you are answering your on questions". I have been through three Keith Code schools and learned more in three days than I had for much of my riding life. I should use the principles that he teaches to solve the problem then I will have become much more aware of the bike, the track, and my riding ability. Thanks Keith.
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Can you describe what the "bouncing" feels like in a little more detail?
I am not really familiar with this particular corner but I get the idea the 'bouncing' or oscillation begins in a downhill braking zone and that you aren't hard on the brakes?
I don't like to give suggestions without knowing more detail but my initial instinct would be to *increase* damping, maybe both rebound and compression. Without more info it is hard to say for sure. But assuming springs, oil weight and oil level are correct, that is where I would start. I don't know what the rebound range is; but, for a rough sort I'd give it more than just 1-2 clicks. I'd try 3-4 to see if I were going in the right direction. Once I knew which way to go, then I'd fine tune it.
Thanks for your time. I will be the first to admit that my knowledge of suspension set up could fit on the head of a pin but I bought my forks and shock from Dan Kyle and have the utmost confidence in his ability. That being said, the bounce seems to feel like a resonance that begins under hard breaking and is difficult to stop before the entry into the turn. It feels like riding down rutted dirt road in your car like it just picks your car up on the top of the ruts and theres not much you can do until you get the car slowed down. When this occurs I feel like the only way to stop it is to let off the brake and of course I am then touring Mr. Barbers beautifully groomed lawn.
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Hi Guys,
It is getting close to the start of track season. My first is at Barber March 1 and 2. I have an issue with braking in turn 5 which is the hair pin off camber coming down the hill. I have done many track days at Barber and seem to be able to handle negotiating the track given my level of experience. Early in my track day experience I low sided there but understand thanks to you guys the problem with that. My problem now or has been is that I tend to get into a bounce that I can't get out of from time to time depending on how hard I brake. I have gone off the track because of my inability to slow down enough to make the turn ( bouncing). This turn does have issues with ripples from car braking but I don't think that is the cause. I have Ohlins forks and shock and decreased rebound on the front forks two clicks from settings that were sent to me and I still get it. What could I be doing wrong?
Are the springs in your Ohlin's sized for your weight? I was having pronounced oscillation in my bike's forks under heavy braking until I swapped the "racing springs" the previous owner had installed out for a pair that were more appropriate for my size - problem solved. YRMV.
Kevin Kane
Thanks for the response Kevin. The forks were ordered with my specific weight including equipment so unless there was a major screw up I do not think that is the problem. I will check with the vender I bought them from. I will be taking the level 4 class at Barber in April so maybe one of you guys can help if I do not solve the issue before then. Thanks
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Hi Guys,
It is getting close to the start of track season. My first is at Barber March 1 and 2. I have an issue with braking in turn 5 which is the hair pin off camber coming down the hill. I have done many track days at Barber and seem to be able to handle negotiating the track given my level of experience. Early in my track day experience I load sided there but understand thanks to you guys the problem with that. My problem now or has been is that I tend to get into a bounce that I can't get out of from time to time depending on how hard I brake. I have gone off the track because of my inability to slow down enough to make the turn ( bouncing). This turn does have issues with ripples from car braking but I don't think that is the cause. I have Ohlins forks and shock and decreased rebound on the front forks two clicks from settings that were sent to me and I still get it. What could I be doing wrong?
I'm doing CSS at Rockingham on July 8th if you fancy joining me!
The Most Difficult Corner On The Planet
in School Questions/General Discussion
Posted
Someone mentioned the Alabama Roller Coaster at Barber. This one is very tuff for me. going down the straight at a good clip, down into turn 7, straighten the bike up for the curbing, brake for the curbing, down shift, off the seat over the curbing, down into the seat and drop it into the right hander. Very busy little corner for me.
I would like to work on this one in May.