Jaybird180
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Posts posted by Jaybird180
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Apologies for the double post. Removed
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I'd like to quote Keith Code in saying, "It doesn't matter what you ride or where you ride, the principles remain the same"
I think that performing turn-in at maintenance throttle would work because:
1- The Chassis and suspension are settled
2- No drivetrain lash when getting back in the gas leaned over
I haven't done Lvl1 yet, so take this with a grain of salt, but isn't that one of the goals of the Throttle Control, no brakes drill? To train the rider to go into the corner at maintenance throttle, ON the gas?
Thanks Slowass for bringing up your "basic" question. Topics like this help us all.
If you roll on the throttle while turning in, or have it on already, then what happens to the line the bike will take? In other words, does it run wide if you have throttle on at the beginning of the turn? If it does run wide, how does one handle that later in the turn?
CF
Rolling on at turn-in is not the same as Maintenance Throttle. I will check my reference material.
http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.php?showtopic=540
12. Coordinating the exact roll on to stabilize the bike at the brake off/quick flick point. When you drop a bike into a turn quickly there is an optimum opening of the throttle, which maintains good stability through that transition. The focus on this is to see if you can grab the right amount of throttle right away to get that instant stability.
-Keith Code
Comments?
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I'd like to quote Keith Code in saying, "It doesn't matter what you ride or where you ride, the principles remain the same"
I think that performing turn-in at maintenance throttle would work because:
1- The Chassis and suspension are settled
2- No drivetrain lash when getting back in the gas leaned over
I haven't done Lvl1 yet, so take this with a grain of salt, but isn't that one of the goals of the Throttle Control, no brakes drill? To train the rider to go into the corner at maintenance throttle, ON the gas?
Thanks Slowass for bringing up your "basic" question. Topics like this help us all.
If you roll on the throttle while turning in, or have it on already, then what happens to the line the bike will take? In other words, does it run wide if you have throttle on at the beginning of the turn? If it does run wide, how does one handle that later in the turn?
CF
Rolling on at turn-in is not the same as Maintenance Throttle. I will check my reference material.
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Okay,...I may be mixing some Nick Ienatsch in there. My bad on the Maintenance throttle, but I'll still look it up in my TOTW.
And yes, I do trackride. I don't get enough tracktime though.
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OK, here's what happens; I went out for a ride today to work on this. I can do the clutchless downshifting and it's almost as smooth as the upshifting. The little bit of throttle adjustment to unweight the transmission for downshifting is similar to what you need for upshifting. The one thing I need to be careful of is to make sure my foot isn't holding any pressure on the shift lever in between gears- if I don't quite get it up then it won't shift when I push down. I was not going very fast and the engine speed wasn't high. I can drive this was in normal traffic to change speed although coming up to a light I tend to not go through all the gears but rather hold the clutch in and just shift all the way down to first. The time I find it does not work is if I'm braking hard because then my throttle is not on at all and while holding the brake lever on I don't think it's practical to do much of any throttle management. Right? In this case I just use the clutch and shift.
Another experiment I did was when there was a bit of throttle on and I wanted to upshift. I was thinking about the blip thing. If you hold the throttle steady and pull in the clutch, the engine speed goes up- quickly. So what I did was hold the throttle steady, pulled in the clutch and shifted and let the clutch out, all very quickly. This worked out to be pretty smooth if you do it all as one quick action.
Holding the clutch in and throttle on is called "speed shifting" and is hard on the clutch, wears it out too soon. It's not needed and doesn't really help anything. Just roll off the throttle for a moment, shift the gear.
When I do commute, one can go from 1st-6th, around town, and back down, never going over 5 or 6K (usually 3-4k), shifting as needed up or down. It's easy, give it a try.
CF
I've never done the speed shifting before, so I guess I won't continue it. My off-track riding is fine. The only area I am not sure about though is on the track- if I'm going fast down the straight, coming to the end and I'm in say, 4th gear, coming up to the turn, do you downshift while braking and your speed is coming down? After the turn? I don't think mid-turn...
Approaching the turn you have a braking zone. It is during your heavy braking that you want to execute the downshifting to setup the proper gear for the drive through the turn, where ideally you are at the top of the meat of the powerband at your exit point.
After your braking zone (and this is important) you want to have a point where you intend to let-off the brakes and a point where you initiate your countersteer.
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Sorry, Jay, I was short on time and there were several posts that all seemed to be saying the same wrong thing. Forgive me, I just didn't feel like getting into an argument with three people at once. And there's no sense arguing from a position of being "just some guy" on the internet, so, I referred the subject to someone you will believe, namely Keith Code.
I think you've established yourself around here as more than "just some guy on the internet". Just my opinion.
The bottom line is that closing the throttle puts weight on the front tire to allow you to quick turn the bike. The only type of corner where I will still be in the throttle when I make a steering input is a relatively shallow high speed kink or sweeper where I can't really quick turn anyway and maintaining a balanced suspension is more important to carrying speed through the entry than quick turning the bike.This has been my habit and I've been trying to train it out of myself. Are you now saying that I was making the correct control inputs all along? (error...not processing...error Will Robinson)
That said, for "normal" commuting type riding or riding some country road at a relaxed pace, one doesn't really need to "quick turn" the bike and being in the throttle when you bend into a lazy turn is normal. The truth is I quit riding on the street in 1993 and tend to think of everything in terms of high performace riding or racing which requires specific skills and techniques that, while useful in emergency situations on the street, aren't really the norm.I'd like to quote Keith Code in saying, "It doesn't matter what you ride or where you ride, the principles remain the same"
I think that performing turn-in at maintenance throttle would work because:
1- The Chassis and suspension are settled
2- No drivetrain lash when getting back in the gas leaned over
I haven't done Lvl1 yet, so take this with a grain of salt, but isn't that one of the goals of the Throttle Control, no brakes drill? To train the rider to go into the corner at maintenance throttle, ON the gas?
Thanks Slowass for bringing up your "basic" question. Topics like this help us all.
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Hey guys,
You can pick up a copy of A Twist of the Wrist and Keith's other books/videos here: https://secure.echoalley.com/superbikeschool/store/
For what it's worth, I've been riding for thirty years and raced on the pro-circuit for ten years winning so many trophies I only keep the national podium finishes on display anymore, and keep the rest in several boxes in the attic. Everything I learned to let me win all those races is in Keith's books.
Good luck,
racer
Racer, you okay bud? Ordinarily you'd be willing to backup your statements. Some of us have come to expect and look forward to that from you. C'Mon, don't back out on us now.
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Am I understanding this correctly - "When turning in, the turn should be initated on a closed throttle and then rolled on evenly through the turn".
Yep. You got it.
Once you reach the desired lean angle, stop pushing on the inside bar and smoothly roll on the throttle.
Closed throttle on turn-in???? Whatever happened to turning in at maintenance throttle?
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Okay, a confession: I've crashed every way possible except highside. I'd like to avoid it , but considering that it's on my mind I'm probably creating the situation by my focus.
Now that's out of the way, I've noticed that I can get on the gas while at full lean and feel for traction, being aware of not breaking the tire loose.
What's the proper use of throttle if I were to experience breaking the rear loose at full lean?
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I don't konw, Jay. You're the one with the Dave Moss book. And I'm certainly no expert on the subject. What is this business with the swingarm angle?
He said something about 11-12.5 degrees for a racebike. All I know is that he said you 'don't want the swingarm to go flat when you get on the gas' because "the geometry stops working for you and begins to work against you". He's a lot more technical than I am, but I enjoy trying to understand it. I just assumed that you could help me out a bit with your knowledge of the technical side of things.
I suppose one of these days I'll take a suspension seminar. I read about one that Dan Kyle did one awhile back, Paul Thede does them periodically, and Dave Moss does them once in awhile too.
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yes, Jay. You are right.
I didn't mean a measured half, simply the point that allows enough head room in each direction so as to not top out or bottom out when riding.
As for choosing a spring, it can be something of a personal preference which can vary with riding type, style and/or conditions. Choosing one that allows the minimum amount of pre-load necesary to capture the spring is one philosophy that I've found to be common. I'm sure there are others.
So I should be able to reduce preload a both ends, thereby giving me more overall height while maintaining geometry?
What's this business with swingarm angle?
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Ride height is about adjusting the overall geometry of the frame and steering head.
Pre-load, or more properly SAG, is about your "Q-point" or the place where your suspension lives without being acted upon by outside forces, ie. bumps in the road. Pre-loading your spring is setting the level where the shock (compressed only by your butt) lives between the bump stops (top and bottom) of your shock absorber by extending the shock more or less. Oddly enough, pre-loading the spring has nothing to do with the spring.
The spring is the spring and will compress the same amount to the same point when you sit on it no matter how much you pre-load it. It doesn't make your suspension stiffer or harder. So, you can pre-load and compress the spring to the same point as it would when you sit on it and there will be no sag. Or you can use less preload such that when you sit on it, the bike sags a lot. Your butt is still sitting at the same compression point on the spring no matter what you do. In reality, what you are doing is extending and compressing the shock. The bottom line is that you want the shock to be in the middle of its range when you sit on the bike so it doesn't bottom out or top out when you hit bumps in the road because that causes the tire to lose traction or even contact with the road because it can't move any further to absorb the bumps.
So, the more you have to pre-load the spring to get the right sag, the closer to binding the spring you are, the less potential movement the spring has. Ultimately, a straight rate spring reacts the same to the same forces no matter how far it is compressed, hence, a spring that is too soft at the top of the range is still too soft at the bottom. The more you have to pre-load the spring to not bottom out, the closer you get to topping out. The more you can stay away from either, the better off you are, the more ptoential your suspension has to absorb bumps, the more adjustability you have to fine tune things, the less you need to use damping to make up for soft spring and use it for what it is intended for and... the less you need to pre-load the spring to get the right sag, the less you alter ride height or the geometry of the bike.
So, ultimately, from a parametric point of view, no preload is best.
What does Dave Moss say about it?
From what I understood from your post, it's better to setup geometry with ride-height adjustments. However, the spring is what gives rebound potential. As the spring is compressed it wants to return (rebound) that energy somewhere, and that's where the rebound circuit come in-the attempt to regulate the rate at which that energy is transferred.
I'm not sure I agree with NO preload.
Not sure I agree with half either and I'll tell you why.
Most of the surface imperfections that will affect the rider are bumps. In theory there should be an equal number of bumps as are dips, but there just aren't and even if there were, they still don't have the same impact on the rider's feel of the road surface.
I agree with you that we need the potential of the travel available to us. In my humble opinion (grain of salt) in a ideal setup suspension we should use 99.9% of travel at the hardest braking/bumps/acceleration points that we will ever encounter on that track on that day during an event. The softest spring that will give us this, and still give geometry range appropriate to maintain vehicle control will be best. The damping circuits would then only be used to control the movement artifacts that present themselves.
Now onto your 1/2:
Wouldn't about 2/3s work better? Considering that we see more bumps and that we wouldn't need as much top out potential.
Throw me a bone here, I'm trying to get all this straight in my head.
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If you have the ability to adjust ride height directly, then do so. You don't want to compromise your top out/bottom out head room by adjusting pre-load for ride height. Adjust pre-load to keep yourself centered in the travel and leave it there (except two up).
Thanks for the quick response Racer. I had hoped to bait you into this discussion :-)
So you're saying that I should crunch the spring about 1/2 way? What's this business about setting up a bike with enough spring to eliminate the need for preload that I've heard/ read so much about?
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Purely a theoretical discussion but this is something that has been bugging me for the longest:
I’ve long since been curious to learn more about adjusting suspension and chassis geometry. To learn more, I bought Dave Moss’ Intro to Sportbike suspension DVD. At the time I purchased it, I didn’t feel that it was an entry level DVD. I’ve watched it several times over about 1½ year’s time and feel that I could now at least have a decent conversation about the subject.
(My review here http://www.cbrforum.com/m_268287/tm.htm)
One thing I’ve learned is that setting sag is so important and should be done first. When I had my suspension done last year, I just installed it and rode away. I tweaked rear preload a bit, but only a when going to 2 up and I constantly struggled to get it back.
I noticed that I liked the feeling from having the rear set higher than it was on the stock suspension (a healthy 220 fully dressed). Well, I have a proper suspension now. How will I know when I should raise the clevis on my Ohlins shock to give more ride height versus adding preload (we’re talking 1 up riding here)? What are the pros/cons of each?
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I've noticed that he does it when he needs to go in deep. I saw him do it and overshoot his turn-in. Maybe it's a Rossi SR (LOL) and others (Pedrosa) are now emulating The Doctor .
Did anyone notice him doing it again at the Valencia race? Did anyone notice Casey Stoner also doing it? Did anyone notice that it was clearly during Oh- Sh** moments?
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JBird,
Is the theory clear on the downshifting and why/how?
C
Sure, I can see a couple benefits. I guess I just decided to triage learning it.
What benefits do you see?
What do you mean by "triage learning it"?
I can imagine that it would produce a smoother downshift, by giving less chance to get it wrong and getting rear wheel hop (done that). I can also see the benefit for the competitor in less time. In theory it should be gentler on the transmission. So it seems a superior way of downshifting with no ill side effects.
On the other hand, I've learned using the clutch so well, that it's probably my best mastered skill (LOL) and I don't need to spend but a few pennies on the control movements to bang 3 quick downshifts.
To triage learning to clutchless downshift means that I have other learning priorities that take precedence and I'd rather give them the attention and leave this to another time. It doesn't mean that I'll never get around to it, just not now.
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I was checking out a 2002 Repsol CBR954 Fireblade that came into the shop today and was surprised to find that, sure enough, the sticker on the swingarm specified 42 psi rear and 36 psi front for "normal" loads and the same pressures for heavy loads. Huh. I'm going to pursue this as far as I can to find out why they specify the same pressures for light or heavy loads.
I suppose if you are running street tires designed to run at lower temp's, say with a high percentage of silica in the compound, then the temp of the compound doesn't matter. However, I know the tire will deform and flex more under a heavier load, so, I have to wonder why. Why have the tire so hard under a light load? Will it really last longer? Won't the traction be affected? I suppose the smaller contact patch will manage a lighter load. But, I still think a lower pressure and larger contact patch will allow better traction.
OEM spec for my 2002 F4i is 36/42. Doesn't specify Max/min or anything else. Let's remember that manufacturers try to make this as simple as possible for the squidly and the egghead types alike.
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I think tire wear and traction are inversely proportional. In other words, you have to sacrifice one for the other.
As stated earlier, I have traction adequate for the type and environment (street) of riding that I do. When I go to the track, I change the pressures.
That's right, you did say that earlier. I'm a bit greedy, I like a lot of traction and some to spare
CF
I also reduce pressure in cooler weather.
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JBird,
Is the theory clear on the downshifting and why/how?
C
Sure, I can see a couple benefits. I guess I just decided to triage learning it.
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Seems there's a problem with write permissions on the forum's software. You may want to have the IT guys contact the vendor about it.
What are you referring to specifically?
BTW board is now up to v2.3.6 hopefully that will help with some things.
I hope that what we're seeing regarding spam is an improvement. By no means is it fool proof, or to the point of "set it and forget it". Take a look at the IP.Board forums. There are several strategies there other admins have posted for dealing with SPAM issues on this software. If you need any help, PM me and leave a phone number, or I'll send mine.
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No to the inertia thing.
He only sticks his leg out when he's doing a hairbrained passing manuever deep into the corner.
I doubt there is a technical reason he does it. Let's remember that EVERYTHING Rossi does is not magic. :-)
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... And, there are plenty of instances during normal street riding when downshifting doesn't include hard braking or riding in the powerband. I don't follow what you mean about bouncing off the rev limiter. MOST normal street riding doesn't happen near redline at all.
LOL, you def. don't want to ride in my part of town LOLOLOLOL
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Tire flexion builds heat.
Less pressure increases flexion and increases heat. Higher pressure reduces flexion and reduces heat.
In any case, typical street riding won't build enough heat anyway. That's why I recommend not running track tires on the street. It's basically pointless. Unless you are pushing hard enough to be dragging your knee, you won't build or maintain enough heat to activate a track compound. You just wear out your tires faster.
Ah, you're right...I run the higher pressure to reduce tire wear...seems to be working.
Back to one of the original points, better tire wear, but better traction?
CF
I think tire wear and traction are inversely proportional. In other words, you have to sacrifice one for the other.
As stated earlier, I have traction adequate for the type and environment (street) of riding that I do. When I go to the track, I change the pressures.
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Hmmmm....this concept of downshifting w/o braking sounds fishy to me, at least for the street rider. Unless you suggesting that he ride somewhere that would allow the time for the off-throttle action to slow the bike enough so that when the downshift is executed it doesn't bump the rev limiter (or worse).
Hubbard- Yes, always as a rule, execute one full downshift (including releasing the clutch) per downshift. Once you learn it well, you can brake and bang 3 successive downshifts and then turn-in. It's so sweet that it'll give you [iNSERT OWN IDEAS HERE].
Hello All....
in Cornering and Techniques
Posted
I never said that I didn't have formalized training, just wasn't CSS. Thank you for the advice but the point of my posting that wasn't to personalize. I think you know that I have a lot of respect for you, but I'd appreciate if we stick to debating the merits/demerits of the ideas and not the credentials of the speaker.