Steve M

Woo Hoo! Way to go Jaime!

I have been operating under the premise that trail braking means coming off the brakes after the initial steering input. There are a couple of internet sites which offer definitions (see link to Sportrider below - not that they are an authority or anything, but I figure we need to pick a definition and go with it). So, I figure that if you begin your steering input before you are completely off the brakes, then you are trail braking to some degree. This definition would include coming off the brakes while making the steering input or come off the brakes after steering is complete. Comments? Agree, disagree? http://www.sportrider.com/ride/146_9508_rss/

Congratulations Will! You give hope to the rest of us 40 somethings!!!

I think it depends on a number of factors like how hard you are riding, your skill level, track and weather conditions and a host of other factors that I am probably not even aware of. For me, I almost always race on fresh tires. The reason being that while racing, I am asking a lot more of the tires than when I am just track riding or teaching. Either way, I really try to listen to what the tires are trying to tell me. I usually have a pretty good idea of when they are done. I ride on Dunlops and they tend to slide pretty smoothly and predictably when they are fresh. After they get baked, they start snapping around and become pretty unpredictable. I think you are wise not to focus too much on the wear bar though. Learn to feel the tires and how they perform. One other thing. Notice how the bike turns when tires start to fade. I notice that when my front tire starts getting long in the tooth, it becomes more difficult to control the rate at which I add lean angle (as if the bike just falls into a lean, often times going further than I really wanted it to go causing me to make a mid corner correction).

Yeah - Yates gave a great interview to Speed last summer regarding this subject. He said he tries to prevent sliding the back before corners by managing the clutch, but at Yates' level it must be really difficult keeping the back end in line. I can think of a couple good candidates for trailing the brakes, but the corner I do it most often is a decreasing radius turn out here in California (Button Willow). I doubt Will trails there either, but it seems to work for me (especially when someone tries to low line up the inside of me). This string really got me to thinking about [trail] braking, so this past week at Laguna I really thought about my braking and came away with some really good observations. I did try trailing more here and there, and generally, I felt more comfortable finishing my braking before the steering input. Another observation I have is it is very important for me to release the brakes smoothly. Qucikly for sure, but smoothly. I never just release the brakes by letting the lever "pop" out of my hand. As Keith and Will point out though, the time between releasing the brakes completely and turning the bike is so short that I think I usually error one way or the other (release the brakes too soon or too late). Since I have been really thinking of this, I have already noticed improvements. Maybe we can convince Keith to develop a level IV braking drill for us

Paab - If the front tire is sliding, for all intents and purposes it has used up all available traction. At some level of riding (like GP) riders can and do purposely push or slide their front tires. Keith has some discussion on this in Twist II Chapter 17 (I think - I don't have the book in front of me at the moment). For the rest of us mortals though, attempting to brake while the front is pushing is ?a very delicate business?. The point is, the rider sliding his front (regardless of speed) has indeed reached his limit of traction (and therefore speed) for that particular turn, on that bike, on those tires and at that very point in time. Can someone else go through the same turn much faster? Sure. The same rider may go through the turn much faster on the next lap. But at the moment the tire begins sliding, for all intents and purposes there is no more available traction remaining for braking or additional lean. There may be a miscommunication here. I think we need to define the term trail braking. To me, trailing the brakes means that you continue on the brakes after you have made a steering input (I checked this on an unrelated website and it seems to be a consistent definition). Certainly, one must always release the brakes smoothly so as not to unnecessarily upset the suspension. However, this can be done very quickly, and so long as it is completed prior to the steering input, I do not think you are trailing the brakes. So, can you trail the brakes deep into the turn? Sure. Can you finish your braking while in a straight line, then turn the bike? Sure. You have identified the very purpose of the original post. Which do you do, and why? Or, do you trail for some turns and not others? Do you trail in different circumstances? I am interested to hear what you do and why you do it. By the way, Ballistic is insanely fast, and typically does not trail brake. He instead finishes his braking in a straight line (presumable right to the limit of traction), then turns the bike extremely quickly (again, presumably at the limit of traction). This technique works very well for him as he just crushed the all time lap record at Streets of Willow Springs on (I think) a production 636 with DOT tires. I hope you get a chance to ride with him some time ? it is a real treat to watch ? so long as you can keep him in view (which is no small task). Steve

So, I was chatting with Tony Faole (suspension guru - he is to motorcycle suspension what Keith is to motorcycle riding) today and I presented this question to him. He agrees with us on this point (balancing the suspension between braking and turning forces). Of course, this may not be the fastest way through every turn, and the line you take through a given turn will vary depending if and how much you brake [into the turn]. Tony also explained why the bike feels so heavy while on the brakes but I am afraid that if I try to repeat what he said I will mess it up. What I do know is that the forces required to turn the bike are impacted by the forces (inertial forces?) trying to keep the bike going in a straight line combined with weight transfer from heavy braking. So, there appears to be a trade-off. If you trail the brakes into the turn, you will not be able to turn the bike as quickly, thus you may not be able to hold the line you want, you may need more lean angle, and sacrifice some mid corner speed (not to mention all the other cons we identified above). However, you may gain a higher entry speed, and you may be able to maintain a more stable suspension.

It looks like the con list is growing faster than the pro list so I will through a "potential" pro out for discussion. Consider the attitude of the bike when under braking. The front is loaded and the front suspension compressed. If you wait until you are fully off the brakes before you turn the bike, the suspension unloads, only to load again (from cornering forces). It would seem theoretically possible to begin the turn while the suspension is still compressed (to some degree) while trailing off the brakes. The desired effect would be to eliminate the additional compression from cornering forces. Thoughts?

Paab, Good start to the list. As for me, I think overtaking and defending are probably the best reasons for trail braking but I do not understand "Bike turns in better (geometry)". Maybe it is just certain corners or maybe it is my application of the controls, but when I make turn inputs while braking, my bike feels heavy and I do not feel like I can turn it as quickly, or get on the gas as soon, thus not allowing me to keep a tight line. Like you pointed out, it seems like when I try to carry more speed at the entry of the turn I often sacrifice corner speed and the all important exit speed. A couple of things I would like to add: Stability: While on the brakes the front is loaded (the suspension is not balanced) and the bike is less stable. Suspension: While on the brakes the suspension is compressed less compliant and less able to deal with bumps. Lean angle: The slower I turn the bike, the more lean angle is required (all else being equal). Radius: The slower I turn the bike the tighter the radius.

I absolutely agree with Cobie. I spent two days last week at a local track, and on the second day all I did was work on level 1 drills (three of them to be exact). Each session I went out with a specific plan and worked on only one thing. And guess what? I was riding plenty fast. I think you will find this true of most sports. The basics are so, so important!

That sounds like good advice. I have found that in turns where I need a really quick turn trail braking does not seem helpful (say turn 11 at T-Hill). In fact, I think a lot of guys low side there because they simply over-load the front trying to trail it in. To me, it is much quicker through the turn if you complete your braking and flick the bike very quickly. This seems to agree with Stuman's comment regarding long straights (there is a long straignt after the 11-13 chicane). I have also found that trail braking works really well at Button Willow AFM turn (hugely decreasing radius). It seems that you can go much faster and deeper by gently releasing brake as you go into the turn. Not to mention the fact that you don't, you have a better chance of getting passed going in to the turn.

No doubt about Edwards - especially last season and the moves he put on Bayless at Imola. That has to be one of my favorite all-time races. Still, after such promising testing last winter it just seemed that he and Aprillia could not figure out their bike. I agree that it will be very cool next year with Edwards back on a honda. It is going to be a fantastic MotoGP season. Now only to get a race in the US......

Check out the calendar for California dates. OK, so the season is coming to a close and there are not many dates left, but keep the bookmark for next season. Also, note that the CSS two-day camp at Infineon is in December, not November! http://www.biketweakers.com/trackcalendar.html

Well, right now I just have to go with Rossi. I really like the rivalry between Rossi and Biaggi, and I love watching as Rossi torments poor Max, trying to force a mistake. There is a lot of chat regarding Rossi on the M1 verses Biaggi on the RC211V, but I still have to go with Rossi next year. The guy is just too friggin' good!

OK - Tell the truth. Do you trail brake, and under what circumstances do you do so? Also, do you think there are certain circumstances that warrant trailing the brakes into a turn, and are there types of turns that lend themselves to trail braking (more than others)?

It is very hard to say which is my favorate as there are so many great tracks. Laguna is local to me so I am a bit biased but I can say that this year I had the most fun at Black Hawk Farms. It is a small town track, but dang is it fun to ride!