Bullet
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Posts posted by Bullet
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Hi Trixie,
The physical controls of the bike are the same certainly, brakes, gears etc are all exactly in the same place and so that would definitely assist with the process of learning to ride. The styles of riding are very different in many respects, for example on a dirt bike you're mainly stood up on the pegs to move your weight around the bike, were on a road bike your sat on the seat.
Dirt bikes have knobbly tires that dig into the surface and and you can throw the bike around underneath you getting traction, road bikes we attempt to keep them as upright as we can.
The big benefits of learning to ride a dirt bike is you can learn a great deal about traction, sliding a bike and throttle control, that would translate over onto high speed bike riding in the future for sure, and of course, it would be tremendous fun to ride one around with your friends, getting dirty and having an opportunity to ride of course.
So, I guess whilst they're different in many respects, there are things that you would learn that would carry over for when your ready to ride on the road, and you'd have a bloody good laugh at moderate speeds.
Hope that helps.
Bullet
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- knowing what speed you should be going and at what point,
One skill I have no handle on is knowing where my traction limits are. Am I at the edge of having the tires slip out from underneath me?
Steve,
Interesting points. Your the second person to say "knowing what speed I should going at what point" and i'm trying to discover how people set this? Claude also noted this earlier, and am trying to gauge what defines this for you?
With respect you to your question on traction limits, we can assist you with understanding that, but how about you start another seperate thread and we can try and help you with that a little. Could also let us know which levels you've done too?
Bullet
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Hi Trixie,
Welcome to the forum, where you will no doubt find lots of great people, lots of amazing information, and with luck you'll improve your riding along the way.
where are you from, what you ride, how long you been riding?
Bullet
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Hi, all, never posted here before but top priority for me is setting my corner entry speed. If I come into the corner too slow I tend to get greedy on the exit and if I come into fast it sets off my panic buttons and I go into self preservation mode.
Hi claude,
Thanks for joining us and sharing your thoughts. Everyone is welcome in these threads, and peoples thoughts and opinions are very welcome as it helps others as their are bound to be others in the same place as you.
How do you know when you've set corner speed correctly? and what enables you to get it right time and time again?
Bullet
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You're very welcome mate. Keep working at it, takes time, but it's a journey!
Bullet
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Yes, I am headed to Barber a little later in the day for two days of well deserved track time with my NESBA brothers and sisters. The weather maybe a little warm but I am expecting good things from my Dunlop tires and a hot track..I need to set a personal best this weekend! I will need a 1:40 or better to place in the Senior Superbike class at the WERA Nationals in September. GET R DONE!
Good luck with it mate, make sure you keep it shiny side up though eh?
Let us know how you get on with experimenting with tyre pressures.
Bullet
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Colin Edwards?
He doesn't ride the CSS way, certainly ain't got the body position from us anyway.
I'm thinking maybe Toseland actually.
Bullet
Toseland took the school as a teenager at Cadwell.
OK, here's a hint: mid-90's won his 2nd world title.
CF
Like has been posted, Fogarty, not in a million years way too arrogant for help. Must be Doug Polen then, I know he's done loads with Keith.
Bullet
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Hi All,
I'm from Canberra (Australia) and I've just joined this site today. It's great to see that it's quite active.
First time I'd ever heard of track days was two and half years ago. Bought a CBR600F4 from a mate. I'd never even sat on a sportsbike let alone ride one on a race track so I figured I'd better do a Superbike School to learn how to ride one.
Crashed in the second session from over-enthusiasm (nobody told me that these things go down!). Got a real roasting from my coach, who basically told me to tone it down and concentrate on learning.
Anyway, as has probably happened to everyone on this site, I have become totally and incurably addicted to motorbikes and track days.
Since that first outing, I've now done Levels Two and Three of the Superbike Schools as well as quite a few trackdays. I feel like I just can't get enough information about riding bikes. Really keen to learn, learn, learn. And that's my reason for joining this site. I'm hoping that, by sharing what we know, we'll help each other to become much better riders and enjoy even more what we're addicted to.
I did my Superbike Schools and my ride days at Eastern Creek (Sydney) and Phillip Island (love both tracks).
My ultimate holiday would be to do a ride-day tour of all the MotoGP tracks (Dream on!!!!)
Anyway, I'm really glad I found out about this site and I'm really looking forward to getting to know you all online.
Cheers,
Taras
Hi Taras,
Welcome to the site my friend, your part of the family and we like students to share their knoweldge and learnings and experience with other students. You'll find there are lots of great contributors on the site with some excellent experience all happy to partake in helping everyone out.
we're all joined by a common love of motorbikes, improving our skills and sharing keith et al's fantastic work on making the complexity of riding a bike into smaller manageable chunks that mere mortals can understand.
Keep posting and sharing your thoughts, I'm sure you'll be engaged and you might even pick a few things up now and again along the way.
Bullet
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Bullet--OK, what's a "bacon buttie?"
I'm not going to even try.
CF
Behold, the Bacon buttie awaits... http://homepage.mac.com/theconfuzed1/.Pict...on_sandwich.jpg
We start every school day with one.
B
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Does 70% mean that you're not alarming SRs? I'm not sure as I would think SRs diminish with improving skill and become less reliable.
Is it only speed that gets your SR's going? If not only that, what other things, and can you control them all?
Bullet
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Cobie,
the factory recommendation is 31 cold for the front. I checked my tire pressure before I removed the tire warmer for crash run and the front tire pressure was 36 psi. I am sure they got hotter and harder after 10 laps. I thought it was high myself. I dont feel comfortable running that high of a pressure in a hot tire.
That does seem very high. In the UK we're running GP Racers at something like 27F and 25R cold (which does seem very low, but they come up so high. I personally run Pirelli slicks on my own bike, and I run 27F and 26.5R, and they're like glue. You'd have to think that 31 on a new tyre like that must be high.
Have you tested the pressure when you come off a hot session? I'd think it should be about 35 when off the track, not of warmers?
Bullet
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Yeah thats what its really used for, though it does look cool. I have to confess I'm not a massive knee dragger, and I can make a set of knee sliders last me years. I lean the bike over, get my gauge, and then pull my knee in mostly. On the road, I'd completely forget about it, in fact, I'd completely forget about till you get your body position sorted, as without good body position, (i.e. riding very twisted), you need a lot of lean angle. I'd think of it as something that either will, or won't happen, it won't make you faster in anyway shape or form and it can be a big distraction.
The answer to your why do I go fast question as we all know is because its great fun, it's challenging and it makes you feel very alive.
Bullet.
SO getting one's knee down is really to be a guage for one self as to how far you can still go until you push your bike to far over? Something that i should not worry about at all?I know excately how it sounds, it sounds like a little kid stubbornly wanting something and will not rest until its done, but fact is i dont want it to be a MUST do thing, but rather is it neccesary to do? type of thing.
I mean i constantly ask myself what is it that drives me to go fast into a turn, go fast on the bike, why do i ride a motorbike in the first place etc...and why do i sometimes feel that i have to win or atleast be a close second if i am racing someone somewhere?
Apologies for gettin so philosophical
Thx for info.
I know people who race who hardly ever get a knee down and are not affected by that fact at all. Shawna Aron who retired two years ago from WCC and Am600 in Canada has posted on other Forums that she rarely touches a knee.YRMV.
Kevin
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Hi mate,
No your not wrong about that, your brain isn't fried at all. You read it right, and you do exactly as you defined it. Once you've started to turn the bike, there is a period when your off the throttle, and the weight is a little more onto the front for sure. It's not as bad trail braking, and the severity of the turn, camber and things can influence exactly how much weight you have on the front for sure.
So the big question is, when do you come back onto the throttle..? Well, if you read pages 24 and 25 of TW2, it will be revealed to you.
Bullet
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Colin Edwards?
He doesn't ride the CSS way, certainly ain't got the body position from us anyway.
I'm thinking maybe Toseland actually.
Bullet
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It's used by riders who are really in sync with their bikes to tell them they've just about reached the limit of their bike. You can see some riders, like Rossi and Lascourz (?) doing it a lot. You'll be able to see some riders in MotoGP are 55 degrees leaned and don't have their knee down. They know how far out to have their knee, and scraping it tells them that they've max'ed out their lean angle (63-65 degrees for Pedrosa).
Most stick it out to gage as they go. They'll let it hang, and when it grabs, it'll give them an idea of how much more clearance they have. Knee down can act as a gage for lean angle, and helps a rider use it as a crutch, so to speak, in certain instances.
Also, as mentioned above, it never gets old. After a long hiatus from the track when I start dragging knee again I can't help but giggle under my helmet. Wait till you have to buy new ones.
http://resources.motogp.com/files/images/x...01.original.jpg
I reckon thats about as close to textbook on the definition on the "why".
Excellent post there Hubbard.
Bullet
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For sure covering a lot of ground in this thread.
Let's take a look at one thing discussed earlier--what is the reason for the 40 front, 60 rear, what on the motorcycle dictates that this is approximately the correct number(s)?
CF
I believe the reason for the 40 front, 60 rear is to achieve the best contact patch for both tyres and that it would be done by opening the throttle! It's once you have initially cracked open the throttle, the book states that once the throttle is cracked on, it is rolled on evenly, smoothly, and constantly throughout the remainder of the turn! So while cracking open the throttle sets the tyres contact patches how do you know how hard or not you can roll on the throttle? And while rolling on throughout the turn are you not moving more weight to the rear effectively unloading the front?
Hey bobby,
If you look at TW2 page 7, section on "light touch", it describes the definition of how much and what happens if you put on too much too soon.
Have a read, see if that covers it of for you mate.
Bullet
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mmm, and i thought i read Twist 2 well enough. Honestly even reading a hundred times i still have so many question. So many things i think i understand but dont. I seriously need help. Im not saying this cause i feel unsafe or riding myself scared here, i just WANT/NEED to know the best way to ride fast/safely.
Did you find what I meant, and it made sense?
If there is any consolation for you my friend, we've all got lots to learn. Being a coach is just a step on the journey of learning. We're constantly adding more to the info bank, and you just keep working at it. I've read twist at least 12 times, and I still learn things. I think if you probably asked Keith, Cobie et al, they'd tell you they're still picking up things as they go as well, and they've been riding for a long old time. (
).Bullet
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Actually, now with you lot going on about how great the weather is in US, and now in SA, I'm going to change my mind and declare I love UK weather! It's the best!
If for no other reason that with it being wet on occasion I get to experiment with my feel for traction, and spinning up the rear wheel coming of a corner on a standard 600 is pretty cool, and you can't do that in your tropical sunshine can ya? eh? No! thats right you can't. Not so smug now eh? Me, I'll stick with the highs and lows of british weather ta! Bullet
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Been dying to ask this question. I just read Voixtremes post and well saw this pic of him.
http://img29.imageshack.us/i/dsc9157large.jpg/
why is it that his knee is not touching the ground. Im sure its because he's finished turning(accelerating allready) in this instance and sure he can get his knee down but ive ridden low in corner leaned off the bike, knee stretched out and nothing no contact. I have seen pics of guys who's bikes are at far less lean angle but theyre knees are down on the asphalt.
how come?
The usual answer is that usually that the riders body position isn't quite right. Most riders that first learn to hang off in an attempt to knee down have a tendency to a) lean off the bike to far or
they rotate around the tank. When you do the latter, it actually turns your knee downwards and into the bike rather down at the floor. I'd put reasonable money on the former being the cause myself, though without seeing, its hard to really tell.Bullet
Honestly it just felt more comfortable for me to hang off 'tighter" to the bike in that turn because of its speed. I am not sure if that is the proper technique or not though, it just felt best for me in that particular turn to keep everything tucked in.
do you normally knee down, but didn't here? I'd buy that by the way, not everyone does, or needs to.
The more important to knee down is really what it's used for, apart from looking absolutely fab in those pictures on your desktop or Wall to impress all your non biking mates about how cool you are!
Bullet
I had my knee down consistently all throughout the day, just never in that turn. Was actually quite proud of myself, got to where i was using it as a gauge in the turns and would expect it to touch down at the same spot each lap. (it was my 1st track day
)Rightly so, rights of passage that is my friend. Welcome to the knee down hall of fame! It never gets too tired to be honest!
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Been dying to ask this question. I just read Voixtremes post and well saw this pic of him.
http://img29.imageshack.us/i/dsc9157large.jpg/
why is it that his knee is not touching the ground. Im sure its because he's finished turning(accelerating allready) in this instance and sure he can get his knee down but ive ridden low in corner leaned off the bike, knee stretched out and nothing no contact. I have seen pics of guys who's bikes are at far less lean angle but theyre knees are down on the asphalt.
how come?
The usual answer is that usually that the riders body position isn't quite right. Most riders that first learn to hang off in an attempt to knee down have a tendency to a) lean off the bike to far or
they rotate around the tank. When you do the latter, it actually turns your knee downwards and into the bike rather down at the floor. I'd put reasonable money on the former being the cause myself, though without seeing, its hard to really tell.Bullet
Honestly it just felt more comfortable for me to hang off 'tighter" to the bike in that turn because of its speed. I am not sure if that is the proper technique or not though, it just felt best for me in that particular turn to keep everything tucked in.
do you normally knee down, but didn't here? I'd buy that by the way, not everyone does, or needs to.
The more important to knee down is really what it's used for, apart from looking absolutely fab in those pictures on your desktop or Wall to impress all your non biking mates about how cool you are!
Bullet
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In Twist 2, it says all about throttle on/off and turn point. I get that but actually not really know how to apply it to its fullest yet.
And yes I have never done a CSS but speaking to Appanna and i'll definately be doing one early next year (hopefully
)So my question is, at the Turn point when your braking is done and your off the throttle, dipping the bike in for the corner, when excately do you apply the throttle to get the 60/40 (its suppose to read 40front/60rear) balance going?
When you watch the onboard cams of the MotoGP guys, you can clearly hear they brake, throw it into the corner coast with no throttle at all allmost all the way to the apex (depending on the corner but most of the times) and then allmost straight on the throttle. I know they have superior bikes and tires so im not going to pretend i can do this. But this is allmost contradictory to Twist 2 surely?
I dont understand the link between the brake/off the throttle/turn point entry/ on throttle rule. Most of the times i try not to brake (rather use engine braking) to settle the suspension, gear down to keep the bike in the revs and be on the throttle from just after ive leaned it into the corner. THis however brings me to the SR factor of going wide/drifting which luckily i allmost never do.
Ive noticed that my SR is definately my holding back factor, that and the fact that my bike is my transport and dont want to ditch it.
Hi firebeast,
If you look at Twist of the Wrist 2, page 29, diagrams 1 and 2, it explains this, and shows some diagrams. should help understand the point your asking about.
With respect to the MotoGP boys, as we've discussed, they're trail braking, so although they're off the throttle, they're on the brakes in many cases right upto the Apex, and then they're back to the throttle, following the same old rule we are. The slght difference they do have though is they have complex electronics to lean on, so application may be a little more abrupt than say you or I on our street bikes might be able to get away with.
Bullet
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Been dying to ask this question. I just read Voixtremes post and well saw this pic of him.
http://img29.imageshack.us/i/dsc9157large.jpg/
why is it that his knee is not touching the ground. Im sure its because he's finished turning(accelerating allready) in this instance and sure he can get his knee down but ive ridden low in corner leaned off the bike, knee stretched out and nothing no contact. I have seen pics of guys who's bikes are at far less lean angle but theyre knees are down on the asphalt.
how come?
The usual answer is that usually that the riders body position isn't quite right. Most riders that first learn to hang off in an attempt to knee down have a tendency to a) lean off the bike to far or
they rotate around the tank. When you do the latter, it actually turns your knee downwards and into the bike rather down at the floor. I'd put reasonable money on the former being the cause myself, though without seeing, its hard to really tell.Bullet
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Hey Hotfoot;
Not trying to interrupt a good dialogue, I do want to offer a shout out for your comment on the blind curve truck scenerio.
I have a series of quiet country roads I ride for a short while after work and in about thirty five miles I can practice a lot of our CSS training. Last night I am riding downhill into a series of blind curves (like a wider version of the Corkscrew and a tighter version of Rainey Curve at Laguna) and your reference to the truck jumps into my head. Now in the valley I start up the other side in a section that has a short chute followed by a 180 degree blind corner (imagine T2 at Sears Point as a 180) and just as I clear the blind section - I am staring at the back of a lumbering dump truck in the middle of my line. The day before you posted that example I took that same corner with my knee almost on the deck but last night, I dropped back to 70% and was able to manuver around the truck.
You never know how anything you post may make a difference to anyone else but this morning, me and my family thank you for that one.
Kevin
Wow, Kevin! I don't know what to say, other than I'm really glad you're OK, and thanks so much for posting this! Andy's right, it is an amazing feeling to know that this made such a difference for you. Do you suppose this is how the coaches feel, every day?
Glad your ok Kevin man, and it definitely brings home the point about giving yourself enough time and space to react on the road for sure.
As for how we feel everyday we do a school (remmeber most of us, (I can only speak for the UK), have day jobs, so we do this coz we love it really). You do get those really excellent days when you can see the improvement in your students, they're absolutely overwhelmed about their improvement and their really happy and have big smiles. Those days make it very special for sure. We do get some tough ones too though! Isn't all glam, rock and roll and bacon butties I can assure ya!
Keep smiling guys.
Bullet
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Good point Bullet. I am an abnormally flexible guy and this position is not uncomfortable for me. I feel I am getting better, transitioning quickly using knee to knee and setting up well in advance of the next turn. I have completed Levels 1 and 2 and have four days scheduled with CSB in August.
I think I see where you are going. I need to improve my lean angle much more? In lieu of a private internet lesson, shoud I just improve quick turn and sacrifice some hang off to increase corner speed? Thanks again for your assistance.
Hi jody,
It's clear you've worked very hard on improving it considerably since your first pictures for sure. Many riders do obsess about it a bit, though it's something thats the icing on the cake for improving lap times and speed, and is certainly of lower value in the overall puzzle than say the visual skills. Your body position certainly isn't bad, I think when you do level 3 you'll understand a little more and it will come together nicely for you.
I suggest you concentrate on working with your coaches when you next attend the school for level 3 to work on ironing out your body position. Your coach will be able to help much more than seeing a single photo, as that just a snapshot in time, and not the whole picture. (i.e. how you get into the corner, what you do mid turn, what you do coming off the turn)
Your lean angle will come with more speed as it's a consequence of line, speed and how sharp the turn is in essence. How you give yourself enough tima and space and the ablity to use that space and increase your speed you've already covered in level 2, and I'm afraid you'll just have keep working on it, get the visual timing we've taught you right, and in time you'll be able to use it better, you'll be comfortable carrying more speed into the turns. More speed, more lean essentially.
I'm not sure we really got a clear answer on the "why" we lean off, and the benefits it provides us, but as long you understand the "why" you're doing it, the "benefits it gives you" and you're comfortable with that, I'm happy.
Bullet
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If for no other reason that with it being wet on occasion I get to experiment with my feel for traction, and spinning up the rear wheel coming of a corner on a standard 600 is pretty cool, and you can't do that in your tropical sunshine can ya? eh? No! thats right you can't. Not so smug now eh? Me, I'll stick with the highs and lows of british weather ta! 
they rotate around the tank. When you do the latter, it actually turns your knee downwards and into the bike rather down at the floor. I'd put reasonable money on the former being the cause myself, though without seeing, its hard to really tell.
)
)
Hey There Cobie!
in School Questions/General Discussion
Posted
Thats a really excellent post from Kevin, and I'd just like to echo some of his thoughts and how things are run in the US with what goes on here in the UK also.
As you rightly said Kevin, all of the crew are excellent, regardless of who you have, you won't get anyone thats not able to move you forward in some way or other. When the crew pairings are done here in the UK, the level of riding experience that you have, say the amount of trackdays you do, whether you race and so on, are mapped up to the coach that you're like to get. This way, we ensure that you're likely to get the best experience you can from your days with us.
When students do multiple days, we rotate the student with different coaches, the reason is that as Kevin rightly pointed out, different coaches spot different things, and we all have different strengths and things that when we combine them together, we can really add a lot to your days, and you get several different perspectives and also slightly variations in approach, personality, styles etc that we all bring to the party as well.
Bullet