Bullet
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Posts posted by Bullet
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Then why brake at all? As I understand, the sole purpose of the brake lever for the track rider is the setting of entry speed. For a given turn and the desired line through that turn the entry speed is a (relative) maximum value. So if one can carry more speed and hold the line, then THIS is the proper entry speed for that turn, that rider, on that bike, at that turn point, etc.
And your point here seems to make a strong argument for the value of getting the entry correct, which I agree with; booger the entry and there's NO WAY you can fix the exit (LOL).
I'm not so sure about you, but approaching a turn at say 150mph plus, when I need to get around it maybe around 70mph, normally requires me to brake.. just a little..
SO, my question to you Hubbard, (as I seem to be answering all the questions here.... LOL), is what is it that determine's what is the right line for a turn anyway...? I think you'll find the answer it TW2, page 18.....!
Bullet
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I've been wondering the front tyre grip for a while. According to the TOTW-books there should be appx 60R/40F weight balance when cornering, which is to say slight throttle opening as per "Throttle Rule". From theoretical and mechanical point of view that makes sense as Keith writes...
However, after several discussions at the pit with the "fast" guys they are working _against_ to 60/40 -rule. They tend to load the front as much as possible e.g trail braking, body movement forward etc in order to load the front and make it "bite" better.
This is confusing me. I've lost the front twice (not with trail braking) and I've tried to follow Keith's rules but this conversation with faster guys is really bothering me. They do exactly opposite and with good results (fast lap times, no crashes). I try to follow TOTW and I crash; that's confusing...
What do you think? Any opinions?
I think you may be misinterpretating Keiths words here. When does Keith suggest you should be getting back to 60/40, with the throttle rule? What are you as a rider typically doing before this time? In this time, where is more of the weight? Does being of the throttle move the weight to the front? Does trail braking add more or less weight to this?
I also wonder what bike you have, what setup, and what tyres and pressure you're running ? I suspect that the really fast boys have super sticky tyres?
Bullet
I thought the principle was the same no matter whether the tyres were super sticky or sports tourers, unless of course you are refering to how the tyre performs before turn in, in which case then I agree the super sticky efforts will be able to withstand much higher forces during braking and decceleration, but I assume no matter what tyre your on after you have the bike steered you get on the throttle ASAP and achieve the 60-40 as described in the book?
Bobby
Exactly, it is....! The only difference in quicker riders and going much faster, is they brake for longer and deeper into the turn, and as you only come back to the throttle once you've finished braking, that period of coming back to the throttle is usually a little longer.
Make sense?
Bullet
Okay, I'll bit the 'bullet' so-to-speak (LOL).
I have to admit that on one level your answer seems dead-on, but on another level, it doesn't quite sit well with me; and I'd humbly suggest that it's over-simplified.
I've heard it said that trying to make up time braking is a bad-idea. And one can see why if the newbie rider hears this, they abandon the other points of effective riding and think, "just get in deeper" and I'll go faster. I suppose this is the bravado that Valentino Rossi was talking about when comparing the GP style of riding to Superbike style.
It always happens to me this.. I try my dammedest to keep it simple... but it just never happens...
Am I over simplfying it.. Yeah, a bit. Trying to make up time on the brakes can indeed be a bad idea, but lets consider which part of the turn is most important? The start, or the exit? The answer of course is the exit, we need to get back to gas to start driving that bike as quickly as we can, so if we decide or Mid Corner speed is X, my question to you, is there time to be made up scrubbing speed off past the turn point getting to X, or just being off the brakes coasting into the turn to get to X? The answer to that is indeed yes, of course there is, hence why MotoGP riders, etc, do so.
Are there problems with doing this, hell yeah, your chances of a low side are massively increased, as what are we doing here? Are we loading the front a lot and asking it to handle turning forces and braking forces.
The most important thing is this, we still need to get back to gas as soon as we can, and back on it hard at the very earliest opporunity, however, as we all know, you never get back to it hard until after the Apex in most cases, and you can gain time by braking not neccesarily that much later, but just carrying more speed into the earlier part of the turn and for longer.
Now, does that make sense..?
Bullet
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I've been wondering the front tyre grip for a while. According to the TOTW-books there should be appx 60R/40F weight balance when cornering, which is to say slight throttle opening as per "Throttle Rule". From theoretical and mechanical point of view that makes sense as Keith writes...
However, after several discussions at the pit with the "fast" guys they are working _against_ to 60/40 -rule. They tend to load the front as much as possible e.g trail braking, body movement forward etc in order to load the front and make it "bite" better.
This is confusing me. I've lost the front twice (not with trail braking) and I've tried to follow Keith's rules but this conversation with faster guys is really bothering me. They do exactly opposite and with good results (fast lap times, no crashes). I try to follow TOTW and I crash; that's confusing...
What do you think? Any opinions?
I think you may be misinterpretating Keiths words here. When does Keith suggest you should be getting back to 60/40, with the throttle rule? What are you as a rider typically doing before this time? In this time, where is more of the weight? Does being of the throttle move the weight to the front? Does trail braking add more or less weight to this?
I also wonder what bike you have, what setup, and what tyres and pressure you're running ? I suspect that the really fast boys have super sticky tyres?
Bullet
I thought the principle was the same no matter whether the tyres were super sticky or sports tourers, unless of course you are refering to how the tyre performs before turn in, in which case then I agree the super sticky efforts will be able to withstand much higher forces during braking and decceleration, but I assume no matter what tyre your on after you have the bike steered you get on the throttle ASAP and achieve the 60-40 as described in the book?
Bobby
Exactly, it is....! The only difference in quicker riders and going much faster, is they brake for longer and deeper into the turn, and as you only come back to the throttle once you've finished braking, that period of coming back to the throttle is usually a little longer.
Make sense?
Bullet
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I've been wondering the front tyre grip for a while. According to the TOTW-books there should be appx 60R/40F weight balance when cornering, which is to say slight throttle opening as per "Throttle Rule". From theoretical and mechanical point of view that makes sense as Keith writes...
However, after several discussions at the pit with the "fast" guys they are working _against_ to 60/40 -rule. They tend to load the front as much as possible e.g trail braking, body movement forward etc in order to load the front and make it "bite" better.
This is confusing me. I've lost the front twice (not with trail braking) and I've tried to follow Keith's rules but this conversation with faster guys is really bothering me. They do exactly opposite and with good results (fast lap times, no crashes). I try to follow TOTW and I crash; that's confusing...
What do you think? Any opinions?
I think you may be misinterpretating Keiths words here. When does Keith suggest you should be getting back to 60/40, with the throttle rule? What are you as a rider typically doing before this time? In this time, where is more of the weight? Does being of the throttle move the weight to the front? Does trail braking add more or less weight to this?
I also wonder what bike you have, what setup, and what tyres and pressure you're running ? I suspect that the really fast boys have super sticky tyres?
Bullet
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Hey guys I don't race or anything (yet!), but I always hang around the track on raceday and I was talking to this one guy that was planning on writing a book on motorcycle racing techniques.
He told me the reason some of the guys go really fast for a few laps and then slow down considerably (from leading the pack to being ditched in 5th place), is because the longer a race goes on the more we think about the corner we just took. My local track doesn't have a long straightaway so there aren't any breaks, therefore our mind "lags" so behind that it makes our performance worse and worse. Eventually, we'll probably be entering corners while our mind wanders a few corners away?
I don't quite understand this concept, and I sure as heck didn't find it in twist of the wrist either. Could some of you pros explain this to me please?
I have to say, I'd suggest that the reason most racers slow down after a few laps is much more likely to be because they're not fit enough, and they start to phsyically lag behind and can't keep up the effort.
From my own personal experience, I can't say as I'm thinking much about the last corner, and just concentrate on the one thats coming up, getting into it, and getting back to gas as quickly as I can to start driving hard down that next straightaway. I don't plan several corners ahead, unless they're part of a sequence of turns that flow together. I do come through a corner and make a note of what I could do better next time, but it's a quick thing, (right, I'll do that differently next time because........).
That could be a great example of attention drifting onto unneccesary things, and detracting from whats important, (i.e. the now) and slowing a rider down?
What does everyone else think about when they're at 90% or more on a trackday or in a race situation?
Bullet
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Steel framed 600's? Which late model sportbikes are steel framed, competitive, and easy to get parts that you speak of?
CBR600 FV's and below are the most used over here in the UK, You can also get Thundercats, and Kwak ZX6R's too. They're hardly the worlds most predigious machines, but with a race tune, it's possible to get 110-115bhp at the rear wheel out of them, so they go at least as well as latest 600's do.
Bullet
I don't think we have any cbr600 fv's here in Canada or those other bikes (except for the zx6r, but I don't know which are steel framed). I already posted a similar thread on another "local forum", but I think more than likely I'll probably end up getting an SV650. I'm just really worried that I won't be able to run in as many categories as I'd like to, to gain more racing experience.
If I was you my friend, I'd take the advice of others, see what racing categories you can enter in your local clubs, and buy something thats best suited for your ability and for a little growth.
You could take the attitude that you can buy a bike for this next year, and then look to upgrade onto something newer the following year, but thats a decision you'll need to take.
Personally, whilst an SV650 is a good bike, you'll soon outgrow it's performance, and the contrast between one of those and even a 600 supersport bike is indeed dramatic.
Have a look at the club racing categories, then, maybe go down and speak to people there, see what the general consensus of the series is, how well attended the classes are, etc, etc. You may well find your happy to race a SV for many years, and just learn to ride better?
Bullet
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I'm working all summer (seemingly endlessly) at getting weight off the bars, keeping speed while going into corners, and my new favorite in BP, OPENING MY HIPS TO THE TURN!! It's a great feeling, and whether it makes me faster or not, I won't know until the tracks open back up, but I feel much more comfortable going into corners.
So here is a question for you Hubbard....? Have you found that by opening your hips to the turn, it has helped with anything else as a reciprocal benefit...?
Bullet
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I've never thought about adjusting rearsets to lock in with my heal. I've been riding with stock pegs, and have to adjust to the bike using the balls of my feet, so I don't know the feeling.
Hey Hubbard,
Thats exactly the challenge I have with the Yamaha's we use in the UK. I have to do exactly what you describe. I'm moving myself onto the balls of my feet to get a really good lock into the bike. Sometimes, you just have to make a compromise to get a result, but clearly race rearsets are better, more adjustable, and most importantly for me, much gripper in the footbed area, thats probably the most important thing I've found, wet or dry, you've got reliable grip.
Bullet
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Pull up a chair fossil, lets sink a few!
Bullet
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What a world of difference. With my heels bing locked onto the bike I feel much much more comfortable. I feel solid on the bike and no problems of feet slipping off the pegs. I was able to put almost no weight on the handle bars. It even feels more natural, not sure why I wasn't doing this before. Thanks again for the helpful advice.
Bullet what's a proper beer? I hope nothing served at room temp.
Never understood that. Ice cold is much more refeshing. All joking aside Calsberg was one of my favorites while I was visiting. Even found a beer with my last name on it(McEwans). I would love to go back to the UK to do some trackdays. Cadwell is a track I've wanted to ride ever since seeing the mountain for the first time. Donnington is another that I would like to ride reminds me of Laguna as both follow the natural flow of the land, and both are world class tracks.Glad thats worked out well for you my friend, sometimes its the simplest of things that make such a difference! Keep at it, you'll soon not even be thinking about that now!
Whats a proper beer...? Well, McEwans, is an old mans drink, drunk by old men, in my opinion. You can't beat a good wife beater, (Stella Artois), or maybe Kronenberg. If I'm really keen, I'm quite keen on White Beer, (again comes from Beligum area), HoeGarden is just amazing stuff, though oddly, you're meant to drink with a lemon in it, oddly.. 3 Pints of that though, and you're anyones, I assure.
I have to say, there are some great beers in US as well, from my travels there with work, had some really, really great beers, though many of them are just the wrong colour, way too pale looking. That said, they all taste damn good eh?
Take it easy man
Bullet
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Chocadile,
You owe Bullet a beer as well, maybe he can show me how to properly drink a Guinness?
Nah, I'm just here to help out man.
Mate, if we ever meet up, you're more than welcome to buy me a guiness, or a proper beer. :-)
Bullet
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You're welcome, and essentially, you've got the picture now.. Often the reasons we do something aren't immediately obvious.
Take it easy, keep us posted.
Bullet
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After reading a post from dbtripple, I figured that I'd post a question that I've had for a while. After watching this vid with Nick Ienatsch and Ken Hill. Nick said he spent a lot of time with Ken getting his foot position correct and once Ken had it correct that it made a world of difference. My question, what is proper foot position? The whole video they don't show one clip of where his feet are. Can someone shed some light on this for me?
Well... there's a question... Do you think the foot position point is of more relevance, or as a consequence of getting locked onto the bike and keeping stable? Is foot position, or being locked on, something you're struggling with?
Bullet
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In level 1 at Silverstone recently, we were introduced to quick turns, and our instructor 'Mr Flash' informed us that quick turns can be executed at speed over 25 mph. If you are travelling at higher speeds, will this act to upset the suspension and possibly introduce a tank slapper ?
Is there an speed upper limit to doing quick turns ?
Hi Cameltoe,
Sorry I missed this.... Flash, top man...!
Ok, you can do quick turns at any speed you like over 25mph, and as long as you do them smoothly, and don't jump all over the bike, you will not induce any tank slappers, I assure you. The faster you go, the harder it gets to turn the bike and more the benefit you get from being able to quickly turn the bike.
Hope that answered your question, sorry it took sometime..
Bullet
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Steel framed 600's? Which late model sportbikes are steel framed, competitive, and easy to get parts that you speak of?
CBR600 FV's and below are the most used over here in the UK, You can also get Thundercats, and Kwak ZX6R's too. They're hardly the worlds most predigious machines, but with a race tune, it's possible to get 110-115bhp at the rear wheel out of them, so they go at least as well as latest 600's do.
Bullet
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I've finally got around to reading this thread and now I'll tell you why this isn't real in any way shape or form. Firstly, when the bike begins to turn, it of course starts to turn slowly (but it still steers), as it cannot get to it's required lean angle immediately whether that needs to be 41 degrees , 20, or whatever of lean angle. A corner taken on a motorbike, i.e. the line it takes, doesn't look like a nicely drawn radius (with a compass) when you look at the actual path the motor bike takes.
Secondly, the line and lean angle thats required differs dependant on the mass of the bike and the rider on the bike. This is one of the reasons little small GP bikes like 125's can have massive corner speed, yet a sports tourer has to go say 40% of that speed, even if they can hold exact same lean angle.
So I think in summary his theroy is completely mute!
Bullet
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That boy Rossi, what a big Joker he is!
He can say whatever he likes about this and that, and it doesn't have to be even remotely true in anyway, shape or form. He knows other riders will hear or read about it, and go and try it, exactly because they want what he has, and what he can do.
I wouldn't pay much attention to what he openly says in the press about this, less we not forget he's the master of mind play, and he must walk away from some of these interviews thinking to himself, "that'll mess them about for a little while"....
Bullet
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As Adam said, I don't think there is the uniform answer to the problem here. Yeah, you're going to be nervous, but I always found taking deep breaths on the grid works. Trying to put my attention onto my starting revs, making sure I'm thinking of the flag/lights clutch position etc, seems to help take my fultering nerves away a little. My heart still races terribly, but thats just adrenalin letting me know I'm still alive, and that can't be a bad thing can it...?
Bullet
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I'd add to what Hubbard has said here. If you just want to trackdays, you'll find something like an SV massively underpowered, they make about 75bhp, even with race kit and gearing changes, you might get to something like 85bhp, which is a massive difference over a 600 at something like 110bhp at the wheel, and a litre bike at something approaching 150bhp at the wheel.
If your planning on racing, SV racing is pretty cheap for sure, in the Uk there are many classes for it, minitwins is the category for it over here. Cheap cheerful racing, and everyone is running much the same. As a category it's certainly cheaper than 600's and definitely than 1000's in both running gear, tyres, chains, brakes etc, and also crashes usually as you're just going much slower than them.
If you want to learn to race, then I personally think MiniTwins or something like is an excellent way to start. Myself and some friends we're going back to racing steel framed 600's next year as it's just cheaper really, you can get most of the parts you'd ever need of Ebay, and you can buy a complete race bike for 1500 pounds all in.
Finally, I wouldn't buy a new bike and convert it, I'd buy a second hand race bike thats already converted and prepped, is a much cheaper way of buying a race bike than starting from scratch and doing it yourself I assure you.
Let us know what you do, and how you decide to go my friend.
Bullet
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So, whats my little confession....?
Well I recently ran a trackday on my RSV race bike, and I'd had a great day, had ridden very well, and was fairly hauling ass. The weather conditions had started very dry, then moved to light rain, then very heavy rain, then moved back to dry. It was one of those days you really weren't sure you knew what you were going to get really. I race my bike on Slicks, and of course when the heavy rains had come, I moved onto my race wets. All good, still flying, confidence very high.
On the second to last session of the day, it had moved back to being dry again, apart from this one corner on the circuit which holds water longer than anywhere else. Anyway, changed back to slicks, though my front hadn't been on the warmer for more than say 20 mins, so I knew it wasn't at optimal temperature. So I decided that I needed to take it a little easier and build up a little.
3 laps in, and everything is going well, and I come to wet corner, but the different this time was that I made my own space, got some clear track ahead of me, and I was able to do my own thing. Now this corner in question is a a tighening radius turn, with an extremely late apex. Most riders turn in way too early and compromise their exits of the turn. 2stepped, Turned the bike, still on the brakes, making great progress to the apex, when I realise that on the inside of the track, 8 inches from the whitle line on the inside their is a wet patch, and I'm heading right for it on slicks.......! So I get off the brakes, put some gas into her, (it's all starting to a go a bit quick the world by now, spilt second decisions count). and unfortunately the front folded, and I down I went. Bike slid into the gravel, and flipped over. Day over, and a rather nice bill to come too.
So, what am I guilty off? Well, two things really. Firstly, and probably most importantly here, I made a bad decision about whether I should use that part of the track withouth knowing it was wet or not. As I'd been following others line the previous laps, or going around the outside of others to get better drive of the turn, I hadn't used the proper line, and therefore wasn't sure it was ok to Apex and get to the lines. That was clearly a bad mistake, and one that could have been avoided. Second mistake, an ongoing problem from many years, is that when I get into a tricky situation, I have a tendency to get a little target fixation, and I really should have stopped looking at the wet patch once I saw it, and tried to make a steering correction away from the wet patch. Still working on that one folks, probably will be for quite sometime to come.
Hope that helped start a further flood of conversation about this topic, as I said, much to be learned all the time, regardless of your level.
Bullet
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Thanks for getting this one going Bullet! where'd you get that idea.....
For me, the major thing which I get wrong on a regular basis is entering right handers too clse to the centre line (talking road riding obviously here in Australia) - no worries with lefts starting out wide, but despite my best intentions I have some sort of fear of the edge of the road when entering rights and this really puts a crimp in my confidence......
So there you have it! My dirty little secret. It isn't a problem on the track, just on the road.
I should feel cleansed now shouldn't I? I'm no closer to solving it though. HELPPPPPPPP!!!!!
db
I'll tell you in my own post in a moment my friend. We all make mistakes, so it's no dirty little secret, I assure you.
With respect to your problem, what is your fear of the edge of the road? what is it you feel is going to happen? What is the consequence of you turning in too close to the centre of the road, does it give you problems on your exits?
Bullet
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On the street, sometimes I focus too much on turning in deep that I occasionally wind up turning in TOO deep. I think it stems from not selecting a turn in point for each corner versus when I'm on the track, the reference points for turning are marked with cones.
I think I'll place some cones at a few of my favorite corners - ha ha!
Mobile cones might work, though it could prove to be an expensive way to go? either that, or you could get really friendly with the traffic department, and ask them nicely.
I thought it was an interesting observation though, and wondered whether it was really possible to turn in too late on the road, or whether your problem was related to not looking in early enough?
Bullet
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Fair enough on the salaries I was only pulling your legs! and fair enough on the rest of it too....it's just that the forum has been a bit quiet lately......I'll try and think up a question or two.....it's not as if I don't need help believe me! Just hard to know what to ask sometimes, and as you must have noticed sometimes unexpected answers come from srange sources.......
Oh I know buddie, I know. Is a fairly common misconception though believe it or not.
The forum does have a tendancy to be read only, not too many people who come post, so it does take the brave few to ask questions, or share their throughts, and I'm not sure if people are embarassed sometimes to say they don't know something or just voice an opinion? They've no need, though as you've occasionally seen, some of the threads can get a little over heavy and over complicated unneccesarily.
We're trying to get more things started, and it seems to be improving all the time for sure.
Catch ya soon man,
Bullet
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Hi , Some great info around here.
Background
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I ride a sports tourer motorbike on private roads and really enjoy it, however my skill level is rusty i.e on sweepers no problem do sweeping bends , but in a tight series of bends 35-65km im nervous , i've been useing the roller coaster method , basically charge up to the corner as fast as possible then slam the brakes on right before the bend and then lay it down to get around the corner , some of the issues i'm having on tight corners are;
- locking the back wheel up going in (fishtailing), wrong gear or too much rear brake
- not leaning over enough
- running wide
- sliding
- washing off too much speed going in
- no enough speed going out
- scraping boots
- not knowing if im going to make it around without throwing down the road
- bouncing the needle of the tacho
I've got twist II book , to be honest i don't understand it all that well. Mates have give me advise i.e use back brakes when going in , or use front brakes going around , hang off , don't hang off , use the revs (lower gear), use the torque(higher gear) all good advise i'm sure.
I've got 0.5cm chicken strips on my 200 rear tyre and the 120 front has 0.5cm chicken strip i havent scrap pegs yet either so basically the bike has more to offer than i can give it.
Do you think a superbike course will help me improve my road riding ? thanks for the answers
Hi Busa,
Welcome to our forum. You're more than welcome to post, ask any questions you like, and see if we can help you out.
I've read your post, and it sounds like some of your riding isn't very comfortable and enjoyable? Some of your comments, really got my attention, your comment on running wide, and not knowing whether you're going to make it through the turn really mustn't be at all enjoyable for you?
I'm afraid friends, or people you know can only share their own pearls of wisdom, and some of it I'm afraid you'll find isn't worth much, certainly comments like use the front brake in a turn is really only a last resort kind of option, and can have bad consquences on the whole.
At Superbike school, we've developed a structured learning programme that removes myth from mystery, and enables a student to learn the great techniques Keith has developed over his life's work, in a simple effective course that anyone who rides a motorbike can benefit from. Everyone starts at the same level, (level 1), regardless of previous experience, and we ensure that everyone has the esential fundamentals required for basic cornering technique. The upper levels build more on these fundamentals, with level 2 being predominatly about visuals, and level 3 about your phsyical interaction with the bike.
Can we help you, I have no doubt, I guess the question for you is this? What is you want to get from coming to a school? Do you want to be safer, faster, smoother, quicker, in control? If the answer is yes to these things, absolutely we can give you those skills and that knowledge. If you want to try and go as fast as you can and get rid of those chicken strips as top priority, you're probably better to get yourself some track days instead.
I hope you'd like to find out more about what and how we coach, I'm sure many of the students who have gone through the programme from around the world will be more than happy to share with you their experiences, and tell you whether it's been a worthwhile experience or not!
If you have any other questions you'd like to ask, please do so, and we'll try and help you out.
Bullet
Never understood that. Ice cold is much more refeshing. All joking aside Calsberg was one of my favorites while I was visiting. Even found a beer with my last name on it(McEwans). I would love to go back to the UK to do some trackdays. Cadwell is a track I've wanted to ride ever since seeing the mountain for the first time. Donnington is another that I would like to ride reminds me of Laguna as both follow the natural flow of the land, and both are world class tracks.
Front Grip - How To Increase Or Loose It?
in Cornering and Techniques
Posted
You've probably got too much tyre compared to your forks, I'd suggest. Even WSS bikes don't have slicks on a 600. Have you tried putting a tie wrap around the front fork leg to measure how much travel your using? Additionally, the progressive fork springs aren't ideal for hard use, and you'd definitely be better with linear springs for you weight, and get the forks revalved.
Final question for you my friend, how much weight do you carry in your arms? A bit, a fair bit? quite a lot?
Bullet