Bullet
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Posts posted by Bullet
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OK guys this has turned into a brilliant and interesting thread, bit gutted you have come to a conclusion so soon as it became a proper question and answer session!
Anyway I just wanted to fire an opinion in about something!
Well, does you turn in always stay the same, regardless of the speed your travelling? Does the Apex always stay the same..? I think you'll find one alters, and one doesn't so I'd suggest the one that doesn't is more important, wouldn't you?Yes
So apex is more important that the turn in... Up to now I've had it the other way around, my turn in was spot on, but the apex would continue to change depending on speed. Seems I need to switch it around So the apex stays the same! but then the apex would continue to change depending on speed! This cant be right!
OK so what is the apex?
Some would say that its the kerb, or edge of the track at the inside of the turn, if this is the case then ok, I agree that the apex does not change!
Andy Ibbott says its the point where the rider gets closest to the inside of the turn which tells me that it is a point that can change or be changed! It also means you cant miss the apex but you can hit a bad apex, I like to think of it this way because it means rather than being a fixed point its something that can be improved!
Bobby
I think he understands the Apex shouldn't change... he was changing where the Apex was, and keeping his turn in fixed, but now understands thats wrong way round, well thats how I read it?
Bullet
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a motorbike, the #1 de-stressing machine!
Bobby;
Well said...I had an opportunity to ride my Ducati 996 through the tree covered hills where I live but I missed the beautiful fall foliage because I was concentrating on my RP's for the entire ride. Once back home, I got on my restored '68 Triumph Bonneville and rode back out and at a leisurely pace and got to see all that I missed. I am still smiling inside two days later.
As to your philosophical point I share your opinion; we are fortunate indeed and having a bike to ride is an awesome de-stresser no question.
Rainman
That sounds ace man, pootling along on that old lady....!
Bullet
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Well, does you turn in always stay the same, regardless of the speed your travelling? Does the Apex always stay the same..? I think you'll find one alters, and one doesn't so I'd suggest the one that doesn't is more important, wouldn't you?
Yes
So apex is more important that the turn in... Up to now I've had it the other way around, my turn in was spot on, but the apex would continue to change depending on speed. Seems I need to switch it around You grind parts and not reach your apex? Yes, but specifically you'll maybe miss your apex or.... ..? well would you be able to wind on the gas harder of that turn if you had hit that apex?
Certainly, which has just made me understand the "line for throttle rule"
If you turn too late, you have to stay off throttle longer or roll off to get to your apex, and then you will exit on inside of the track and have carried a lower speed through the corner:) and have broken the throttle rule If you have space on the exit of the track, and your line for the next corner doesn't mean you need to be in the middle of the track, then sure, you've not driven the bike as hard as you could of the turn, which means what...?
You can carry more speed through the corner and/or roll on a little harder depending on the traction limits
Less lean, yeah, but because of what specifically is the line the same or different?
Not sure what your asking here?
Do have a question on that though. I understand that quick turn will allow more speed through the corner, but how would it cause less lean angle? or is it meant that it will cause less lean angle at same speed, but then if speed is picked up, you will have the same lean angle?
Thanks
Right, we're making some excellent progress here for sure, and look, you did it all yourself really, just needed to think about it a little differently. I'd suggest you maybe take one thing away from this, is that your thinking about too many things at once, and we only do one thing at once. work on that, when your happy move on, do something else, whether its getting to that great throttle roll on, looking in early whatever, just one thing.
OK, last point then. I think you need to go and look up in TW2 on quick turns, the exact details of what works and why, you have some confusion in part. Your question at the end is correct though, if you pick up the speed, the lean angle does increase, hence you can be dragging things on the floor again. There ultimately does become a limit of whats possible for sure, but I feel you'vee probably got areas to work on here.
Glad you've got some progress mate, really gald to have helped. Please do let everyone know how your getting on, what things you discover, as am certain others are having these same challenges are learning from your thinking and questions
Bullet
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Your entry speed is too low? No, but that may be what's causing some of your issue, are you setting your corner speed for turn point or Apex?
Im not too sure actually, it should be for the apex shouldn't it? How much more important is the apex as opposed to the turn in?
You grind parts and not reach your apex? Yes, but specifically you'll maybe miss your apex or....
No idea? Run off the track?
But if you turn in later, doesn't your apex become later? Yes, but would it be possible you may end up having half of the track on the exit unused? what does mean you've not got coming off the turn?
This has just clicked for me, I always land up with extra track on the exit which means I can go through faster, but with the current turn points I have, there is no way I'd reach the apex at those speeds, which means I am turning in too late? And not paying enough attention on the exit?
Better drive, Possily but why?
Because you aren't as leaned over?
less time at max lean angle? Thats more related to the quick turn itself, it could make the angle in the corner shallower though right..?
Right, and I have some thoughts on that. If you have the same turn point but simply turn quicker, you'll run off the inside of the track, so to compensate, you add speed to get to your original line again correct?
You really are making my brain work
Its good your brain is getting a work out my friend, if someone gave it to you, that wouldn't be worth anything to you would it, nor would you really understand the reason why either, which is really more important.
Well, does you turn in always stay the same, regardless of the speed your travelling? Does the Apex always stay the same..? I think you'll find one alters, and one doesn't so I'd suggest the one that doesn't is more important, wouldn't you?
You grind parts and not reach your apex? Yes, but specifically you'll maybe miss your apex or.... ..? well would you be able to wind on the gas harder of that turn if you had hit that apex?
If you have space on the exit of the track, and your line for the next corner doesn't mean you need to be in the middle of the track, then sure, you've not driven the bike as hard as you could of the turn, which means what...?
Less lean, yeah, but because of what specifically is the line the same or different?
Bullet
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does any one know wen the next years dates r going up for me to book ?
Nic, they will be announced just before the NEC, if you add yourself to our mailing list on the webpage, you'll be mailed pretty much as they're annonuced. You can pretty expect dates to start in the UK around early/mid April if history is anything to go by.
You can find the ability to add yourself to the mailing list on the webpage here http://www.superbikeschool.co.uk/
Cheers
Bullet
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"wioth respect to 2), How do you think you might know if your turning in too late? Is it possible? What might happen if you turn in to late? What benefits have you found you get from turning in later?"
Your entry speed is too low?
You grind parts and not reach your apex?
But if you turn in later, doesn't your apex become later?
The benefits for turning in late are:
Better drive, less time at max lean angle?
Your entry speed is too low? No, but that may be what's causing some of your issue, are you setting your corner speed for turn point or Apex?
You grind parts and not reach your apex? Yes, but specifically you'll maybe miss your apex or....
But if you turn in later, doesn't your apex become later? Yes, but would it be possible you may end up having half of the track on the exit unused? what does mean you've not got coming off the turn?
Better drive, Possily but why?
less time at max lean angle? Thats more related to the quick turn itself, it could make the angle in the corner shallower though right..?
Bullet
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Maybe im asking to much?!
Could I then please just get an answer on these 2 questions?
On the quick turn, Is it possible to quick turn so hard that you slam your knee or peg into the ground?
Would this lead to a crash or just a broken peg?
How would you know if your turning in too late?
Thanks
There were a lot of questions for sure, definitely too much going on at once there my friend..
1), yes, definitely possible to turn it so hard, you stick it straight to your knee/peg etc. Well, if the pegs are flip up ones, they'll normally grind and lift a bit, though if they dig into say a kerb or some rutted tarmac, they can dig in or lift the rear wheel a little. If they're solid rearsets (race style), they'll dig in and lift only, they won't break. Will you crash in this instance, chances are high with lifting the rear wheel for sure. depends on what you do next, what SR you invoke.
wioth respect to 2), How do you think you might know if your turning in too late? Is it possible? What might happen if you turn in to late? What benefits have you found you get from turning in later?
Bullet
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Morning mate,
You're welcome, and I don't take offence lightly. This story rings a bell with me as I read it, welcome to the forum mate.
It was an unusual day for the weather, which clearly didn't help out either! I think your description of crashes are very complete, and you've reviewed what you've done and why very well. From what you've said, I'd definitely suggest you do level 2 when you return to the school next year, you clearly have some residiual issues with visuals and level 2 will most definitely help to start addressing these issues.
Hope you keep posting, sharing your experiences!
Bullet
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Good Shout Bullet,
meant knee down....(only person to suffer at my first school was your goodself....how is the shoulder? )
I never have bad students, you're all awesome!
Shot mate unfortnately. just had it operated on last week after 5 weeks of "Natural healing", only for it not to be really healing, so they broke it again, plated it, 6 screws and a bone graft! A bit back to square one really, but I'll be reet in time for visit to see us again next year, no fear!
Bullet
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It will happen with the right advice ,,I hope your first time will be a slightly better experience than mine
Nige
First experience of what Nige? Knee down, or the school....?
I agree with your view that people focus on lean angle and knee down when its not important really.
Bullet
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hi im a class 1 hgv driver from hertfordshire only passed about a year and a half ago . i went to ron hasslems school which was great fun and good for my confidence . my chicken stripes r getting me down im haveing trouble to lean my bike
i have knee sliders but feel a bit of a knob wearing them as i no where near the ground i may be rideing to slow who knows can this school help me do this ? if i look at my tyres again i think i will go madHi Nic,
Thanks for posting on the forum. Good to hear your story!
Ron's school is very different from a day with us at CSS, they'd call their's an experience, ours is most definitely a school, with a formal curriculm and structure. Major differences are usually the student use's their own bike (though you can use ours if you like at additional cost), secondly, whilst the format of the session is controlled (i.e. we start our early session with no gears and no brakes and you'll work on a specific drill like throttle control), you as the rider dictate the speed you go at, we don't sheppard and make you go at others speeds, you may overtake slower students if you wish as long as its safe and vice versa. Your work on class sessions, on track sessions (5 per day, 1 per hour of each) and an off track session relevant to the level your working on.
The biggest primary difference though is we're a cornering school. we're about helping students understand how, and why a bike goes around corners, what it needs from you, and how you can improve your cornering ability. I think its fair to say we'd very much be able to help you improve, (I'll let other students tell you off their experiences), if you come open minded, willing to commit to our program and work with your coach you'll get great results, you'll feel in control of your bike and your confidence will be even more improved and those chicken strips will be distant concern.
I hope that answers your question, if you have more, please post them , and we'll see if we can help you make your decision on whether we can assist you!
Bullet
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Looks like its a good week to be posting on here from liverpool, I wont say anything of the football
Hello to you all, I must admit to being a long time lurker on here but have bitten the bullet and decided to sign up
I attended L1 this year and my next track day departed from my bike twice having got very sloppy with my L1 drills. Ive now been out out track again to get back into the saddle so to speak and slowed things down to enable me to do things properly. Even though I wasnt back up to speed I got a lot out of the day and will be out practicing some more when finances allow.
I got a lot out of the school this year and will be back there for more coaching without doubt, even tempted to go through L1 again.
Hi mate,
Welcome and thanks for posting! I hope you don't bite me too much, I tend to leave that to the loved one in my life, and only she gets an occasional pass out for that too!
Interesting that you parted twice in the same day, I'd be interested where that was, what happened, how you rectified your error. Once is well, not ok, but stuff happens, two is very unusual indeed. Did they take your wrist band and send you off to think about it?
Once we have an idea what's caused your crashes, we could perhaps advise on whether its worse doing L1 or moving onto L2.
Sounds like your all upbeat and well, and we look forward to hearing more from you!
Bullet
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Having said all that, I would only wish the 600 novice class on my worst enemy.
Now thats an other totally great point! Axe Murderers at 10 paces. Its fair to say entusiasm plays a bigger part in the racing than skill, but its a learning experience for sure, whether thats good or not is another matter!
Bullet
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You've already ridden the track on a literbike. You should ask yourself whether you're comfortable riding a 1,000, or if you'd rather go to a 600. I wouldn't mind trying out a literbike on a track.
If I got into racing, I'd probably stay on a 600, or even go to a twin. You can enter superstreet, superbike, AND unlimited on a 600, but not on a literbike at the tracks here.
on a lot of tracks, and certainly one where you can't really open the throttle to get the benefit of a 1000's power, you'll find the 600 will be pretty much as quick as a litre in laptimes anyway. If the track is all corners, a smaller bike will always be better in the turns, less mass, easier to apply that throttle on way out of turns.
Bullet
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If you guys are dressing up...post some pictures on the form!
Thanks,
BCNU
I second that, I think this is quite a cool custom, should be a really good laugh!
Bullet
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the track is Losail in Qatar, the bike is a 2006 cbr1000.
about the videos sorry and no pics as well ( lots of photographers but i do not know why no one has pics??? ).
about my accident it was my mistake not the bike ( i always say that the rider is the problem not the bike. i was in the S and i was suppose to come from the out side to the in side but i was near the turn so i needed more lean angle to go threw the turn what i forgot was the bump in the turn, if i had come from the outside then every thing wood have gone smooth but my mistake made me lean more to go into the turn, when i was leaning i hit the bump so the bike suspension tried to take care of thing but i felt the bike going up an down like a pogo so in a survival reaction i touched the front brake at full lean and that was that.
so now i am not able to get better times or make my old best times even thew i take the S with no problem.
thank you
Hi Nobody,
I'm sorry I've not ridden there, though I've heard it's absolutely stunning track, in fact, its one of Andy Ibbotts favourite tracks, and he's ridden a few (coz he's so old ya know).
Right, so you know what you did, and why you fell off. So thats a really big step. You suffered from a survival reaction and whilst we can train ourselves to not re-act to them, sometimes we do still, we have accept it, its in our inbred nature as humans. if you get into a situation of panic, you'll sometimes do it, even if you really don't want. Practice is the only way to keep working on them, but you have to accept sometimes it will happen in those split second moments. Now time to move on....
OK, so what could you do differently with your approach to the track their? if you changed your line in that corner to avoid the bump would that help? Is that possible? is the bike's suspension more compliant leaned right over or more upright? How could you change your approach to this corner to deal with this situation differently in the future?
Once you can deal with this, it will take some time to get your attention back on your riding, and your riding will come back, but, you have to be able to let go of the crash, and that only comes from understanding why, and having a differnt plan for the future to stop you making it again.
Hope that helps.
Bullet
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You're absolutely right about this point tha knowing what you do wrong is one thing, being able to correct it is not always so easy, and of course thats the real benefit and value you get from atending the school, that and actually being observed as often a students perception of themself isn't quite always reality. As if that could, or would ever hapen !
Bullet
Care to take a trip over here for the Vegas weekend? Dibs on Bullet as my riding coach.
One of the Uk coaches will be there, but I'm afraid I'm still badly laid up from my accident and my shoulder. Its had to have surgery, and it's likely to be at least another 12 weeks before I'll be able to start training to get fit to get back on a bike.. be spring before I'll be riding again..!
am sure you'll have an awesome time my friend, and I look forward to hearing how much you enjoyed from your days!
Bullet
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I think you're going to have to give some more information about you, where your racing, tracks, what bike etc. You're not giving people much to work with here in order to be able to help. Do you have onboard video of your riding for people to critque? Pictures of your riding?
Clearly much about going fast is confidence, and taking a crash in most peoples cases knocks that, do you fully understand why you crashed? What you do differently to avoid it? and so on, and so on.
We'll try and help, you've got to give more my friend.
Bullet
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Hey guys,
I have a bit of a dilema that I'm hoping the forum can help me out with...I just started to do some track days and am considering racing. I am currently using my 00 R1 steetbike for both street and track...the problem is ...that as a novice at our home track the more experienced guys are telling me that a 1000 for our track is too much bike! Mistakes that happen on a liter bike are big and that a 600 is more forgiving. That being said...When I first learn to ride I rode a 600 Katana for 2 mos before I ran out and jumped on the R1. Ive had that bike since it's birth (I even did the delivery - uncrating it). I know that bike, and I know it well. The up side is that it's bought and paid for already...The down side is...can a bike really be too big for a track??
Thanks,
BCNU
Hi mate,
I think its not only a question of is the bike to big for a track, but also is the rider able to deal with the power of a 1000. A modern 600, makes about 125bhp, your 1000 makes say 150bhp. The 600 is more nimble, lighter and the power and torque are much less intimidating. Ask yourself, how often do you find yourself able to fully open your existing bikes throttle to the stop. You'll pretty much answer your own question with the answer!
Bullet
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FINALLY GOT IT!!! I was getting upset because of how long it was taking. I mean, who doesn't have a firm date on when something is being released? One, two months out? Still don't know?
When it DID get here, I was ecstatic. I'm like a kid. I get really excited. You have no idea how bummed I was about Where The Wild Things Are movie. When Spiderman came out, I was so juiced about it that I got a nosebleed from the beginning credits. That didn't happen with TOTW 2 DVD, just to let you know.
It was great though. After starting out a little slow and me expecting a letdown, it got better quickly. Much of the information I was familiar with, but never saw it explained that way, a way the books with outdated drawings could never describe. It even put into words what I KNOW I'm doing wrong, and the difference it would make if I did things correctly. I can see how the video would have quickly made me better if I was a newer rider, and even how much it will help after riding track for two years, but without proper training I know it's going to be a task getting over these habits I've developed. I only know what I'm doing wrong, and where my bad habits are getting me. I can work on it, but won't be able to progress to where I should to be.
Lenz and Roberts showing up was fun. I've seen them both, and although Lenz is very fast and smooth, I love watching Roberts with that wicked BP of his.
That's where the school comes in. This time next week I'll either be endlessly frustrated, or well into my second day of the California Superbike School seeing big improvements. I'm expecting the later from all the people I've spoke with, and this forum.
Thanks for a great video guys. I'm going to recommend it to my friends with much enthusiasm.
You're absolutely right about this point tha knowing what you do wrong is one thing, being able to correct it is not always so easy, and of course thats the real benefit and value you get from atending the school, that and actually being observed as often a students perception of themself isn't quite always reality. As if that could, or would ever hapen !
Bullet
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Misti "death wagon" Hurst
I wasn't going to ask, but I just can't help myself. Why?
Bullet
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looking through the corners, and being smooth with the controls ( wipers, turn signal, stereo) :<)
I always try and practice 2 step and 3 step turns in the car, especially when I'm pushing on in my Elise and having some (ahem) fun, honestly officer. You can definitely practice the visual skills just as well in the car as on a bike.
Bullet
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CatNap would be good, maybe Narco, or zzzzzzz's...... Winkle (for Rip Van Winkle)works for me also, though whether you've got the balls for that one, is another question..?
For that matter, we could call him "Rip," which also carries the suggestion that he's fast.
I like Winkle - it's cute.
Winkle suggests a slightly different meaning in the UK, often used to describe a small boys tackle, or the passing of water....! Not so cute now us it..?
I have to say Rip's got some mileage.
Bullet
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Classic thread!
I know you guys are aware of Mikey's fondness of a nanna nap. Having seen it for myself in Europe I suggest maybe there's a nickname in it. Dude falls asleep on trains, on buses, planes, cars........transport is his sedative.
Nanna? or maybe just Nan for short?
I like that Adam, but I we don't know what a nanna nap is here in the States. But your right, he falls asleep everywhere!
How about "Napper"
CF
CatNap would be good, maybe Narco, or zzzzzzz's...... Winkle (for Rip Van Winkle)works for me also, though whether you've got the balls for that one, is another question..?
Bullet
So apex is more important that the turn in... Up to now I've had it the other way around, my turn in was spot on, but the apex would continue to change depending on speed. Seems I need to switch it around 
i have knee sliders but feel a bit of a knob wearing them as i no where near the ground i may be rideing to slow who knows
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You're a cruel man wipes!
Bullet