Bullet
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Posts posted by Bullet
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Are there going to be any foreign camps next year or is the published list more or less what we have to choose from?????
I understand, though it's yet to be fully confirmed my friend, but I hear Jerez, 2, 2 day camps might happen, Easter Monday onwards, ( I think thats the 6th April). There are definitely going to be further dates in Spain, Lithuania, South Africa, Bulgaria, and France I hear. We may also be going to India..... All TBC though I'm afraid.
You cannot book any of these yet, as there a few other dates/things being organised, but I suspect Jerez will will more than likely happen mate.
Bullet
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Hi Kev,
Knockhill is a nice track mate, little small, and the weather is very changable, but it's not half bad, got some very challenging turns in there for sure.
My personal fave for training used to be Rockingham, it had a good mixture of all types of turns, but due to surface concerns, we're not going there in the UK in 2010. The three other circuits we're currently doing, Silverstone Stowe, Silverstone South, and Brands Hatch Indy, all have their pluses and minuses really.
Stowe is a small circuit, about 1.2 miles currently, though it's being ammended with another 0.5 miles of turns being put in, impvoed paddock and class facilities being done over the winter, due for completion around April/May. Its not super fast circuit, but it's got lots of slow to medium speed turns, and it's a tricky little sod to get right.
South circuit is the lower half of the GP circuit, joined back together at the top of the Hangar straight. Its much wider cicruit than stowe, much better surface, and much, much quicker, so if high speed is your thing, thats probably for you,
Brands Indy, well that speaks for itself. Its very, very popular, sells out very quickly usually at least 3-4 months in advance. Its a good circuit, very tricky challenge of elevation, and corners of all kinds of speed. A good track, but so, so far away from you.
Now, if you were interested in a European 2 day'er, we're doing Jerez in April, I understand it maybe the Easter week, Bank Holiday monday onwards. Its fair to say, the 2 day camps are the very best way to do a the schools. Firstly you get to do the full length ciricuits, as we have enough time, and Jerez is unbelievably good. Second, the coach to student ratio is 2-1, rather than 3-1, so you get more interaction/input. Finally, you get 6 sessions per day, rather than 5. It works out you get nearly as much double the track time.
There are only ever 16 students on track at once. so it's a bit like having the place to yourself, only downer is of course it costs more money, which makes it a bit exclusive. There is talk of having a 2 day camp in the UK later in 2010, but I don't know about anymore details, but, given we use Silverstone a lot, and with the MotoGP is going there, I'd like to speculate if we do, it might be on the new MotoGP circuit layout, but as I said, thats just me speculating....!
Hope that helps your thought process mate
Bullet
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Ok, thanks for the pic. So, assuming you ride like that all the time, I don't think you're hanging off to far, which often causes this problem.
So, question time, (you didn't think it would be easy did you?) How well can you see out of your helmet? (this has been discussed a lot in one of the other threads on here). Where is your Apex on that turn? If we could think of it as the bottom half of a clock face please that would help, with entry to the turn as 3 O'clock, and Exit at 9 O'clock) You talked about being able to see your Apex, when should you be looking further up the track for your exit?
Ta very much, lets see what we can work out.
Bullet
Hi Bullet,
Cheers for following this one, as for my helmet, the view I get from the OGK is quite good with no problems to date.
I wish I could draw this for you but, OK, using your clock idea, my apex is about 7.30 with turn in at about 4.45, high up on the bank.
Maybe I am getting the three-step wrong but I approach on the extreme outside of track, locate turn point (4.45-ish), look for apex (7.30) before actually turning in, confirm apex with wide view, pick up eyes and try to find 3rd point up track whilst heading down the bank with a final pick-up and gas about 9ish.
It's this coming down the track from high up to the apex which is causing the problem. This line should work well on flat corners but it's the banked part of things that is throwing me a bit, wondering if a major rethink on the whole corner is required and if it can be done better/ a different line/method.
I need a defined way of doing these corners as what I have learned so far makes every corner feel comfortable and planted , which is good, whereas this one just feels "wrong" and not completely in control.
Cheers again!
Rob
So, I'd sugegst from experience of riding there, that your Apex is possibly a little early, and that it's more like 8-8-30 using our clock analogy. Its possible for these kind of corners you may attack them with two Apexes, with one early in the turn (say you're 4 o'clock), then letting the bike run out up the banking a little, then down to the second exit as you come down of the banking.
A question resonates in my mind here. When is it you think you should be looking away from your Apex to your exit? (the area thats causing you your problem in essence). How close should you be to it be for trying to look up the track?
Bullet
Hey Bullet
I think you may be zeroing in on the problem here with the timing-of-the-look thought in your last sentence.
I've been thinking about this for the last couple of days to really work out what's going on and the double apex may be worth a go but don't you find it's quite tight for that?
As you rightly said it all gets a bit vague in the exit part of the corner and in reply to your question I actually look for my final exit point about ½ way from my turn-in point to the actual apex, make a quick note of it and then try and look up asap.
Maybe the problem is that it's fine writing it down but perhaps I am not looking up quick enough- maybe due to the banking etc. etc that is going on ( all of a sudden a new "unsure of" element has been thrown in and it's all too much for the ole grey matter), I don't know.
When should I be looking up? Just to refresh my memory.....
Also is it true that speeds are higher on banked corners? Perhaps I may be trying to do it all too quickly and more practice is needed first before winding up the speed (?), after all that is how you teach the skills in the first place isn't it.....
Cheers!
Rob
Hi mate,
Yeah, I though we might be getting to a timing problem to be honest, but we'll come back to that in a moment.
with respect to the having two Apexs, what I'm talking about is clippping (or as close as you feel comfortable) to the white line, then letting the bike drift out a little bit, i.e. you're not hugging right on the white line all the way around. You might only drift 6-8 feet, maybe more, very personal thing really, but you're making a second Apex and it needs to be later on.
So, we're going to have a think about the primary difference between our two step (start of your turn), and your 3rd Step. Now, if you think back, and think about riding you only look into the turn when you're sure you're going to do what? Carrying this them forwards, do you think it could be the case that we only look away from our Apex (2nd in this corner), when we're sure we're going to do what? Only at this point we'll look up the track for our exit!
Is it true speeds are higher in banked turns, yeah, thats true, but do you understand why? The reason is because every angle of positive Camber on the turn, is a degree of angle you don't have to apply to the bike to go through the turn, so for example if you have a 20degree camber on the turn, thats an extra 20 degrees of lean angle you get back in your favour, which of course means more corner speed. Make sense?
If you can think about the timing of the look away from turn points and apexs, we'll be close to cracking this my friend, and yeah, try and practice this a bit slower, say 60-70%, then start to add the speed back in once you've nailed the timing sequence.
Bullet
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would i be required to go through level 1 again having done it back in 2001/02??????? would like to avoid that if poss and get on with getting stuck into the rest next year.......
Nope, onwards and upwards my friend. sorry if we got a bit of thread along the way.
Bullet
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Now that I'm done mucking up Stumpy's thread I figured I'd start a new one to continue this discussion. Who is it that comes into picture at 1:55? Cause homeboy was moving! Real nice form, picks the bike up coming outta of the right hander gets a real good drive and divers under you in the left and almost got who I'm assuming is Andy all in one turn. That was pretty crazy!! Looks like you guys are having some fun!
That was Johnny Haynes (Cobies equivalent), though he's on an R1 on Slicks. Ibbott and myself are on 600's, the camera bike behind is Thannaiss, (greek school director). Yeah, Johnny goes allright, he's a really great rider. To be fair, I'm only following Ibbott around. My tyres are very shagged, if you closely I nearly lobbed it coming through the hairpin. Johnny can do 1:52's on a boggo R1 on slicks, I could do a 1:55 on a 600 on good tyres.
Yeah, we had great fun doing that, I have to tell ya.
Bullet
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Edit: just found this video while searching for Ibbott race vidswho's who here? Bullet are you the camera bike or the one getting chased?
No, I'm the one directly in front of the camera. the old duffer (Ibbott) is at the very front. We're following him, see how ###### he is, so we could provide him with some considerable input afterwards. He doesn't get out too often these days ya see. That time in life.
Bullet
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And on the point of developing the basic skills.....
Do you guys have a set curriculum or is it very much dependant on the individual and his/her level of ability......
The curriculum is set, as in the struture of which drills we can coach when, so drill 1 level is throttle control and so on. So if we see something really horrible that can only be addressed when you get level 3, we'll leave it until then. We also always work on the drill that needs the most work, so for example, you may need to keep working on your throttle control, when say the drill is turn points.
Once you get to level 4, it's about what you need, and we make it more specific to whichever area you need most work on. You're also part of this coaching team at this point too, as you know what we expect of you, and you also have your own goals and aspirations too, say, racing or whatever.
The students ability is judged by the coach who is working with you, it's pretty well judged in most cases, though if a student perhaps came with an assumption on something, that could maybe leave them frustrated/dissapointed with something.
It mustn't be forgotten that it takes time to get to be really exceptional rider, lots of time, commitment, effort, and it can be difficult to judge sometimes where people join us in their own journey of riding so as it can be tuned appropriately.
Bullet
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Hi, new to the forum.
I stay in the east of Scotland, and have just purchased an Rsv4.
Hoping to get myself and my wife through all the levels.
Angie has a honda cbr600f and an Aprilia 750.
So saying hello to all.
Kev
Hi kev,
Welcome to our forum, and with luck, we'll see you at school in 2010.
great choice of bike, it really is a sensational looking thing, and I understand a real fantastic piece of kit to ride. Coming from an Aprilia RSV myself, I expect nothing less than that too.
Have a scoot around our forum, look through the numerous articles, and share your thoughts and opinions on stuff that interests you. You'll find the forum can be full of interesting lively debate, with riders of all levels putting in their two penneth.
Looking forward to hearing more about you, your experience, etc, etc.
Bullet
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I should have known that there wouldn't be any northern tracks being used. Whats wrong with circuits like Cadwell or Oulton, then I could have my problem areas sorted on the tracks I ride & that would be closer to personal tuition without the expense
.It'll have to be Stowe again for L3.
Well you say without the expense... But, unfortunately, Oulton especially is very expensive to hire, Cadwell isn't much cheaper either. they're both MSV/Palmersport owned circuit's lest we not forget, so I doubt you'd be looking much less cost than Brands hatch for a day.
Other problem is this, You wouldn't be able to coach on the full circuits at either circuit, you'd have to use both the shorter versions, which again, is probably not what you ride when you go there. Why I here you ask? well, lets put it this way, Oulton is pretty long circuit, I can do flat out, around 1:52, but think how slow you'd be on 1 gear no brakes? or a novice rider would be doing it? Say, 3:30-4:00 min laps. 20 mins a session, you'd get maybe 4-5 laps. You'd never be able to coach all of your students in the time. this is why you can only run tracks this long on Camps, where you have 2-1 student ratio, and 30 min sessions.
Now, I can tell you there is a possibility of running a 2 day camp in the UK later on in the year. The circuit to be used is being discussed, and I know that Outlon is definitely very much in the mix for it.
I'll let everyone know when i hear what/where/when it may be.
Bullet
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I just want to add the video that everyone is refering to when talking about lines. http://www.ebike-ridingtips.co.uk/video.php <-- Video. Rossi talks about using 3 lines not 2. Qual, Race, and Def line. Please keep this topic going as it's very interesting to me as, I'm sure others too.
Oh that video.....! I know a funny story about that film...
Bullet
If it involves Andy Ibbot I think I know the funny story your talking about, I'l leave it for you to tell though!
Bobby
Well, if you look really, really closely, and you know how Ibbott rides a bike, you'll actually see that in a couple of the shots, Valentino Rossi makes a style change, and the two look remarkably the same! Could it be Rossi learned much greatness from the Ibbott? Or could it be they ran out of time filming on the day, had to do a second morning, and Rossi had to leave?
Bullet
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Now thats an excellent reponse from Greg. No one can surely have any misunderstanding now...?
Bullet
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I just want to add the video that everyone is refering to when talking about lines. http://www.ebike-ridingtips.co.uk/video.php <-- Video. Rossi talks about using 3 lines not 2. Qual, Race, and Def line. Please keep this topic going as it's very interesting to me as, I'm sure others too.
Oh that video.....! I know a funny story about that film...
Bullet
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Great reply Fajita Dave. When you've learned the two step properly, you can use this to adjust the speed in which you lean.
As Dave said, there are two different types of lines. In a qualifying line they can open the bike up, and not have to protect any lines. When racing, when the top guys brake, they go into a corner at a higher speed than they're going to apex at. Then they trail off the brakes once they've reached the desired speed and through they go. If you get down to your actual cornering speed you'll be pushed to the side by someone who's going in at a higher speed than THEY are going to actually apex at.
When you're talking MotoGP type riders and the like, you're talking about riders who've spent a better part of their racing careers having the luxury of world class coaching, and using technology that we'll never see because it quickly becomes obsolete. Most club level racers don't even really need to trail brake.
Good post mate.
Bullet
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If you are getting frustrated with Greg asking questions.....look out Bullet hasn't started on you yet!!! lol
No, this is Greg's baby... I'm only offering school coaching insight.. He's doing a good job, though as was eloquently put earlier by someone, whilst he's attempting to keep it straight forward, over complication is most definitely the order of the day.
Carry on people..
Bullet
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By the schools method....your braking is done and eased off just as you arrive at your turn point
at this turn point you steer as quickly as possible with an ideal of just 1 steering input
once over you then crack the throttle asap etc etc etc
Thats my point, thats how we start of teaching it, thats not neccesarily how we finish off teaching it. So if we were to say, thats foundation, most simple, easiest to understand, safest method to coach students. Thats not to say that's where we'll end up at, with more coaching work and further levels. Withouth doubt thats how we coach it level 1 though.
Bullet
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i think that answers everything perfectly, to think passed that maybe over thinkin it.
Fella, this whole forum is testament to overthinking......thats the point of it, to a degree
We can all deduce for ourselves that you adapt techniques and methods to suit situations and available technology, its a judgment call.
But rightly or wrongly i feel the school are a touch vague and fuzzy about this in contrast to the very matter of fact approach to almost every other aspect of bike/rider interaction.
doesnt anybody else feel the uncertainty?
I just wanted add a little couple of things here. Firstly, it's a misconception to think you're going to brake all the way to the Apex, that almost never, ever happens, (i guess there are specific turns that it could happen and probably does), but most corners you never, ever get that far.
Secondly, I don't think there is any amibuity about the technology, what is widely misunderstood is the gradient which we often apply the techniques we use to riders. What I mean by this, there is a requirement when coaching to apply the right level of technology to the riders ability, and in addition to this, it's also important that we get the fundamental concepts applied and understood before starting to move the envelope on further in pursuit of say laptimes and outright speed. This is ulitimately a fine point of coaching, and something that would/could be explored with your coach where applicable and relevant.
Hope that helps provide an element of understanding on the why it's done the way in which it is..?
Bullet
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Cheers Bullet
Are you guys not running the rider aid bikes again next year?
I don't know the answer to that question mate to be honest. I'll ask, let you know.
Bullet
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Cheers for that explanation Bullet
It is a shame, I really liked that little circuit and its where I've done all my levels 1-3 so probably the track where I have got past alot of my riding barriers and have improved my riding, no high speed stuff just corner after corner as you know. Ironically all 3 times I have been there it has been wet, and all credit to all the CSS staff, we were well warned about turns 1 and 6! On my last day there though you could see the coaches and staff getting a bit frustrated as they were warning people about it and then they went out and crashed, Hopefully Rockingham can get it sorted and get back on the calender for 2011!
Looks like silverstone for level 4 next year, is the little stow track a good track for learning on or would it be worth paying the extra for the south circuit?
Cheers
Bobby
Stowe circuit as was, well it's ok for learning on, it's not got the facilities or the mixture of lefts rights, and fast slow, but they're adding more to it over the winter to make it more involving for the future. I wouldn't say it was bad, not as much fun as Rockingham. I think the ammendments add another 3 right handers in, and 3 more lefts, though I'm unsure on how quick they'll be, probably medium speed.
The South circuit, well, thats essentially the lower half of the GP circuit, and it's very fast in comparison.. Definitely a much quicker, faster, longer straights, more high speed turns. Not as technically tricky in many ways really, much longer lap.
Which is best for you, well i guess it depends greatly on what you're struggling to fix? If its slower stuff, then Stowe maybe better, if it's faster, well, South circuit is the way to go for sure.
Let me know what you decide my friend.
Bullet
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I'm glad you've picked this one up Greg. I'll get myself a coffee and a chair, I fear this mis-conception may take some time to work through!
Bullet
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I see next years calendar is out and so far nothing at Rockingham, Is it because it always rains when we go there?
The only choice seems to be Silverstone South, Stow or Brands hatch, hopefully more dates get added, I have a level 4 to do!
Bobby
Hi Bobby,
Yeah definitely no Rockingham in 2010, not because it rains when we go, but because the circuit is so dangerous when it rains. Turns 1 and 6 at Rockingham have got progressively worse and worse over the last few years, and we've been getting so many crashes on those two corners only it cannot be a coincidence.
I understand that there have been extensive discussions with the circuit about changing the surface of these two corners, but it's been refused. Because of this, we've decided not to go in 2010 because of safety fears for our riders.
There will only be the 3 different circuits in 2010, though Stowe circuit is having an extra 1/2 mile added to it over the winter, and we have of course the south circuit which is very good and Brands Hatch Indy. I do believe there may be a two day camp in the UK in August/Sept 2010, but details are yet to be confirmed so it would be wrong at this time to speculate.
I too will miss rockingham in 2010, but we just don't want riders to b e crashing more than they should and its become unacceptable to go until this issue is resolved.
Bullet
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Ok, thanks for the pic. So, assuming you ride like that all the time, I don't think you're hanging off to far, which often causes this problem.
So, question time, (you didn't think it would be easy did you?) How well can you see out of your helmet? (this has been discussed a lot in one of the other threads on here). Where is your Apex on that turn? If we could think of it as the bottom half of a clock face please that would help, with entry to the turn as 3 O'clock, and Exit at 9 O'clock) You talked about being able to see your Apex, when should you be looking further up the track for your exit?
Ta very much, lets see what we can work out.
Bullet
Hi Bullet,
Cheers for following this one, as for my helmet, the view I get from the OGK is quite good with no problems to date.
I wish I could draw this for you but, OK, using your clock idea, my apex is about 7.30 with turn in at about 4.45, high up on the bank.
Maybe I am getting the three-step wrong but I approach on the extreme outside of track, locate turn point (4.45-ish), look for apex (7.30) before actually turning in, confirm apex with wide view, pick up eyes and try to find 3rd point up track whilst heading down the bank with a final pick-up and gas about 9ish.
It's this coming down the track from high up to the apex which is causing the problem. This line should work well on flat corners but it's the banked part of things that is throwing me a bit, wondering if a major rethink on the whole corner is required and if it can be done better/ a different line/method.
I need a defined way of doing these corners as what I have learned so far makes every corner feel comfortable and planted , which is good, whereas this one just feels "wrong" and not completely in control.
Cheers again!
Rob
So, I'd sugegst from experience of riding there, that your Apex is possibly a little early, and that it's more like 8-8-30 using our clock analogy. Its possible for these kind of corners you may attack them with two Apexes, with one early in the turn (say you're 4 o'clock), then letting the bike run out up the banking a little, then down to the second exit as you come down of the banking.
A question resonates in my mind here. When is it you think you should be looking away from your Apex to your exit? (the area thats causing you your problem in essence). How close should you be to it be for trying to look up the track?
Bullet
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Slightly confused, I understand that having the nut lower and to the inside is better, but struggling with the orientation of the head.
Your Avatar has your visor line almost parallel to the ground, but bellevuetlr has his inline with the bike?
Like the cake theorum - works for me
Hi Spencer,
If you look closely, you will actually see my helmet is indeed sloping over, and isn't parallel to the floor. The main difference between myself and Belle really is that he's hanging off the bike much further than I, and this means he can't have his visuals as far up the track as myself. Essentially, I'm a pretty good position as a compromise for body and visuals really. Of course, it's all relative to bike setup, body size, etc, etc.
Can you see that? I've attached the larger pic here for you to see.
Bullet
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Ok, thanks for the pic. So, assuming you ride like that all the time, I don't think you're hanging off to far, which often causes this problem.
So, question time, (you didn't think it would be easy did you?) How well can you see out of your helmet? (this has been discussed a lot in one of the other threads on here). Where is your Apex on that turn? If we could think of it as the bottom half of a clock face please that would help, with entry to the turn as 3 O'clock, and Exit at 9 O'clock) You talked about being able to see your Apex, when should you be looking further up the track for your exit?
Ta very much, lets see what we can work out.
Bullet
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Hi there Learnéd Chaps!
Enjoyed learning the techniques on levels 1&2 (when's 3!) immensely but now I have a problem.
My nemesis now is Turn 2, the "Bookatrack Banking" at Anglesey Circuit, Wales.
It is a well-banked 180 degree hairpin and when I pick my point and enter, quite late and therefore quite high up in the banking, by the time it comes to spot my exit, I can see my apex but can't turn my head up high enough to see the straight as I am banked right over heading downwards into the apex.
Am I doing the whole corner wrong and is there a special way of coping with banked hairpins, ie, flat-out on the inside, or constant line up the top as the banking will negate the need for lean? I tried a few different things but want to know the "right" way as you guys are the Gods ;O)
Many thanks in advance!
Rob
Any pics available of how you hang off the bike?
Bullet
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Refresh My Memory Please.....
in Cornering and Techniques
Posted
Evening,
You sure you're not merging the two drills together there? Knee to Knee is for what? Is it possible, Hip Flick is for chicance's pre-empting second part of chicanes? If so, how would that work?
Bullet