rchase
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Posts posted by rchase
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More on the toe thing. Here's a photo for an example. If the rider in that photo increased lean angle what would touch first? Knee slider or toe tip?
It unfortunately was not the knee slider that touched.
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Looks like you are making some good progress.
It was difficult to see from the photos but.... Make sure the ball of your foot is on the tip of the peg. As you get lower in the corners eventually the tip of your toe will touch the surface. The ball on the tip of the peg provides a pivot point for your foot and gets it further away from the track surface. It's something I still have to actively remind myself of.
A few years ago I did something similar myself with a large parking lot. I was not 100% comfortable getting in the hang off position and was not thrilled with the prospect of experimenting around at the track or on the street where I could make a painful mistake. A large parking lot worked really well for me. What also worked well for me is to have a friend take photographs as I was trying to hang off. Much like you are doing.
A parking lot works well for turns because you can do left and right transitions and if you make a mistake it's not that big of a deal. The only problem of course is debris. My afternoon of becoming more comfortable hanging off cost me a rear tire when I ran over a screw. It was well worth it. If you have a photographer and they are the brave type get them to stand in the middle of the parking lot and pivot around pretty close. They can turn with you and take photos and you can see mistakes and work on resolving them.
Here's a photo of me making my camera equipped friend nervous. Notice my low foot (its lower in other photos). Notice also my inside elbow is not extended and my head is still pretty high. I could probably also slide my butt a lot more to the inside. Not bad for a first try though. After that afternoon of practice and understanding what would happen hanging off never bothered me again. It has however been an area I have had to continue to refine as I have learned more.
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I always try to keep it sane on the street myself. The corners at the track are much more fun than any road. We all of course occasionally get lost in the moment.
I'm wondering if the Dunlop folks might have a bit of technical insight into the differences in pressure and the why behind it. I'm interested now as well.
Hotfoot provided some good insight. She touched a bit on the different geometries of bikes and tire sizes. Powerful 1L machines have different geometry setups because of their power and weight while smaller bikes like 250's are optimized to take advantage of their low weight and power output. I suspect a lot of the pressure recommendations relate directly to the geometry of the machine and the tire sizes it's equipped with.
If you compare the S1000RR and your Panigale they are drastically different designs. One bike has an inline 4cyl engine that's 4cyl wide and the other has a 2cyl engine that's only 1cyl wide and it uses the engine as part of the frame. I don't have the specs handy but I bet the geometries are completely different.
Here's an interesting reference to motorcycle geometry.
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The manufacturers "recommended" pressure is just that. A recommendation. I think their interest is reducing tire wear for somewhat "normal" street use. I don't know many people who ride a high performance Superbike in a "normal" fashion all the time but that's another conversation.
I recently put my Dunlop Q3's at the BMW recommended pressure and made the bike very harsh. I run the pressure now at just over 1-2PSI over the track recommended pressure. That works really well for me. I do know some people that run track pressures on the street with the logic of having the maximum grip available. That makes a lot of sense to me. The only reason I run a slightly higher pressure is due to center wear that I see when I do a lot of interstate riding. Generally the higher the pressure the lower the wear but also the lower the grip.
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It's kind of interesting the lack of information both ways. I find the Dunlop site's lack of hot pressures for the Q3 pretty frustrating. Pirelli has hot pressures listed on their site. I guess you can't have it all no matter what your tire choice is.
When it comes to turn in you can tweak the S1K platform to give you better turn in. The eccentric that the rear shock mounts to can be flipped to raise the back. Stock the bike comes in the low position. Flipping the eccentric could more than make up for a larger tire. Lighter wheels can also help with turn in.
I have heard that the more round profile tires gives a bike more predictable turn in. I'm looking forward to trying the 200 series Supercorsa SP's on my new bike at the track to see if I like them. I have experienced some of the Pirelli Slicks on the track but not the Supercorsa SP yet. I liked the slicks even though it worried me that with my slowish pace (relative to the owner of the bike) I would be able to keep them warm enough.
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Some awesome photos of the old days.
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Thanks for explaining. It's quite important to have a bike adjusted the way you are most comfortable with it.
As for the ABS "mushyness" I have noticed that myself and actually like a mushy lever. The reason I like it is the lever feels more progressive to me and allows me to better modulate what pressure I want to use with the brakes. I have an R6 that has a VERY firm lever. The brakes on it are quite good but I don't get as much travel from the lever. I always "feel" as though I'm on the verge of locking the front even though I'm not.
I have noticed over time my preferences change when I learn new things. Perhaps one day the mushy lever will drive me crazy when I start asking more of my brakes.
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That's a really good question. I have never really thought about why. My "guess" would be because of carcass deformation. In the rear a low pressure and lots carcass deformation gives the bike a lot of grip due to the heat generated and larger contact patch. The same would be true in the front however since that front wheel is a wheel that does the steering the deformation of the carcass would make the front end resist steering the bike. The larger the contact patch the more physical effort it takes to turn the bike. That's just a guess though.
Any experts out there on those round black things?
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Thanks rchase. I don't know if I'll ever get to pick Nate's brain as I'm down here in Australia but I'll certainly remember it if I'm ever up your way.
I see the DDC-optionable 2015 S1000RR will be running the 190/55 supercorsa rear. More generally, I wonder how the supercorsa tyres, whilst brilliant in the warm/dry will perform in the cold/wet. I wouldn't be that keen on riding it in the rain...and given all the TC calibration was probably done with that OE tyre, whether there'll be warranty issues if a rider chooses to change out to something a bit more street-friendly.
I have yet to ride the Supercorsa SP in the rain. It is a street tire and you are correct the BMW's TC system is calibrated for that tire. In rain mode I would not worry at all about grip. The electronics on the BMW are quite amazing. There's two stages to the TC system. The first stage reduces throttle input based on the lean angle sensor so the rider does not loose grip. If a loss of grip is detected the second stage of the TC system comes into play further adjusting the throttle input to prevent further loss of grip.
BMW does not care what kind of tires the bike is on when it comes to the warranty. My 2014 was delivered brand new from the dealer with Dunlop Q3's on it that I requested as part of my delivery.
I rode my S1000RR at the track in rain mode and did an experiment to get used to the electronics. I felt the bike holding me back as I ventured into the lean angle area that the bike considered out of bounds. I eventually got the courage to smash the throttle open (I would not recommend doing that until you understand the systems and are in the right mode) and you could feel the bike saving me from a bad throttle decision until the lean angle got up to the preset limit. When it did the bike quickly but evenly rolled in the power in a controlled fashion. It was much like having launch control for corner exits.
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A bigger tire should make it harder to turn, no? Dave Moss recently came to where we work to talk about tires and that's one of the takeaways.
I could quite easily have that backwards which would explain the writers complaints on turn in. My understanding was a 200 series tire was slightly taller and lifted the rear end a bit.
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That sounds like an awesome shopping list.
I'm not judging but I'm curious as to why you are considering the ABS bypass?
While I'm not one to turn off those systems on my bike I understand the need for some faster people to do that. On my BMW you can switch TC and ABS off and there's also tuning options in the Race Calibration kit. Switching these off rather than disabling them might give you an advantage if you end up racing in adverse conditions such as a cold track or a rainy track.
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Trust me. You aren't the only person overthinking things. That's one of my "problems" as well.
There is an advantage to overthinking. I find it allows me to better observe what I'm doing and that helps me better understand some of the small mistakes I have made. In Keith's books he talks about being able to observe as you ride to be able to improve. In his books he also talks about working on one thing at a time to improve those areas. You probably noticed that many of the schools drills take one element of riding and focus on it.
It sounds to me that you are well on your way to becoming a better rider already. If you have questions about stuff be sure to bring it up here in the forums. I can't tell you the amount of help I have received here in the forums just by asking a few questions.
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Pretty much. Most bikes are this way though.
If you take the price of most new bikes off the showroom floor and tried to "build your own" from parts out of their parts department it would be a LOT more expensive due to the increased parts prices. Some of this is due to the logistics in place for manufacturers to stock and provide these parts to support the bikes. They have to recover the costs of the warehouses of parts and the people involved to sell these parts to you when you are ready to buy them. They have to keep these parts available for many years after the bike leaves production to support the bikes. That's an expensive endeavor.
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In regards to the turn in and the article. I'm not really sure what the writer experienced or why he felt that way. The HP4 has two factors that would actually give it better turn in from a geometry and weight perspective. The HP4 is sitting on top of a 200 series Pirelli Supercorsa SP in the rear vs the 190 tire that the S1000RR comes stock with. It also has forged wheels which are lighter and have less rotational mass. Those two factors alone would give the HP4 a noticeable advantage over the standard S1000RR when it comes to turn in. I have yet to try an HP4 myself.
Suspension settings can also be adjusted on the HP4 electronically. In 2014 when I took the Superbike School at Barber one of the students (who's become a good friend of mine) had a brand new HP4 that she was riding. The BMW rally was running at the same time at Barber and Nate Kern the BMW test rider was there for the BMW rally. He found out that Betty was riding an HP4 and asked to show her the DDC system on her bike. Nate explained the system to Betty and tweaked some of her settings. We went out for another session afterwards and I noticed Betty was going a good bit faster than she was previously. She was completely thrilled with the new settings when she returned to the paddock as it seemed to transform her bike. Here's a photo I snapped of Betty and Nate while Nate was explaining how DDC worked. If you ever run into Nate at an event be sure to go up and pick his brain. He's super approachable and highly knowledgeable about all of the systems on the HP4 and S1000RR. It's drinking from the fire hose of knowledge.
The writers observations could be as little as some settings optimized for road riding that need to be changed to make the bike more optimized for the track. Just like a conventional suspension DDC has the ability to be tuned to the type of riding that you are doing. With DDC settings can be changed via the electronic menu instead of using wrenches.
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Pretty sure. Check this S1000RR forum post that refers to the list price of the engines. I have heard the 12K price referred to in other places as well.
List price for a BMW provided engine is not the only option of course. You could always pick up a used engine for less. For me though with a relatively brand new bike I take into account the cost of components if I decide to do a DIY project. If I were to strip out the threads in my engine block I would be on my own for repairs. If a dealership did it they would be on the hook for repairs. It's an exercise of cost savings vs risk.
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Yes. They are one time use. Woodcraft provides a set of screws to go with their covers. Here's one side of the Woodcraft case protection system on one of mine. I also have the Woodcraft Axle Sliders and swing arm slider spools as well as their frame sliders.
Another thing to think about. Engine cost for one of these bikes is about $12K. How much are the screws worth vs the risk? I'm rather mechanically inclined myself but I chose to have the dealer install mine. It was just easier and I did not have to worry. The cost was not too horrible. The other option of course is an independent motorcycle mechanic that works on a lot of track bikes. I'm lucky enough to have a guy that's an ex racer turned mechanic for simple things that I don't want to drag it to the dealer for.
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Welcome to the forums. Lots of great info here from coaches and students.
As for the clunky stuff. Been there myself. Still working through some of the minor details. One day (probably soon) you will look back and be amazed at the progress you have made. Once you stitch all those little things together amazing things start to happen.
One of the most enjoyable aspects of riding for me is the knowledge that I'll probably never completely "master" any of the techniques of riding. They are all a work in progress in refinement with lots of room for improvement along the way. When it comes to improvement the sky is the limit even for the professionals.
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That's great to hear. The 1199 is a great platform. I have even heard that you can race ARHMA with them which is something I can't do with my S1000RR's.
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I have a rather bent perspective on this which I will share. I have always been a huge fan of smaller bikes. I like the idea of their better handling and lighter weight. Most of my bikes have always been 600's or smaller displacements. I even own a Yamaha FZR400.
I spent a bit of time with a BMW S1000RR and it completely turned my world upside down. Here's a bike that handles quite well and has this amazing amount of power and a TC and ABS system that's quite advanced. Once I understood fully how all the electronics on the bike worked I was even more amazed with it. I'm a HUGE fan of the BMW S1000RR so much in fact I have two of them.
In my opinion modern 1L machines have broken the age old 600 vs 1000 thought process. The modern 1000's are lighter and more powerful and more than make up for minor weight differences with power. Their advanced features like Traction control and ABS gives a rider a number of advantages over the 600's that don't come with these features. It really comes down to what you think is most important. A slight handling advantage due to lower weight or a lot more power and electronic systems that are there to give you the confidence to go through corners faster in the first place? I never in a million years would have seen myself picking a big 1L machine.
The 1L machines are the testing ground for all the new technology. Active suspension, ABS, TC and all of the techno toys go on the 1L machines first.
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Good point T-McKeen. Lap times won't be the same due to the nature of the school and the drills. Some of the drills complicate passing a bit because of students trying alternate lines.
I used my lap time data from the school to see a constant improvement. Each session I was getting faster. Even though I was starting to get tired and thought I was taking it easy.
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Congratulations! That's an awesome gift!
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The last time I did the school at Barber on my personal bike they used an RFID type sticker that went on the front of the bike. In this photo the RFID sticker is below the number on the headlight on the Motorsport Colored Double R.
Lap timers typically operate on a infrared beacon. That beacon has to be active at the track. Most of the time trackday orgs setup their own lap timer beacons. If there's no beacon the lap timer won't operate.
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Welcome to the forum. Level 3 and 4 are great. Prepare to learn a LOT!
From The Showroom To The Superbike School
in School Questions/General Discussion
Posted
I saw Dave Moss asking about how people upgrade their bikes on Facebook and I shared this link. I went through the post and realized that I have not updated this thread with the other things that have been done to the bike. I moved from the Woodcraft rearsets to the BMW HP rearsets for more adjust ability. I also put the BMW HP race seat on for more grip with my leathers and a taller riding position for my long legs. I also ditched the stock exhaust and went with a slip on and a belly pan mostly for cosmetics. Here's a photo at a recent track day.
After riding a close friend's super well dialed in bike I realized that I probably should look at the suspension and some other options to make the bike a bit better on the track. I started doing the math and to get the bike where I wanted it for the track it was going to be upwards of 10K+. My friend ended up needing to get rid of his bike to get a new 2015 model so I bought it from him.
Recently I rode both of these machines back to back on both the track and the street. On the track the new bike makes my 2014 seem like it handles like a truck. On the street however it's a bit of a handful. The riding position is great for the track but not so great for the street. It also has a number of engine upgrades that cause problems. Because of the additional power you are pretty much stuck below 3rd and have to be really careful on the throttle. The 2014 is a MUCH better street bike. More comfortable riding position and you can actually ride it normally without worrying about speed as much (it's still 193hp). I understand better now the choices that BMW had to make when tuning these bikes for street and track. The new bike will become my dedicated track bike and the 2014 will be mostly a street bike and a backup bike for when it rains.
The new bike changed my perspective a bit on the electronics and how they are tuned. I was always super conservative with the mode I put my 2014 in and often found myself fighting against the electronics and pinning the ###### out of the throttle when I ran into the electronics. Still being in that mode of expecting the electronics to get in my way coming onto the straight at the track the new bike showed me the err in my ways by promptly launching the front wheel in the air when I thought I was being gentle on the throttle. The bike was in rain mode. Needless to say I was surprised. I found out later the bike has full power in all modes and very little wheelie control in any mode. If anything I have a better understanding and much less fear about the power. It's weird how that works.
Because of the identical paint I refer to the bike as "the twins". They might look the same but they are VERY different machines.