Hotfoot
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Posts posted by Hotfoot
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46 minutes ago, Jaybird180 said:
I tried to crack the gas as soon as my lean angle is set. Then I tried to wait until I had assured a tight line exit. It gave me the desired trajectory but it felt weird to wait so long to get on the gas. Trailbraking until I was on line didn’t seem to help much either. See...all over the place.
It would be a rare 180 degree turn where you could roll on the gas as soon as you have your lean angle set (at the beginning of the turn) and be able to roll on continuously for the whole rest of the turn. If the turn was large, and U shaped (as an example) you would most often have to roll off (or at least go flat) on the gas in the middle of the turn, more or less treating it as TWO turns, the first part with one turn point and apex and the second part with its own turn point and apex. Depending on the shape of the turn, you may or may not need to make another steering input to change your lean angle at the second turn point (ie if the turn tightens up in the second part, you will likely have to make a steering input to change the lean angle for the second part of the turn).
Alternatively, you could consider that your "real" turn point is somewhere in the middle of the 180 degree turn, a turn point that will line you up for the apex and exit you want. Everything before that would really just be pre-positioning to get to that turn point and you might very well be slowing down (off the gas and trail braking) ALL the way to the turn point which could be located near the middle of the 180 degree turn, or even later if it tightens up a lot at the end.
You could try working backwards from the exit (if exit speed is the priority) to find the exit line you want, then find the apex and turn point (in the second half of the turn) that will line you up for that without any additional change in lean angle . That will be your "second turn point" (or real turn point if you are thinking of it as one turn) then work backwards from THERE to find an entry line from the first part of the turn that will get you top that second turn point. Does that make sense?
If the turn is at the end of a fast straight and whatever comes after the 180 degree turn is slower, you may want to prioritize carrying the straightaway speed as long as possible and in that case you might choose a line that allows maximum trail braking as long and late as possible before you reach the second turn point, potentially sacrificing some speed in the latter part of the turn with a less optimum exit but a wide fast entry.
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2 hours ago, Jaybird180 said:
Looking for thought-line suggestions for taking 180 degree turns as I seem to be inconsistent in doing it. I have them at a several tracks I attend.
I know that the basic rule is to find a line that allow for application of Throttle Control Rule 1 - Great. But it still doesn't explain why I feel like I'm trying so many different things and getting results that are lackluster and at extremes; I'd like to reduce the variations so I can properly evaluate.
I think my entry speeds are ball-park consistent, which retrospectively are lower than I want; I think I can change that next time I go out by improving on my Quick Flick overall.
At one track the hairpin is at the end of the longest straight and if done correctly, I can get to the turnpoint for T2. I don't attend this track as often.
At the other track it's mid-circuit and what precedes it is a sweeping left. What I feel is amiss, is the exit of the sweeper can become a compromise of getting the right attack angle for the hairpin which exits onto a chicane that can be straightened if using an inside tight line. When I get the hairpin "wrong" on this track, I'm ALWAYS too low in RPM and downshifting on corner entry there is tricky because my line removes the straight, I have been going from the sweeping left to a hard right in a single motion - staying on the left side of the tire too long (hmmm...that's probably a clue?)
How are you choosing when to BEGIN your throttle roll-on?
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I guess the first item would be to identify what is important to you in terms of "skill level". If your lines are more consistent, your apexes are tighter, you are using lines that allow for better throttle control, you are relaxed, you are in control of the bike (i.e. it is going where you want and expect it to go), etc., your skill level is improving, based on those indicators.
However, if what you mean is: "can I get around the track FASTER than other riders?" you probably need to start racing!
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On 10/2/2019 at 8:20 PM, asic_ridah said:
What you are saying is “impossible” if the lean angle is static!! It’s simple impossible to increase or decrease a radius without changing the diameter of the circle, the ONLY way to change the diameter of the circle on a bike is to change the lean angle!
NO OTHER WAY!!!!
When you are leaned over the front wheel DOES NOT STEER THE BIKE. Only the rear wheel can do that! The front only controls lean, the rear steers the bike, and if you increase throttle (and there is sufficient traction) the rear wheel will pull/push the bike upward, you have to counter steer after releasing throttle to lean the bike further to to turn tighter.
Well, it IS true that it is impossible to decrease a radius without changing the diameter of the circle.
Above, you said that "when you are leaned over the front wheel does not steer the bike". So, when you ride through a left-right chicane, you lean the bike left, and then when you need to turn the bike back to the right, how do you accomplish that? Are you saying you use the throttle ALONE to change the bike's direction of travel?
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On 10/1/2019 at 7:28 AM, asic_ridah said:
Hi All
1. What action causes the bike to stand up braking or acceleration.
2. Is accelerating while adding lean angle a good thing?
3. Does accelerating make the bike harder to lean?
4. Does brakin or coming off throttle make the bike easier to lean?
1) Braking, while leaned over, can cause the bike to stand up, see my more detailed answer above. On a properly set up sport bike, accelerating does NOT cause the bike to stand up. Accelerating WILL increase the radius of a circle but WITHOUT changing lean angle. A rider who thinks the bike stands up because of the throttle is unconsciously steering it up with the bars. Note - a bike with a more extreme, non-neutral setup - like a chopper with a stretched out front end, or a bike with a serious suspension problem - may act differently.
2) No. You are adding load to the rear tire in two different ways at once and that can easily overload it and lead to a rear tire slide, without a lot of warning to the rider or time to correct it. Doing one at a time is a much safer approach.
3) Yes, the front forks are more extended which makes it more difficult to steer the bike and there is less weight on the front tire which affects traction - the most extreme example would be accelerating so hard that the front tire is off the ground, obviously at that point there is no traction at all on the front tire.
4) Coming off the throttle makes it easier to lean the bike. It compresses the front end which steepens the steering angle and makes the bike easier to steer. Braking lightly can do the same, however on many bikes braking REALLY HARD can make the bike harder to steer; I'm not sure all of the reasons for that but I think it has to do with overloading the front tire (deforming it) and suspension, not to mention the difficulty for the rider of keeping enough pressure off the bars to steer effectively under hard braking.
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On 10/1/2019 at 7:28 AM, asic_ridah said:
Hi All
I have a group of riders who actually believe that the act of braking causes the bike to stand up!
PLEASE HELP!!! I need a forum moderator or an accredited expert to respond. Please explain away this myth!
Braking, with the front brake, while leaned over in a turn, can definitely cause the bike to stand up noticeably - assuming the braking is hard enough to shift significant weight to the front and NOT so hard that the wheel actually slides, the braking forces cause a friction drag of the contact patch against the pavement that makes the front wheel want to turn to the inside, which creates a countersteering effect and stands the bike up. So when braking while leaned over, the rider has to resist that turn of the front wheel by pushing on the opposite bar to counteract it, to keep the bike on line (i.e., if in a left hand corner the rider would have to push on the left bar to offset the countersteering effect of the braking). This can get tricky to manage, as the rider is restricting movement of the bars, and placing additional load on the front end, so braking TOO hard while leaned over can exceed the limits of traction of the front tire.
If braking verrrrry gently the counter steering effect is so slight that the rider may not feel any tendency of the bike to stand up, and the fact that the bike is slowing down will eventually decrease the radius of the turn, so a rider who only brakes very gently while leaned over (or uses just rear brake - which can also be tricky) may not ever notice any tendency of the bike to stand up. But braking harder or more abruptly makes it much more noticeable. Or, a rider who has a lot of experience with using the front brake while leaned over may be so accustomed to automatically pressing on the opposite bar to counteract the countersteering effect may not be aware of the bike's tendency to stand up, and a rider like that would have to go out and consciously try to relax the arms and observe what happens if he or she ADDS front brake in a corner while leaned over.
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On 10/2/2019 at 8:24 AM, asic_ridah said:
BTW the reason I came here is because Keith’s video on Twist Wrist actually says that dramatic braking while cornering will make the bike straighten up dramatically.
Its leading individuals I know to think that braking in corners is the safest way out of jam or a method of picking the bike up if you LOOSE traction!!!
Thats why I want a Expert here to explain away this misinterpretation of what Keith was saying!
THIS IS INSANE!!!
Hello, I'm glad you found our forum and came here to look for some additional understanding, and you bring up some VERY interesting topics, about which there can be a lot of confusion - as you have seen. I'm happy to help out, as are many other very friendly and very knowledgeable riders here on the forum, but first I respectfully ask that we calm down a little on the caps and exclamation points, this is a friendly and informative forum and discussions can and should be calm and productive. As I'm sure you know, typing in all caps and using a lot of !!!! is the internet version of "shouting" and we can have a very lively and interesting discussion without that.
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If you do a forum search you can find other threads asking this same question and can see a variety of answers. Are you looking for a 2-day camp or two single day schools?
Laguna is a great track but not always the easiest, logistically, for travel and lodging, and it can be cool and damp there. Vegas is one that is easy for travel, lots of flight options, and Streets of Willow is a technical track and its a great one for coaches to maximize their time with you, and it rarely rains there. Barber and VIR are both really beautiful but can be hot and humid. Best to look at the schedule to determine what options would work during your preferred time period, then narrow it down a bit from there. All the tracks are great and there are a lot of choices, if you narrow it down to a few it will be easier for forum members to give you some feedback on the tracks.
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16 hours ago, Jaybird180 said:
Ok @faffi. I understand. I think I took a break from the forum around that time but I did see a few posts from you that puzzled me. You filled in the blanks.
There is good info on this in TOTWII, Chapter 25, Traction, there is a section about "traction riders" and if you read that whole chapter it gives a nice description of how different riders use and perceive traction, and the pros and cons of these different approaches, I think both you and Faffi will find it very interesting.
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Pretty funny and I saw a LOT of familiar faces in it!!
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That is awesome, great application of what you learned and I'm glad you were able to keep calm and do all the right things.
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23 hours ago, tzrider said:
Another factor I haven't seen mentioned is that as you lean over, the final drive ratio changes. the difference between upright and fully leaned is the equivalent of half a downshift. This puts the engine in a different part of the powerband and can alter the effect a given amount of roll-on has, seeming to amplify the torque as the lean angle increases.
Good point, and I made great use of that while racing this weekend. My bike was geared a little too high for a particular corners so my drive out of the corner was suffering, so I tried changing my line to stay leaned over a bit longer - somewhat counter intuitive for getting a good drive, but it worked. Before, I was riding a more squared off line and standing the bike up but then my RPM was too low; leaving it leaned over a bit longer put me about 500 rpm higher and the bike did not lug on the exit. (To be clear, I wasn't ADDING lean angle - I was just maintaining my lean angle longer instead of doing an earlier pick-up.) On my low horsepower bike it made a difference, and I was very happy I knew how to apply that information!
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On 9/17/2019 at 3:12 PM, trueblue550 said:
The very first thing I learned from Keith was from that classroom scene in the TOTW II video: "Once the throttle is cracked open, it is rolled on evenly, smoothly and constantly throughout remainder of turn." In my opinion, when I feel I need maintenance throttle it is because my entry speed was too low. I can't imagine getting on the gas before turn in. In some sections like turns 4/5/6 at SOW, I may not ever close the throttle all the way but just stop rolling on while turning.
Well said.
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I know the video you are referring to. I advise that you search for other racer forums discussing this idea. There is a LENGTHY debate on another forum on what he possibly could have meant when he explained it that way. It's obviously confusing even to the top tier of current and capable racers, the discussions make that apparent, I really didn't see anything from anyone that made it make sense.
It's SO confusing that I respectfully request you change the title of your post to something more like "throttle and brake timing question" so that we don't have students reading that title and getting confused about what the normal sequence should be.
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Yes you can use your own helmet as long as it is in good condition (not damaged) and is DOT or Snell approved, and is a full-face helmet. (If it is more than 5 years old, a school helmet would be a better idea from a safety standpoint.) As far as I know helmet cams are not allowed. The school helmets are Schuberth helmets and are very nice, BTW.
You don't need to bring much - a purpose-made underlayer like a riding undersuit, or UnderAmour, makes wearing leathers more comfortable, cooler, and easier to get on and off. The school has underlayer full suits and separate shirt/leggings for sale, or you can pick up UnderArmour at any sporting goods store.
Based on the date you mentioned, you must be coming to Streets of Willow. It will be hot during the day but can be surprisingly cool in the mornings (it can be 60 in the morning and 95 later in the day), you might want to bring a light jacket for the morning.
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On 8/29/2019 at 4:14 PM, Cobie Fair said:
Makes total sense. This year my riding has taken step up, and interestingly enough it was mostly due to getting strong, in particular the legs...made it easier to hold onto the bike.
How did you measure or perceive an improvement in your riding? What told you it had taken a step up?
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Brains!
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It sure is hard for me to keep quiet on this one....
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Trying to "crouch with your weight on the pegs at all times" would be very physically demanding. There are times when getting some weight off the seat is beneficial, like when riding over bumps, or to facilitate shifting across the seat (hip flick, from Level 3) but generally it is too exhausting to try never to put weight in the seat.
You can find a lot of prior discussion on this topic if you do a search of the forum. Here is one thread to have a look at:
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We do occasionally have riders post pictures or videos here and ask for feedback, which we do provide. We also have students who have been to school contact their coaches afterwards for some additional help via email or here on the forum. It is something we would do, on a limited basis, at no charge, for former students... but it is very difficult to do with people who HAVEN'T been to a CSS school because you end up spending loads of time trying to explain WHY something should be changed... info they would already have if they had been to a school. For a student who has already had the training, it can be just a reminder or a clarification, but for someone who hasn't had any of it, it can be a very lengthy process, not to mention potentially out of order - for example, trying to fix someone's suspension settings when they have poor throttle control is a waste of time. Or trying to fix body position for someone with no concept of lines, or who does not know how to steer the bike.
It can be difficult sometimes to diagnose things from video alone - having some discussion with the student is more effective, because we can figure out what the student did just BEFORE the visible error on the video, or what (potentially flawed) logic led them to do a certain thing so we can work through it and figure out a better solution. As you say above, just posting a video and asking for feedback can lead to a lot of bad advice, so while we are happy to help on here, I don't know that offering video review as an independent service would ultimately reflect well on the school since the results probably would not be comparable to what students would get from attending a school and getting in-person coaching. But that is just my opinion, maybe Cobie or Dylan will chime in with another viewpoint.
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On 8/10/2019 at 12:50 PM, faffi said:
That sounds right to me. As long as we are under control - and what we can control can be practiced and learned and expanded - we can act in a calculated way. But once you are out of control, you will revert to your personal SRs. With practice, and also personal abilities will help here, there is a grey zone where you are out of control, but still able to fight the SRs and act in a manner practiced. This could be looking into/around a corner despite the feeling of having entered too fast. However, if you enter way too fast, I reckon SRs will strike. For some, SRs will strike early and hard, others can be cooler customers. Still, at one stage I reckon panic will take over for everyone.
We can see this every now and then on TV even with the very best MotoGP racers, where they appear target fixate and go straight (off the road) when entering a corner too fast, even though it appears that the speed did get low enough to turn before they left the asphalt and hit the gravel. Then you have MM, who doesn't seem to have SRs at all 😁
I think so, too - if you go WAY past your limits and feel out of control I think the SRs are going to kick in hard. Keep in mind also that mental and physical state contribute to this, too - if a person is tired, dehydrated, lacking in sleep, hasn't eaten enough, etc. it affects mental focus and can definitely cause SRs to kick in earlier/harder and give the person less ability to combat them. Definitely something to keep in mind while riding, especially on very hot days or long rides.
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3 hours ago, Jaybird180 said:
Wes- I hope you got what you needed from this thread and that it would be okay for me to leverage it to ask for help for my personal SR - at least the one I want to work on 1st (smile).
I have a tendency to grip the left bar too tight. No idea why, nor can I see an apparent pattern of when I do it most often. When I notice I’m gripping hard it is when I tell myself to relax because my hand is already tired.
A few thoughts come to mind:
1) check your RIGHT hand - do you inadvertently push on the right side bar when rolling on the gas, and therefore have to push ALSO with the left to prevent the bars from turning?
2) Check the fit of your gloves, are they tight or restrictive?
3) Check your left-side body position (lower body particularly) to see if you are somehow forced into some tension in your left hand (feeling like you are slipping off, or having to hold yourself on), and check to see if you are twisting your body to one side - have someone look at you from behind to look for twisting or tension.
4) Per your other thread, are you tense in general on left hand turns, mentally worried about something?
5) Is there a lot of vibration in the bars? That can cause some mild numbing which can cause you to grip tighter which can lead to the sort of fatigue you mention. Some smaller bikes can transmit a LOT of buzzing in the bars, especially if the bars are lightweight and the grips are thin. The effect could be more prominent on the left hand because you are not moving it or repositioning it as often as the throttle hand.
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On 8/9/2019 at 11:53 PM, Roberts said:
At the two day class at the Ridge in Shelton, WA CSS provided the gear. The gloves were Alpinestars, as were the boots.
Day one was rain. Fortunately, it was a nice warm Washington rain...so not too bad.
We all got wet, and spent the day in soggy leathers, but strangely, my feet stayed dry. The gloves got wet, but not too wet to take on and off. I was impressed enough that I went shopping for Alpinestar gear when I got home, but the same gear is either not made anymore, or it's only sold on 'black sites' known only to the inner circle of CSS. Does anyone know anything about this? The only track gear that seems to be coming from Alpinestar today is all vented desert style race gear. Up here in Washington we tend more toward Gortex then perforated leathers.
Any input would be welcome.
Alpinestars boots and gloves are readily available, I'm not sure why you were having trouble - are you shopping in person at retail stores or online? Revzilla.com has a large selection of Alpinestars boots and gloves, as an example, and they provide a lot of info on sizing and reviews and a good return policy, you might try there. It is getting harder to find good gear at retail stores because I think the online competition is causing them to stock less and less product.
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Are you pushing the bike down underneath you instead of hanging your body off to reduce the lean angle?
Skill benchmarks
in School Questions/General Discussion
Posted
For sure this is difficult to judge, for anyone. Laptimes are a measurement, and being able to achieve very CONSISTENT laptimes is a good indicator that a rider is well in control of their lines and speed and that the error rate is low, all of which indicates good riding skills. Seeing one's own laptimes come down on a given day at a given track is a good indicator that the rider is figuring out the track and making improvements. Being able to stay relaxed and ride without errors and without exhaustion is a great improvement, and something the rider can observe relatively easily for themselves.
However - trying to compare laptimes to other riders may not be very meaningful unless you are racing . At track days and especially at schools, riders ARE, by definition, working on making changes and sorting things out so their laptimes can vary considerably from actual go-for-it race pace times. At CSS riders are asked to ride at around 75% pace so that they have enough free attention to make observations and changes in their riding, plus there are formats and drills and sometimes different track configurations (compared to how other organizations run their day) so a school day laptime may not mean much when compared to a race laptime, or even open track day times. So if you are looking at a CSS laptime and trying to decide if you could race at that track, it may not really translate. Going out and doing a new racer's school at that track (unless you already have a race license?) would allow you to get a sense of whether you can be competitive, and most of them do a mock race at the end of the day, which is fun and instructive, and most schools will be able to tell you if your laptime is acceptable for you to race there. Racing creates a whole new set of challenges - the track pace is fast and that will immediately push you to find places where you can go faster, and likely make you push yourself enough to reveal next areas of improvement in your riding.
I think most of all you will need to decide your personal priorities for improvement, THEN figure out how to measure. What are your goals as a rider? Are you interested in being calmer on the track? Safer? More accurate? More consistent? More comfortable? Do you want to be able to learn new tracks faster? Do you want quicker laptimes? Do you want to ride in A group at your local track? Do you want to start club racing?
Once you have your own goals set, finding ways to measure that should be easier.
Interesting question about whether it changes based on the track... I guess my answer would be that there are certain skills that identify a skilled rider. Consistent entry speeds, good control of the bike (accurate, effective steering with steering rate appropriate to the turn), secure, locked-on body position, relaxed upper body, and good visual skills come to mind. One can watch a skilled rider on a new track, and they may be riding slow and figuring out lines but you can see the skills are there and know that once they get the lines figured out they will be able to ride consistently and quickly. You can also go to an open track day and see someone getting good laptimes (by pushing really hard) but leaning the bike over too far on the gas, exiting corners at the ragged edge of the track, making steering corrections, stabbing the brake, hanging off too far and steering ineffectively, making rough downshifts, etc. and see that they may be going pretty fast but they are lacking some really important basics and although they know the track well, they are hitting some big barriers that will hold them back and/or cause them to crash if they try to go any quicker.