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The 60/40 Question


Wurn
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In Twist 2, it says all about throttle on/off and turn point. I get that but actually not really know how to apply it to its fullest yet.

 

And yes I have never done a CSS but speaking to Appanna and i'll definately be doing one early next year (hopefully ^_^ )

 

So my question is, at the Turn point when your braking is done and your off the throttle, dipping the bike in for the corner, when excately do you apply the throttle to get the 60/40 (its suppose to read 40front/60rear) balance going?

 

When you watch the onboard cams of the MotoGP guys, you can clearly hear they brake, throw it into the corner coast with no throttle at all allmost all the way to the apex (depending on the corner but most of the times) and then allmost straight on the throttle. I know they have superior bikes and tires so im not going to pretend i can do this. But this is allmost contradictory to Twist 2 surely?

 

I dont understand the link between the brake/off the throttle/turn point entry/ on throttle rule. Most of the times i try not to brake (rather use engine braking) to settle the suspension, gear down to keep the bike in the revs and be on the throttle from just after ive leaned it into the corner. THis however brings me to the SR factor of going wide/drifting which luckily i allmost never do.

 

Ive noticed that my SR is definately my holding back factor, that and the fact that my bike is my transport and dont want to ditch it.

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In Twist 2, it says all about throttle on/off and turn point. I get that but actually not really know how to apply it to its fullest yet.

 

And yes I have never done a CSS but speaking to Appanna and i'll definately be doing one early next year (hopefully ^_^ )

 

So my question is, at the Turn point when your braking is done and your off the throttle, dipping the bike in for the corner, when excately do you apply the throttle to get the 60/40 (its suppose to read 40front/60rear) balance going?

 

When you watch the onboard cams of the MotoGP guys, you can clearly hear they brake, throw it into the corner coast with no throttle at all allmost all the way to the apex (depending on the corner but most of the times) and then allmost straight on the throttle. I know they have superior bikes and tires so im not going to pretend i can do this. But this is allmost contradictory to Twist 2 surely?

 

I dont understand the link between the brake/off the throttle/turn point entry/ on throttle rule. Most of the times i try not to brake (rather use engine braking) to settle the suspension, gear down to keep the bike in the revs and be on the throttle from just after ive leaned it into the corner. THis however brings me to the SR factor of going wide/drifting which luckily i allmost never do.

 

Ive noticed that my SR is definately my holding back factor, that and the fact that my bike is my transport and dont want to ditch it.

 

Hi firebeast,

 

If you look at Twist of the Wrist 2, page 29, diagrams 1 and 2, it explains this, and shows some diagrams. should help understand the point your asking about.

 

With respect to the MotoGP boys, as we've discussed, they're trail braking, so although they're off the throttle, they're on the brakes in many cases right upto the Apex, and then they're back to the throttle, following the same old rule we are. The slght difference they do have though is they have complex electronics to lean on, so application may be a little more abrupt than say you or I on our street bikes might be able to get away with.

 

Bullet

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In Twist 2, it says all about throttle on/off and turn point. I get that but actually not really know how to apply it to its fullest yet.

 

And yes I have never done a CSS but speaking to Appanna and i'll definately be doing one early next year (hopefully ^_^ )

 

So my question is, at the Turn point when your braking is done and your off the throttle, dipping the bike in for the corner, when excately do you apply the throttle to get the 60/40 (its suppose to read 40front/60rear) balance going?

 

When you watch the onboard cams of the MotoGP guys, you can clearly hear they brake, throw it into the corner coast with no throttle at all allmost all the way to the apex (depending on the corner but most of the times) and then allmost straight on the throttle. I know they have superior bikes and tires so im not going to pretend i can do this. But this is allmost contradictory to Twist 2 surely?

 

I dont understand the link between the brake/off the throttle/turn point entry/ on throttle rule. Most of the times i try not to brake (rather use engine braking) to settle the suspension, gear down to keep the bike in the revs and be on the throttle from just after ive leaned it into the corner. THis however brings me to the SR factor of going wide/drifting which luckily i allmost never do.

 

Ive noticed that my SR is definately my holding back factor, that and the fact that my bike is my transport and dont want to ditch it.

 

 

You will also read in twist 2, crack the throttle and begin the roll on as soon as possible! My bike is also my transport but you have to get the bike stable and to achieve that you must crack open the throttle, I have worked hard on this and its an SR definitely worth getting over! Check the Moto GP guys in qualifying to see their true riding style!

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mmm, and i thought i read Twist 2 well enough. Honestly even reading a hundred times i still have so many question. So many things i think i understand but dont. I seriously need help. Im not saying this cause i feel unsafe or riding myself scared here, i just WANT/NEED to know the best way to ride fast/safely.

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mmm, and i thought i read Twist 2 well enough. Honestly even reading a hundred times i still have so many question. So many things i think i understand but dont. I seriously need help. Im not saying this cause i feel unsafe or riding myself scared here, i just WANT/NEED to know the best way to ride fast/safely.

Did you find what I meant, and it made sense?

 

 

If there is any consolation for you my friend, we've all got lots to learn. Being a coach is just a step on the journey of learning. We're constantly adding more to the info bank, and you just keep working at it. I've read twist at least 12 times, and I still learn things. I think if you probably asked Keith, Cobie et al, they'd tell you they're still picking up things as they go as well, and they've been riding for a long old time. ( :lol: ).

 

Bullet

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Ive gone back to Page29 and re read it and it make sense but ... i dont know if my brain is fried or if im just overloaded with info. I thought about it and what you said and still sitting with this one question.

 

When you brake and off the throttle, turn into the turn point, for those few seconds you have the bike dipping into the turn point/corner surely here you cannot apply any throttle on? surely here you must be loading the front more than the rear? :(

 

WHy i say this is cause i did feel this at one turn where i use to lazy turn into it, but on this given day deliberately braked later and turned in later. I could feel the weight and pressure on the front, and it just scared me honestly. The bike was handling it perfectly and nothing gave way or slipped but it just felt like i was pushing the front. HOW do i translate this feeling to anyone, so that they can tell me that its either normal/correct or that i was playing with fire here and doing things wrong?

 

mmm, and i thought i read Twist 2 well enough. Honestly even reading a hundred times i still have so many question. So many things i think i understand but dont. I seriously need help. Im not saying this cause i feel unsafe or riding myself scared here, i just WANT/NEED to know the best way to ride fast/safely.

Did you find what I meant, and it made sense?

 

 

If there is any consolation for you my friend, we've all got lots to learn. Being a coach is just a step on the journey of learning. We're constantly adding more to the info bank, and you just keep working at it. I've read twist at least 12 times, and I still learn things. I think if you probably asked Keith, Cobie et al, they'd tell you they're still picking up things as they go as well, and they've been riding for a long old time. ( :lol: ).

 

Bullet

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Hi mate,

 

No your not wrong about that, your brain isn't fried at all. You read it right, and you do exactly as you defined it. Once you've started to turn the bike, there is a period when your off the throttle, and the weight is a little more onto the front for sure. It's not as bad trail braking, and the severity of the turn, camber and things can influence exactly how much weight you have on the front for sure.

 

So the big question is, when do you come back onto the throttle..? Well, if you read pages 24 and 25 of TW2, it will be revealed to you. <_<

 

Bullet

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Hi Firebeast,

 

I'd definitely recommend that you follow Keith Code's advice and the techniques that they teach in the California Superbike Schools of gently rolling on the throttle from very early in the corner.

 

Yes, the MotoGP guys continue to brake a long way into the corner but that is sooo much harder to do and is inviting a low-side crash. We mortals have to remember that the MotoGP guys have a super-human feel for what the tyres are doing and super-human finesse (not to say anthing of hugely superior components and set-up of their suspension, etc).

 

Braking into the corner puts/keeps a high load on the front tyre and, as we've all been told, a tyre has a finite amount of grip. So, if you're cornering and braking at the same time, the amount of grip being used up by the cornering forces added to the amount of grip being used by the braking forces can very easily exceed the total available grip.

 

Running wide after rolling on the throttle is not the result of rolling on the throttle. Instead, it is the result of either turning into the corner too early (a natural tendency), which causes your exit line from the corner to be angled very much to the outside of the track or by bad suspension set up, as I'll explain below:

 

A bike turns quicker if the forks have a steep angle. For example, on a sportbike the angle of the forks angle is steeper than on a cruiser.

 

When you accelerate, the rear of the bike wants to squat down and the front wants to sit up. If the suspension is not correctly set up, the amount of rear squat and/or the amount of situp at the front could be excessive, which would cause the angle of the forks to be less steep, which then causes the bike to want to run wide on exit.

 

If that's the case, it may be that your rear spring is too light for your weight and compresses too easily under acceleration; and/or it could be that your rear compression damping is too soft and allows your rear to squat too quickly; and/or it could be that your front rebound damping is too soft and allows your front to come up too quickly.

 

However, it could also be that your fork springs are too hard for your weight and/or your front compression damping is too hard and isn't allowing the bike to dip enough at the front under braking and cornering load so, when you start accelerating, you're already in a nose-too-high attitude.

 

If you suspect suspension then get an expert to look at it. It can lead to disaster if you play with suspension settings and don't understand the consequences that each setting can lead to!

 

Another thing that may help keep the bike on its line is to consciously keep a little forward pressure on the inside grip to keep the bike low while you're gently rolling on the throttle. Start releasing the forward pressure on the grip when you want to allow the bike to start to stand up so that you can really pile on the power.

 

However, remember that the same 'total amount of grip' principle applies to the rear tyre. A lot of high-sides (very nasty things!) are caused by applying the throttle too quickly mid-corner. A lot of the available grip of the rear tyre is already being used up with cornering so suddenly adding acceleration forces to the rear tyre can make it lose grip and ... (Aargh!)

 

Definitely get comfortable and competent with the Keith Code and CSS recommended technique before you start trail braking into corners.

 

Cheers,

 

Taras

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WOW man wait on here, im not even contemplating trail braking as it is. THx for the excellent explenation.

 

As it is my suspension feels perfect to be honest. I hardly run wide in a corner and when i do i know excately why and yes its 95% of the time because of Lazy turning (early into a corner) and other percentage cause i gave too much throttle too early in the corner.

 

My question was best answered by Bullet in his last post. But what you said just confirms me that when it does come down to suspension settings i need the professionals help and for that i know excately who to take it to.

 

Thx for answers guys.

 

Hi Firebeast,

 

I'd definitely recommend that you follow Keith Code's advice and the techniques that they teach in the California Superbike Schools of gently rolling on the throttle from very early in the corner.

 

Yes, the MotoGP guys continue to brake a long way into the corner but that is sooo much harder to do and is inviting a low-side crash. We mortals have to remember that the MotoGP guys have a super-human feel for what the tyres are doing and super-human finesse (not to say anthing of hugely superior components and set-up of their suspension, etc).

 

Braking into the corner puts/keeps a high load on the front tyre and, as we've all been told, a tyre has a finite amount of grip. So, if you're cornering and braking at the same time, the amount of grip being used up by the cornering forces added to the amount of grip being used by the braking forces can very easily exceed the total available grip.

 

Running wide after rolling on the throttle is not the result of rolling on the throttle. Instead, it is the result of either turning into the corner too early (a natural tendency), which causes your exit line from the corner to be angled very much to the outside of the track or by bad suspension set up, as I'll explain below:

 

A bike turns quicker if the forks have a steep angle. For example, on a sportbike the angle of the forks angle is steeper than on a cruiser.

 

When you accelerate, the rear of the bike wants to squat down and the front wants to sit up. If the suspension is not correctly set up, the amount of rear squat and/or the amount of situp at the front could be excessive, which would cause the angle of the forks to be less steep, which then causes the bike to want to run wide on exit.

 

If that's the case, it may be that your rear spring is too light for your weight and compresses too easily under acceleration; and/or it could be that your rear compression damping is too soft and allows your rear to squat too quickly; and/or it could be that your front rebound damping is too soft and allows your front to come up too quickly.

 

However, it could also be that your fork springs are too hard for your weight and/or your front compression damping is too hard and isn't allowing the bike to dip enough at the front under braking and cornering load so, when you start accelerating, you're already in a nose-too-high attitude.

 

If you suspect suspension then get an expert to look at it. It can lead to disaster if you play with suspension settings and don't understand the consequences that each setting can lead to!

 

Another thing that may help keep the bike on its line is to consciously keep a little forward pressure on the inside grip to keep the bike low while you're gently rolling on the throttle. Start releasing the forward pressure on the grip when you want to allow the bike to start to stand up so that you can really pile on the power.

 

However, remember that the same 'total amount of grip' principle applies to the rear tyre. A lot of high-sides (very nasty things!) are caused by applying the throttle too quickly mid-corner. A lot of the available grip of the rear tyre is already being used up with cornering so suddenly adding acceleration forces to the rear tyre can make it lose grip and ... (Aargh!)

 

Definitely get comfortable and competent with the Keith Code and CSS recommended technique before you start trail braking into corners.

 

Cheers,

 

Taras

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