Question On Quick Steering?

[xtrmln]

I attended the level 1 at infinion in feb. and I have a question on drill #3. Coming into the class I felt as though I had a pretty good steering rate. I practiced that alot after reading TOTW II. While at the class however with the instruction and the drill I knew that I had improved alot and could improve some more. I know that I still need to improve more. My question though is this. From attending other trackdays I'm wondering if the quickest I can do it at my present level is correct for every turn? At high speed (for me 120-150mph) its obviously not as quick as a low speed corner. However I could surely turn it slower. Is rpm-speed effected more from turning the bike onto the edges faster than slower in this case? It obviously doesn't require a steep lean angle for the given corner I'm thinking of but I could easily do more of a weave than 2 short quick direction changes. Which is faster?

[stuman]

I'd like to tryto answer your question, but I'm not really sure what you are asking.

[GregGorman]

"From attending other trackdays I'm wondering if the quickest I can do it at my present level is correct for every turn?"

 

Well that depends on what you want from the turn and the turn itself. If you have a series of S-turns, you want to get the bike from side to side as quickly as possible. If you have a long decreasing radius turn you'll have a slow turn-in.

 

Turning the bike quickly is a tool to use to go through a turn using less lean angle or to go through a turn faster at the same lean angle a slower turn-in would put you at. You can use it to help answer problems with going around a corner - "Can I turn the bike quicker?"

 

"Is rpm-speed effected more from turning the bike onto the edges faster than slower in this case?"

 

The increase in RPM is purely mechanical due to the changes in circumference of the tire. The difference between turning the bike slowly and turning the bike quickly is in the acceleration of the rear wheel not the actual speed it attains. Allthough, it can also be said that turning the bike quickly will cause less of a speed difference due to the bike being more vertical than turning slowly.

 

"It obviously doesn't require a steep lean angle for the given corner I'm thinking of but I could easily do more of a weave than 2 short quick direction changes. Which is faster?"

 

I don't really understand what you're saying here.

[xtrmln]

I am actually thinking of a specific turn. It's at pacific Raceways in Kent WA. It is actually a long straight which makes a left kink then a shorter straight which at the end makes a right hander. The whole section is under acceleration until I have my bike straight up and down heading for my turn point going into turn three which is a long sweeping 2nd gear left hander. The left kink is off of parallel for a small distance and the right is a long graduall right. The whole section is fast. For me 100-150. There has to be 2 steering inputs to make both these corners 1 left 1 right. At that speed I can turn the bike quickly safely (of course not as quickly as lower speed corners) but I could also turn it slower and still make the turns. So my question is which way if any would be faster? I have not been able to get splits as of yet to work on this and see by experiment for my self.

[GregGorman]

For me, the faster way is the way of less work so it sounds like I would turn the bike quickly so I could get back to enjoying my relaxation time on the straight.

[AndyIbbott]

Hi,

 

Can I clear up one point, that of Lean Angle and quick turns. You can quick turn to 5 degrees if that is what the corner and your arc needs. You can over lean it or under lean it. The 2 step drill is the key to getting your quick turn just right. If you know where you are going it's much easier to turn it JUST THE RIGHT AMOUNT.

 

I hope this helps,

 

Andy Ibbott

School Director (Europe)

[xtrmln]

Thanks for the input. I think thats what I will work on next time I'm at the track. I guess I actually just need to relax a little more through that section and really find my turnpoint for the next corner earlier rather than putting so much attention on turn rate through that fast section. Hmmm I think a lightbulb just came on here eheh thats what I should have been doing in the first place.

[GregGorman]

Hmmm I think a lightbulb just came on here

 

That's very cool.

[Blue636]

Hi,

 

Can I clear up one point, that of Lean Angle and quick turns. You can quick turn to 5 degrees if that is what the corner and your arc needs. You can over lean it or under lean it. The 2 step drill is the key to getting your quick turn just right. If you know where you are going it's much easier to turn it JUST THE RIGHT AMOUNT.

 

I hope this helps,

 

Andy Ibbott

School Director (Europe)

Thanks for this post. While at Level 1 I wanted to ask the question about over-shooting the lean angle by quick turn because I did it on a few turns but now this makes more sense. And come to think of it, by the end of the day when we were doing the 2-step drill I really began to notice I was getting closer to the desired lean angle for every given corner. It's amazing how the school is structured - where you start, how you progress, and where you end seems almost perfect! Keith sure does know his stuff and right now I'm scrounging up extra money to get to Level 2 ASAP.

 

See you guys there!

[JeF4y]

Let me explain my observation and results of lazy turning in racing.

 

First off, I have been a lazy turn person. It has cost me many times... Now, I am trying to turn correctly and here is what I find.

 

I will follow people into a corner. While I am staying at the edge of the track, looking through the corner, continuing to head straight towards my turn in point, many other riders drift inward and actually end up starting their turn from about 1/2way across the track.

 

The lazy rider will be THROUGH the corner by the time I turn in, but I nail it in as I should, and roll on immediately. This puts me on the correct line while the lazy guy has MUCH more lean angle than I do, and he's running wide.

 

My mid-corner and exit speed are significantly higher than the lazy turner, and I make the pass on the exit of the turn.

 

In one race weekend since my 2 day camp, I did this probably a dozen times.... Am I perfect? No. Am I working on it? You bet!

[Blue636]

That's a good observation. Now it really makes me question why the Pridmores would teach a tighter line and an earlier turn in, how does it benefit anyone? I've never attended their schools, as Keith's is the only class I've attended, but I've heard it from other people. It just doesn't make sense after hearing Keith explain turn-in and quick steering himself.

[Keith Code]

Blue636

 

Pridmore's whole deal is smooth riding and if you take those low, early turn in lines then it makes all of the transitions blend together pretty well and it is smooth. That goes for the other school's and their banner techniques as well. Freddie carries the Trailbraking banner at his deal, same thing, very smooth transitions into the corner. If smooth was the only goal then these guys would have all of the answers, just be smooth.

 

So we see that there is something to be said for that and mastering smooth riding for rain situations, for example, is definitely to the point.

 

There are however situations that crop up from these techniques that make them a little more risky than it would seem. Not to go over the whole thing but just as an example we know that the low line, lazy turn in requires more lean to complete the turn than does the quick flick entry. We also know that tryng to quick flick the bike while trailing the brake ain't healthy for Humans...

 

In the end you have to look at what is as good as it gets both from a theoretical and a practical standpoint. There are many factors to take into account.

 

It is a beautifull thing to get (or see) a quick flick done clean and smooth. It is harder to do and it requires more skill at many things than the "smooth" alternatives. The one thing I know is that once you can master the quick flick, it's a no brainer to do it the other "smooth" way.

 

Look over the choices and then decide. Which one gives you the most freedom and control over the bike for the most situations. The answer to that would be the way to go. It's definitely the way we go at the school.

 

Keith

[Blue636]

Well, my experience at the school speaks for itself as I find myself doing nearly everything I learned when I'm out in the canyons. It makes a lot more sense now and I've gotta say that it's helped my confidence level drastically. The quick turn helps get the bike over where I need it to be, especially in decreasing radius corners. The slow and smooth line and turn makes me run wide on those same corners.

 

The lessons were very well done and they're practical.