Counter Steer Question

[Gwalker99]

hi,,,do you counter steer just to get the bike leaned over then tilt the bars back.. or are you actually countersteering throughout the whole turn.. thanks

[Cobie Fair]

There is a lot of data on this on a few forums, but the very short answer is, over parking lot speeds of only a few miles an hour, if the direction of the bike needs to be changed, countersteering is how it is done. There is a lot more information on steering in TWIST OF THE WRIST 2, any chance you have that to refer to?

 

best,

Cobie

[Gwalker99]

yes.. I have bought the book.. I guess my question is... is countersteering just to get your lean angle done fast and effective then you flip the bars striaght when you are leaning enough for the corner.. or are you countersteering throughout the whole turn... I am unclear on that.. so is countersteering done throughout the whole corner or just to get desired lean angle

[fastfreddie]

i always thought the bike was c/s-ed throughout the turn but, in numerous photos of my riding, i noticed the front certainly appeared to be pointing into the turn. there's reference to this in the following thread... http://www.superbikeschool.com/bbs/index.p...act=ST&f=2&t=52

[Sentinal]

I just read in TOTW yesterday that counter steering is used to get your bike over. Once your there, again according to the book, there is no need to apply any pressure to the bars.

 

I'll be starting TOTW2 today, so maybe there will be an update.

 

~Sentinal

[Goods]

I believe it depends on what you are doing with your speed through out the range of the curve. I almost always c/s into a turn. It is easier and more efficient for me. Now if I am trying to accelerate through out the curve and exit at a higher speed than what I entered I will c/s through out the curve, increasing my lean angle as I go, to allow the bike to handle the increase in speed while maintaining my line. If however my speed has to decrease or remain constant in the curve due to traffic than I only c/s to get into the curve, but not to hold my lean angle.

I hope this makes sense and helps. I also hope that if I am doing this completely wrong that some one will set me straight, but it seems to work for me.

 

later,

Goods

[adifferentname]

I guess my question is... is countersteering just to get your lean angle done fast and effective then you flip the bars striaght when you are leaning enough for the corner.. or are you countersteering throughout the whole turn...

 

I don't think you need to flip the bars straight after having countersteered into a corner, it seems the bars will straighten out by themselves once the countersteering pressure is let off.

[RobZA]

Now if I am trying to accelerate through out the curve and exit at a higher speed than what I entered I will c/s through out the curve, increasing my lean angle as I go, to allow the bike to handle the increase in speed while maintaining my line. 

Hey Goods

 

My understanding from the TOTW books and personal experience is that as you increase lean angle you reduce the amount of acceleration force the rear tyre can deal with before spinning, so you need to be rolling the bike upright as you gas it, not lower.

Also, using throttle rule 1, you should always be trying to exit faster than you entered the turn. Solution, turn in slower (ie fewer MPH) and steer faster (ie quick flick) and trade lean for gas after the apex.

 

To answer the original question, steering input changes lean angle. Once you are leaned, the bike turns on its own because of the shape of the tyre. If you have turned in correctly and are following the "one steering change per corner" rule, then you will only steer again at the exit. Mid corner, make sure you keep your arms loose and let the front find its own equilibrium. I think fastfreddie is right in that it is actually pointing slightly inward, but it doesn't really matter, just relax and leave it alone until you need to change something.

[Goods]

Robza,

 

Yes. Sounds like I need to go back and review. I do however increase the lean angle along with the throttle. I don't slam the throttle hard enough to break traction. Sounds like I have probably fallen into some bad habits. I guess that can happen when you don't get to ride but a few months out of the year.

 

Thanks,

 

Goods

[Balistic]

Hi guy's

I will always try to enter a corner at a speed I can maintain throughout the turn. I don't try to accelerate just get the gas on and not let the bike slow.

It is the area just before the rear slides and just after the front has griped. The sweet spot.

Will

[Kevin Kane]

Balistic,

You write: "enter a corner at a speed I can maintain throughout the turn. I don't try to accelerate just get the gas on and not let the bike slow". Would that be true for a long sweeper like the Carousel @ Watkins Glen?

 

Kevin

[Balistic]

Balistic,

You write: "enter a corner at a speed I can maintain throughout the turn. I don't try to accelerate just get the gas on and not let the bike slow". Would that be true for a long sweeper like the Carousel @ Watkins Glen?

 

Kevin

NO. That was an explanation of a general plan, not a specific turn. In that turn because it decreases looses banking and elevation at the end you can enter faster than you can go through. I will get the throttle on at first but then stall on it and let the bike slow as I go down the elevation. Then close to the bottom I will start to roll it on.

Will

[Balistic]

hi,,,do you counter steer just to get the bike leaned over then tilt the bars back.. or are you actually countersteering throughout the whole turn.. thanks

I think what you are asking is do you need to steer the bike through the turn, NO. The trail will point the front wheel the direction it needs to go after you release the steering input. If there is something going on with the bike it is possible you will need to keep pressure on the bars, but that is an indicator you need to find out what the problem is. Low front tire pressure is one of the most common causes.

Will

[Balistic]

 

To answer the original question, steering input changes lean angle. Once you are leaned, the bike turns on its own because of the shape of the tyre. If you have turned in correctly and are following the "one steering change per corner" rule, then you will only steer again at the exit. Mid corner, make sure you keep your arms loose and let the front find its own equilibrium. I think fastfreddie is right in that it is actually pointing slightly inward, but it doesn't really matter, just relax and leave it alone until you need to change something.

The thing that steers the bike trail. The shape of the tire can and does have an effect on how steering feels but not weather or not it steers. If you had a square tire the bike would still steer, as well one that was a triangle would steer. They would feel dramatically different but that is the rider and we are talking about the bike here.

Will

[hobot]

Boy oh boy pilot GWalker did you ever ask a loaded question.

I think you got your best answer above about the use of

C/s to get it leaning and thereby turning and just leave it

where it feels easy to hold as long as you like your speed,

traction and line. BUT depending on that big bad black

thing's traction state, the bank/grade of the track and for sure

the wind you may have to diddle the front to the next steady

state of ease. What is so neat/fascinationg/disconerting/gleeful

to me is that bikes go thru transitions of handling/steering.

 

First handling state is "straight steering" when the rear tire is

mostly vertical, 7-9 mph in parking lot example [or in fast

transitions at almost the ton durring the phase rear is passing thru

near vertical in violent direction changes]

 

Next phase is when rear steering begins to rule by its leaning action,

about 10 mph to over sound barrier, as long as rear stays planted and

is not spining much nor skipping out much... the front tire must then

swivel to match the rear's commands, as when body steering hands off

OR the bars can be brought into play, to help the rear rule the roost,

by inducing more lean, called [a misnomer to me] "countersteering".

 

Speeds above 65-75 hinder body steering alone, as wheel gryo forces

become significant enough to resist the free swing of the forks, to match

em to the rear's lean. Same thing with trying to body steer

with ANY steering damper involved/interferring, as terrors or physics

will stop that foolishness. Gryo forces do not effect handling or

line in any detectable maner but does increase the force needed

to change front wheel aiming and the ease to flick the bike as

speed increases. It just makes you work harder.

 

That's about all there is to it if you stay below 110% tire use.

But if you seek the looseness Master Code speaks of riding vintage

tires but on new compounds OR find your self on slick stuff OR put

enough power down the front is light or even lifting OR in states the

bike is saved from a lowside by a jerk up into highside posture,

THEN you will pass thru phases of C/s vs S/s and back again.

Its similar to turning into the direction of a slide on a car.

Durring this flit thru the C/s v S/s transition [which really means

leaned vs vertical rear tire states] there is an instant where

you should actually be leting bars go so the forks can jib over

on their own in a timely just the right amount, way faster

than a pilot can perform reliablely. You do have to kinda catch it

though or over in a highside ya go.

 

Futher featutes to explore once into the speed and loads

range tires feel greasey:

A goodly spining rear tire will weather vane by gravity downhill.

An off slope track especially wet/sandy, rear may want to walk off

beside you towards hellward side. If you got room and want to keep

the acceleration going you just S/s abit or ALOT! so rear

stays more vertical and its thrust still aims at your line even as

bike drifts and looks cockeye'd. Looking down on a rider as his

rear hydroplanes out as he leans to turn, he can back off or he can

S/s towards the rear's slide and ride on it grining big time.

 

Centrifugal tangent force can be used to get a spining rear pointed

where you want it too but must be planned for and broken loose

abit before the apex by great help of bar C/s to lean it over far

and then great gobs of guick S/s as you hit apex and let rear

hook up for the leap out. Sorta flat tracker style but

way sharper jerky'r guicker over with gone. Rear suspension

must be full loaded going into this so you can control the

angle of rear the instant it regrips. If theres a new turn right

then let it highide right on over and Volia next instant

bike has transitioned again so that 1st S/s becomes C/s

and you didn't even move the bars. Wonderfully weird.

 

Increasing throttle in turns likes more C/s input to hold a radius

trailing throttle in turns prefers less C/s to hold a line.

Turning going up hill, more throttle raises bike and requires

more C/s, when rounding a down hiller, more power lowers

bike therefore less C/s for same radius as the uphill example.

Wind blowing from inside corner lifts and raises bike lean

so more C/s to compensate right up to the point the

bike will lift off and skip sideways a foot or more which

can be caught if you just hold the same steady state C/s/lean

you had on lift off and let the forks occillate on touch down

while you try to hold her steady and not try to actively compensate

otherwise, just act like a damper. Not for racing but if caught

out in storm front in Mt's wind may win no matter what.

 

Funest deal is to make every corner act like a decreasing

radius off canter turn, harder and harder lean, C/s and power

till quick S/s to save it and flick the next way. Yummy to the tummy.

 

As to dampers, my own personal opinion now is the less the

better and to me mainly implies a bad set up or poor bike design.

I find gusty winds the most valuable use for them and on

rough roads that jerk the bars entering or in exiting turns.

Also there is a whole world of difference between a damper

that has a limited radius of action and the ones that restricts

the whole fork range. The faster you want to change

direction or make corrections the less desireable a damper

becomes up to the point of flat limiting bike and rider

performance and preventing otherwise possible saves. damhik.

 

Safe fast playing y'all.

hobot

[Balistic]

Well Hobot that post qualifies as rambling dribble in my book. The question was simple as should the answer have been. I have a pretty good understanding of how a bike works but I can't track with your explanation.

 

You talk about Body Steering as though it by itself turns the bike. All B/S does is change the CG and in so doing the bike reacts with C/S to stabilize, it's no more complicated than that.

 

As for dampers, The damper is there to quell the rider's inputs into the steering. There aren't any sport bikes that will shake there heads without a riders hands on the bars. I have seen numerous riders ejected from shaking bikes and the bike stabilizes and continues on.

Will

[Rifleman]

Removed by author

[Keith Code]

Hobot definitely needs to stay away from Starbucks.

 

Pressure on the bars is what turns the bike and the more pressure the quicker it turns. We don't want to slam the bars, that tends to destabilize the bike.

 

The reason that rolling off in a corner tends to straighten the bike is the same reason the bike stands up when you apply front brake in a turn, the inside edge of the tire countersteers the wheel inward and raises the bike.

 

An additional point to bear in mind is that weight transfering to the front of the bike increases the trail. Under hard braking it increases it by nearly an inch. That is one of the reasons the bars feels sluggish and heavy under braking, the trail increases quite a lot.

 

Steering dampers are great for hard acceleration/bumpy surfaces when the riders is hanging onto the bars. It limits the side to side rotation of the forks by dampening the mini tankslappers that can happen in that circumstance.

 

And yes the front wheel does turn into the turn as the bike is being countersteered. COuntersteering changes the angle of the bike no matter where the front wheel is pointed, as long as there is traction.

 

Keith