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Timmer

What Electronics Are You Guys Running?

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That could definitely be the culprit.

 

Since you have the YEC, you might try different settings with the YCC-I to see if you notice a difference. I'd be interested to hear your results.

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Question for Timmer -

 

I see you work for Dyno Jet.

 

Maybe you can tell me why you (and others !) don't make boxes or have within the fuel mapping boxes, a way to better tune the ignition timing ?

 

I know why BMW doesn't have a good timing tuneup...the EPA. But the aftermarket needs to get onto this. At least for the 12 models. I don't know anything about the tuneup on the 10's or 11's, but the timing maps are horrible on the 12's. It's one reason the engines run so hot at lower/mid range rpms.

These bikes would be much more "interesting" in the low/mid range rpm's with better timing map values.

 

Thanks

 

Mike

 

P.s. - Just to introduce myself...(!) since this is my first post..! Yes, I wen't thru the Code course MANY moons ago. It was their first year with the Kawasaki, 600 Ninja.

I've had "many" Japanese bikes since the summer of 85, three Buells, and now giving the BMW a try. It's liable to be my last bike before I retire (that'll tell you about how old I am..!). So far...I'm liking it...save for the rod bolt problem (un touched as of now) and the ECM mapping.

 

 

 

 

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Hey Mike!

 

I'm not totally sure I understand your question...want to make sure I know exactly what your asking.

 

Do you mean "why don't more companies offer products that allow you to tune ignition timing?" OR do you mean "why is it so hard to tune ignition timing?"?

 

Also...which BMW are you referring to? S1000RR?

 

Best,

Timmer

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Timmer -

 

Yea..sorry, the 1000RR (a 2012 version)

 

Do you mean "why don't more companies offer products that allow you to tune ignition timing?" OR do you mean "why is it so hard to tune ignition timing?"?

Yes...to both !

 

Why don't "any"...companies, and why not ? What seems to be the apparent difficulty with doing this ?

 

My first Buell was a Harley engined XB12R. I figured I'd better learn to tune with a used bike and found this one close to home and cheap. I got a copy of an ECM management program (ECMSpy), and learned to use it. That way if I "F" something up...it don't kill an expensive engine in a new bike..!

I've been building and tuning automotive street and race engines for...well, a long time...so I'm more thAn comfortable playing with the fuel and ignition adjustments to make the engine run correctly.

Anyway, I got to where I felt comfortable with tuning the little XB12, my ultimate goal was getting the 1125 CR Buell. Two problems with the CR...it ran like real ###### and Harley/Buell couldn't do anything about it, (EPA). Sure, they tried, new map sets every few weeks, but most were still horrible. The bike wasn't even drivable in traffic.

Finally...someone came out with a program to be able to adjust the mapping at home. It took some work but I got the mapping real close...took both fuel AND ignition timing to "fix" the problems.

Power went up, milage got a little better, coolant heat went WAY down, firey red headers went away...!

 

Now to the big BMW. While the basic maping is MUCH better thAn the Buells were, it still a long way off in making the engine what it really could be. This includes so low a timing values that much anything under about 4800rpm....there just isn't enough timing to make reasonable power, a cooler running engine, with what would also be a benifit of this is slightly better fuel economy.

 

A few guys make the add-on fuel boxes...what's the problem with making ign. timing boxes for this engine/ECM ?

 

Thanks

 

Mike

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Hey Mike,

 

Now I'm following you. Those are excellent questions.

 

Why don't more companies offer products to tune ignition timing?

First off...Dynojet is currently working toward making an Ignition Module for the S1000RR, so look for that in the next few months. FYI...One of the things that slows our development down is when we can't find the connectors we need to make our wiring harness. After doing this a while we have a pretty good library of connectors, but BMW decided to use a new one which we have had trouble sourcing. It's moving along now though.

 

1. The main reason why other companies don't offer more ignition timing products....it's HARD! Haha. Seriously though, it takes a lot of time, money, and development to make ignition products when compared to fuel controllers. A PIGGYBACK fuel injection box(Power Commander, Bazzaz, etc.) is relatively easy. All we have to do there is take in a fuel injector pulse and make it bigger or smaller to add or subtract fuel. Replicating the exact timing of a fuel injector pulse is not terribly critical. Doing PIGGYBACK ignition is more complicated. We have to take in the pulse, figure out exactly when it happened, and then replicate the exact size, and also place it correctly in TIME to within microseconds. The circuitry that is needed to do this is also more complex. It's pretty tricky. The other way of controlling ignition is to ignore the inputs from the ECU(non-piggyback). This takes even more time to develop because you have to figure out the exact ignition curve for EVERY running condition of the bike and program it into the box. Like I said, a company could spend a lot of time and money doing this.

 

2. The other reason is that on many stock bikes the ignition timing is already pretty good, so the gains that you get for most bikes are not as profound as the gains you get by getting the fueling right. The majority of our customers will buy common aftermarket parts(exhaust/air filter) that effectively change the air flow through the motor. This produces a DIRECT need to change the fueling to make the motor run well after these parts are installed. Adding these types of parts usually does not require a change to the ignition timing.

The only time you really need to change the ignition timing is if the stock ECU's timing is poor(like you mentioned), if you install aftermarket parts that change the compression and/or heat of the incoming air/fuel charge, or if you are using a lower octane fuel. On the big V-twins we usually see pretty good gains when we advance the ignition timing a bit, but most of the sportbikes run pretty aggressive ignition timing from the factory.

 

Why is it so hard to tune ignition timing?

Probably the biggest reason here is there is no straight forward process to do it! There is no sensor that quantifies the amount of ignition timing you are running.

 

Knock sensors will tell you if you are running too much under certain conditions, but you can't always get an engine to knock. For example, up here in Montana you can advance the ignition timing a bunch without getting an engine to knock. You can advance it so much that it will show a decrease in torque because the early combustion is counteracting the upward movement of the piston, but it can do this without knocking.

 

Likewise, how do you measure "not enough"? The only method I have heard of is the "change and check" method. You do a dyno run, make a change to the ignition timing, and then do another dyno run to see if it made an improvement. This method works pretty good, but takes a lot of time/dynoruns to figure out.

 

This topic is kind of complicated, but I hope that starts to clear it up for you a little bit. Let me know if you have more questions about it.

 

Best,

Timmer

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Timmer -

 

Thanks for the response and the info.

 

Sounds good to hear that the Power Commander guys are/will be working on a way to alter the ign. timing. I called another company a while back, they said that they may be working on one, but it will take a while.

 

In tuning car engines for so many years, and then getting into the Buell tuneup (both the XB and the 1125 engines), it's pretty much the same animal, engines make good power, stay comparitivly cool and return resonable gas milage when the ign. timing is more to the engines liking.

 

AND...as you say, how much, where and when....it's not really in a book, there are so many variables. You either need a lot of first hand experience and or a dyno to make the engine happy.

 

I found something kinda weird in my Harley powered (XB12S) Buell...it liked a LOT of advance. I wear ear plugs while driving/riding. I tuned the engines timing to the best seat of the pants power AND fuel milage. The fan also ran less.

Anyway, one day I forgot my ear plugs (bikes are my daily transportation, 85 miles a day). I noticed the "noise" comming from the engine.... While "cruising"/light throttle, the engine was in light detionation...!

I backed of the timing in a couple of spots, added, subtracted to get rid of the detionation, but try to keep the power.

Everything fell off...the power, the gas milage...! So now...I'm averaging about 48 to 50 mpg, vs. 51/52 with "too" much timing..!? I don't really understand that one..but.

My 1125CR is good. It sorta talks to me. I know pretty close where the fuel and timing want to be. It took me a while to learn its likes and dislikes, but it's was running pretty well...till while adjusting the valves...I noticed the front exh. cam was starting to go flat, so now it sits till I get some free time..! Too many projects.

 

Thanks again

 

Mike

 

P.s. - I have a bore scope...I checked, the pistons are fine in the XB..!

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Timmer -

 

Power Commander request...if I may...

With the use of the two different programs I've used to tune the Buells, they have one thing in common, you can actually see the timing values at, rpm vs. throttle opening.

 

While I know there is many ways of doing this, if I may throw out a wish list..?

It's a short one....make a graphaical interface to actually see what you are doing and where it's being done. E.g., as noted above, rpm vs. throttle opening or any other location you desire, just make a computer screen graph that can be understood, to alter the timing by.

 

This would be much easier for both the dyno operator/tuner...and the "do it your-selfer" like myself. Easy to read, easy to understand where and by how much the values are changing.

 

Thanks for listening

 

Mike

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Hey Mike,

 

Those are good points for sure. Datalogging is very important to using and understanding our products. That said...we actually already have some of the capability you are talking about.

 

1. The Control Center software for both Power Commander IIIUSB and Power Commander 5 have live gauges that show throttle position, RPM, and ignition change, along with a bunch of other channels. You can also see a "cell tracer" that shows your current position in the map table. You can see things happen live, but the softwares currently doesn't do any datalogging.

 

2. The PCIIIUSB channels can also be logged with our dyno software(WinPEP7) alongside power, torque, and any other channels being logged with the dyno. You can view all this data in the dyno graph. We currently don't have this same ability with PC5, but we are working on it.

 

3. We also have datalogging capability with our LCDs, which we offer for both PCIIIUSB and PC5. You can log all the channels on the Power Commander, download the logged file to your computer, and view the data in Excel. You can create a graph of this data in Excel pretty easily. On the PC5s, you can also log the data from our Autotune kits, so that you can see air/fuel ratio alongside all the Power Commander channels.

 

We are currently working on a bunch of new stuff, and one of the main goals is to make datalogging capability and experience better than it is now. We're hopeful that we can begin to release some of the new stuff very soon.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Best,

Timmer

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Sounds very interesting AND much welcomed.

Is there a timeframe as to when this timing (I'll need the fuel too !) stuff can be expected to hit the retail shops from Power Commander...?

 

It's reassuring that one of these days (soon ?), I can be less worried about how badly my BMW is tuned..and all the things that go with it ! And then be glad, about how well...my 1000RR runs...and the things that go with that...!

 

Thanks again

 

Mike

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The Power Commander 5 for the S1000RR is already released. The part number is 12-012.

 

I can't give a concrete date of when the Ignition Module will be released, but if I had to guess, I would say within the next month or two.

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My 1977 KZ650 runs a homemade rectifier, the only electronics on the whole machine. Does that count :unsure:

 

 

 

 

:lol:

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My 1977 KZ650 runs a homemade rectifier, the only electronics on the whole machine. Does that count :unsure:

 

 

 

 

:lol:

So it's a diesel?

 

 

:P

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I installed a Nemesis TCS unit on my GSXR 1000 but itkept resetting with a CAN bus error. I had my PCV disconnected and the tractioncontrol is now working properly. Has anyone else had this issue? Is there a fix? The Nemesis guys think it is interfering with the throttle position information, but haven't worked with a PCV before.

 

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how do you find the TCS Nema? Just aqcuired one of these pieces of kit for my race bike.

 

 

 

Bullet

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Hi Bullet. It is great, I have two sets of wheels and tyres, and it takes about 2 minutes to change the map to match the different profiles. Was at Phillip Island last week doing level 3 and it made a huge difference to tyre wear compared to the previous levels. I had it set on 6 when I started but ended up on 2 by the end of the day. On 2 I couldn't even feel it working but it the readout was going crazy. Do you have a pcv on your bike? Would be interested to see if you can get it to work with the Nemesis.

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Hi mate,

Thanks for the update, sounds very promising indeed.

I race a Ducati, it has about 195bhp, (which has had quite a bit of engine tuning work and racing gearbox, suspension, etc). We don't run a PCV on her, she has the Ducati racing ECU reflashed, as this allows us a lot more options (though of course it's more complicated and expensive route than a PCV). I do understand, (not having had mine fitted yet), it will cause some issues with dash lights (due to control of coils), but we can resolve that if I also get the nemesis ecu (which is available for Ducatis).

We're going to have her updated and installed over the winter, and I will update you on what I find, (which incidentally), we'll be endurance racing on Dunlop slicks and wets (not sure what you're using).

Thanks for the note,

Bullet

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Hi Bullet

 

 

Mine is my everyday ride. I run Pirelli Supercorsa SP on the Marchesini's and Dunlop NTEC sportsmart on the standard rims. 183 rwhp and 189kg wet measured.

 

 

Cheers Hema

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I have a BMW S1000RR equiped with Leovinci full system, PCV/Autotune(gear depended), AIM EVO4 for datalogging and have some questions about it.

The O2 sensor has no more than 2000km and I run the test and its within specs.I do not have leaks and blocked the pair valves so no fresh air goes in.In 2nd gear I get really odd numbers.If I constantly accept them then I have hesitation in the 3K-5K area.Below is the map that I got.Something is not right.You cannot have -12 and 250rpms later +36.The 2nd gear is critical for exiting slow corners in the track and I need a really good map.I finally copy/paste a map from the Dynojet library for 2nd gear and I choose not to map it.The other gears have good smooth maps.

Also I would like to know if the quickshifter spoils the mesurments when it engages the gears.As I have seen in telemetry the AFR becomes lean when changing gears with shifters (ex 17:1) for milliseconds.Unfortunately I do not have the LCU-one (AFR mesurment tool of AIM datalogging) to verify on my bike.

Thanks for your time Timmer...

post-3845-0-76238400-1347625866_thumb.jpg

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Hey DrIoannis,

 

Hmm...that map does look a little strange. There's definitely something weird going on.

 

Here are a few things that come to my mind to check:

 

1. Did you unplug the stock O2 sensors? If you didn't then you will have the ECU's Autotune and Power Commander's Autotune fighting each other.

2. Do you have an error codes on the Power Commander? You can check this in the Power Commander software.

3. Have you updated to the latest firmware? You can find this on the Power Commander website.

 

Those are the things off the top of my head...

 

In answer to your other question about the quickshifter...

Autotune only works within a window of AFRs that is specified in the Power Commander. We did this so that Autotune would not run during cases like quickshifting when the AFR goes very lean or also when the O2 sensor goes bad and reads very rich or very lean.

 

Hope that helps,

Timmer

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Hey DrIoannis,

 

Hmm...that map does look a little strange. There's definitely something weird going on.

 

Here are a few things that come to my mind to check:

 

1. Did you unplug the stock O2 sensors? If you didn't then you will have the ECU's Autotune and Power Commander's Autotune fighting each other.

2. Do you have an error codes on the Power Commander? You can check this in the Power Commander software.

3. Have you updated to the latest firmware? You can find this on the Power Commander website.

 

Those are the things off the top of my head...

 

In answer to your other question about the quickshifter...

Autotune only works within a window of AFRs that is specified in the Power Commander. We did this so that Autotune would not run during cases like quickshifting when the AFR goes very lean or also when the O2 sensor goes bad and reads very rich or very lean.

 

Hope that helps,

Timmer

 

1)Yes I unplugged the OEM O2 sensors

2)When I connect it to my PC no error codes appear

3)Yes I made an upgrade couple of months ago.

 

The weird thing is that appears in 2nd gear and maybe just a little bit in 1st.The other gears are very good.

Also would like to know the refresh rate of the Autotune,if there is any (Hz?).

Thanks for the fast response.

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Hmm...that's really weird.

 

You might try this...

Using the Power Commander Software, advance your Target AFR table to be gear dependant. In the software, go to Map Tools>Advance/Demote Map. Then click the box next to "Target AFR tables" and select "Gear Advanced". This should give a Target AFR table for each gear. Put in the same Target AFR values you were using before in gears 3-6, but zero out the Target AFR table for 1st and 2nd gear. This will make it so that Autotune is only running in gears 3-6.

 

Once you come up with a pretty good map for 3rd gear, copy the fuel change values into your 1st and 2nd gear table.

 

FYI...On most modern sportbikes there is typically no need to tune each gear independantly. There are some guys on the forums that claim it makes a difference, although I have never personally seen it make a noticeable difference on the bikes I have tuned. That said, I have not tuned a BMWS1000RR before, so it may be different.

 

Hope that helps. Let me know if I can answer any other questions you have.

 

Best,

Timmer

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To you guys talking about the Nemesis TC system....Unfortunately I am not familiar with that system. In my opinion, it can get a little hairy when you start combining aftermarket electronics that are all trying to control the same engine.

 

Off the top of my head I can't see how the Nemesis system would affect the Power Commander(or vice versa). I'll try to do some digging online to see if I can find some info on the Nemesis system and whether it would conflict with the Power Commander.

 

Best,

Timmer

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Hmm...that's really weird.

 

You might try this...

Using the Power Commander Software, advance your Target AFR table to be gear dependant. In the software, go to Map Tools>Advance/Demote Map. Then click the box next to "Target AFR tables" and select "Gear Advanced". This should give a Target AFR table for each gear. Put in the same Target AFR values you were using before in gears 3-6, but zero out the Target AFR table for 1st and 2nd gear. This will make it so that Autotune is only running in gears 3-6.

 

Once you come up with a pretty good map for 3rd gear, copy the fuel change values into your 1st and 2nd gear table.

 

FYI...On most modern sportbikes there is typically no need to tune each gear independantly. There are some guys on the forums that claim it makes a difference, although I have never personally seen it make a noticeable difference on the bikes I have tuned. That said, I have not tuned a BMWS1000RR before, so it may be different.

 

Hope that helps. Let me know if I can answer any other questions you have.

 

Best,

Timmer

I really appreciated your help.Thanks

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Right, so I have a baby ninja aka ninjette aka 2011 ninja 250r FI. Currently running a full exhaust with airbox deleted and replaced with a k&n 0990 pod filter. To compensate for the a/f ratio I installed a PCV wi full yoshimura map. I have an auto tune system on the way, which I'll install ASAP. Is there any chance the auto tune will show me my power figures?

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