faffi Posted July 28, 2017 Report Share Posted July 28, 2017 "They are crazy" http://www.crash.net/motogp/interview/283337/1/exclusive-lorenzo-bortolozzo-brembo-interview.html 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybird180 Posted July 29, 2017 Report Share Posted July 29, 2017 Quote Lorenzo Bortolozzo Yeah [but] maybe with different pressure. If we compare the braking time to the acceleration time, the pressure is different. But it's correct. For me it's unbelievable! But I'm a street rider, not a MotoGP rider. And I'm old! I think the MotoGP riders are completely crazy but very clever. If there is some change the MotoGP rider needs just one test to adapt to the riding style or the braking style to the change. They are very clever. Crash.net: Is using the back brake this much now a common thing? Lorenzo Bortolozzo I think now this is mandatory. If you want to do a good job, you have to use the rear brake a lot. I repeat, not just during the braking time, but also during the acceleration time. Crash.net: Is this because of the switch to the standard electronics ECU? Are the anti-wheelie systems now less effective than what the top factories were using in 2015 and before? Lorenzo Bortolozzo No, because also in the past many riders use the rear brake. I think now, with the power of the bike, it's very high. In order to keep the line at the exit of the turn, it's mandatory to use the rear brake. What did he say??? Okay I can understand using the rear brake to affect the line but why during acceleration? (puzzled look on my face and I'm going to be disturbed and perplexed) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khp Posted July 31, 2017 Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 On 29/7/2017 at 4:05 AM, Jaybird180 said: What did he say??? Okay I can understand using the rear brake to affect the line but why during acceleration? (puzzled look on my face and I'm going to be disturbed and perplexed) The riders use the rear brake to limit the wheelieing. Having 270bhp 'on tap' does that to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted July 31, 2017 Author Report Share Posted July 31, 2017 Doing so will also overwhelm most humans - there's just too many things going on at once. I cannot even begin to contemplate what it would take to keep a bike in line when accelerating with 270 hp on tap while leaned way over and trying to modulate the power with exact use of the rear brake at the same time. Mind-boggling. Which is why I would be proud to get within 30 seconds of a gp-rider around a track. Very proud. Because I doubt I would be able to. Especially not with a gp bike - I'd most likely be faster on a CBR600 or something like that. But still very slow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybird180 Posted August 1, 2017 Report Share Posted August 1, 2017 17 hours ago, khp said: The riders use the rear brake to limit the wheelieing. Having 270bhp 'on tap' does that to you. Wheelie control doesn't cover the full reason. The bike has wheelie control and at that level, I'd depend on the electronics; have you ever seen those shots of their right wrist on corner exit? Those guys just pin it and depend on the electronics. There are many articles discussing the potential for riders to lose skills because of automation, same as there are many discussions of the similar in aviation. I'd also not worry about using brake for wheelie control simply because I'd be too much of a chicken to pin it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted August 1, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 1, 2017 They will not lose skill with electronics, but they can now perfect it because the bike will be more predictable and easier to control. But that also means that they must ride consistently closer to the ragged edge to be competitive. If we go way back, the rider would have to shift gears with a hand operated lever, use his foot for clutching, had no front brake and the throttle was similar to a choke control and would not return when the rider let go and had to be manually adjusted both ways. In addition, the oil pump had to be manually operated by hand, and the same with the ignition timing, meaning the rider had to search for optimum performance without causing pinging. Suspension was at best some girder-like thing up front with friction damper and a sprung seat in the back. What we see today is just a natural progression that began with automatic oil pumps, automatic timing advancers, foot operated gears and hand operated clutches, front brakes, hydraulic suspension at both ends and continued to this day where we see lots of further aids to make the life of the rider easier so he can focus more on the road and his speed than keeping the bike rolling. That I'm no fan of throttle by wire and traction control and whatnot is just a sign I am outdated, intimidated by the complexity and also frustrated that my romantic view of heros trying to tame wild beasts is being broken. However, I am positive that you could give any bike ever raced and hand it to Marquez or Stoner and they would be able to hustle that thing faster around a track than any other human in history. The level of the current crop of riders is higher than ever before. Would Hailwood, had he been young today, still been at the front? No doubt. The best will always rise to the top. But he would have had to work a lot harder for it than back in the 60s. And so say he who really doesn't have a clue about what's he's rambling about Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybird180 Posted August 1, 2017 Report Share Posted August 1, 2017 If bikes become impossible to highside, if traction control continues to improve the way it has been going, average rider Joe Schmoe will be a superstar, never knowing anything else. Now put Joe on a "Vintage" bike like my 2006 CBR1000RR (without those things) and he will taste asphalt in the worse way. But I digress... Lets talk about the interview. I want to understand this ability to change exit line with the brake. How is that possible? It makes no sense to me to be on the gas and brake simultaneously, yet affect the bike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted August 1, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 1, 2017 Not sure if these links are helpful to you or not https://www.asphaltandrubber.com/lifestyle/use-your-rear-brake-motorcycle/ http://www.sportrider.com/riding-skills-series-using-rear-brake#page-2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybird180 Posted August 1, 2017 Report Share Posted August 1, 2017 Unfortunately both of them only graze the use of rear brake at corner exit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotfoot Posted August 1, 2017 Report Share Posted August 1, 2017 6 hours ago, Jaybird180 said: If bikes become impossible to highside, if traction control continues to improve the way it has been going, average rider Joe Schmoe will be a superstar, never knowing anything else. That is a pretty bold statement. I disagree. There still needs to be a willingness to go fast, a level of tolerance for speed and G forces, and the visual and processing skills required to be located on the track and in control of the machine, not to mention knowing where to point it. IMO making the bike easier to ride helps free up attention and reduce crashes but won't make an average rider a superstar. Just look at today's bikes, you can buy a crazy high horsepower bike right off a showroom floor that has clutchless shifting and traction control and even electronic suspension, but move an average rider from an aged 600cc bike to one of those and see how much faster the rider really goes. Or just watch a superstar kid on a 1990 RS125 making mincemeat of a bunch of adults on 200hp liter bikes with all the electronic assists, you can see that often enough at a typical track day or race practice. I do agree that riders who learn on bikes that do all those cool things would struggle on an older bike without the electronic assists - just like many teenagers today wouldn't know how to operate a manual transmission car - but that could be overcome with some training and practice, I think the best riders would still rise to the top in either situation, I don't think the bike makes the rider. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted August 1, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 1, 2017 Eggsaggly! And I suspect it is harder to be at the front today than it was 40 years ago, when you could compensate for poor skills with big brass cojones. Take a look at Redding, who was instantly battling for the win riding a 500GP two-stroke for the first time. "I got a good start to lead through Eau Rouge, but this was my first time on the track on two wheels, on a bike I only slung a leg over ten minutes beforehand," revealed Redding. "The rest of the guys rode yesterday, so they had a bit of an advantage in the opening laps, but it didn't take me long to get a feel for the bike and to figure out the lines. "I managed to push my way back up into second and then had a great battle with Steve Plater over the last few laps. In the end I couldn't quite find a way past him before the chequered flag, but second place isn't too bad for my first outing on a 500GP bike!" http://www.crash.net/motogp/news/193303/1/redding-rides-exkevin-schwantz-500cc-suzuki.html 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybird180 Posted August 1, 2017 Report Share Posted August 1, 2017 Is it easier to ride a bike fast with electronic aids? Is it safer? Does the potential exist for an electronic assist bike to save the rider from his/her own mistakes? I think these are questions with bold "yes" answers. That's the core point that I was making. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted August 2, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 2, 2017 I agree with that, but this also makes it harder for a rider to make a difference, hence the rider must push closer to the edge of disaster. It was not possible to ride a 500GP bike to its limits every corner of a race because the bike wasn't predictable enough. But if a rider had a lucky day combined with enough bravery, he could win even if not the best rider. Today, you must be inch perfect and if you make a mistake you cannot just close your eyes and open the throttle to make up that time again - provided you didn't get tossed off in the process. Modern racing demand new qualites, but is in no way less challenging if the goal is to win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybird180 Posted August 2, 2017 Report Share Posted August 2, 2017 4 hours ago, faffi said: I agree with that, but this also makes it harder for a rider to make a difference, hence the rider must push closer to the edge of disaster. It was not possible to ride a 500GP bike to its limits every corner of a race because the bike wasn't predictable enough. But if a rider had a lucky day combined with enough bravery, he could win even if not the best rider. Today, you must be inch perfect and if you make a mistake you cannot just close your eyes and open the throttle to make up that time again - provided you didn't get tossed off in the process. Modern racing demand new qualites, but is in no way less challenging if the goal is to win. I think racing isn't as much a mysterious black art anymore. While anyone with sufficient nickels can get started, attrition and law of averages thins the field of contenders. Because there are so many who are "good" and equipment is more readily available, the playing field is more level than days of yore- a competitive advantage is required. I recall years ago my wife saying that watching racing was boring, all they do is wait for the other guy to make a mistake (paraphrasing). I understand now that some tracks or sections thereof are difficult passing zones, coupled with (IIRC) everyone was on a Ducati- you didn't have a handling or power difference to exploit. Inches missed become feet ahead in racing nowadays. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted August 3, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 3, 2017 This week the annual national shooting contest is taking place, and I see an analogy here towards modern racing bikes. I do not shoot, nor am I particularly interested in guns, but I noticed that two shooters had 249 points from a possible 250 during the pre-qualifications, while 15 shooters in total will go the the final tomorrow, all with 246 points or more. Throughout history, starting in 1893, nobody in Norway have managed a perfect 250 score during the qualifications - the woman who leads missed by just 2 mm on a 15 cm large "10". They shoot from 300 meters, on time, kneeling, standing and laying flat. While the task is simple enough (aim and pull the trigger) - like riding a motorcycle with lots of rider aids - but the execution is very difficult if you want to win, and the tiniest miss have big consequences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybird180 Posted August 3, 2017 Report Share Posted August 3, 2017 7 hours ago, faffi said: This week the annual national shooting contest is taking place, and I see an analogy here towards modern racing bikes. I do not shoot, nor am I particularly interested in guns, but I noticed that two shooters had 249 points from a possible 250 during the pre-qualifications, while 15 shooters in total will go the the final tomorrow, all with 246 points or more. Throughout history, starting in 1893, nobody in Norway have managed a perfect 250 score during the qualifications - the woman who leads missed by just 2 mm on a 15 cm large "10". They shoot from 300 meters, on time, kneeling, standing and laying flat. While the task is simple enough (aim and pull the trigger) - like riding a motorcycle with lots of rider aids - but the execution is very difficult if you want to win, and the tiniest miss have big consequences. Interesting analogy and it makes me wonder how technology has improved that area as well. I haven't squeezed a trigger in many years. I enjoyed it as a personal challenge. I trained in the profession as a U.S. Marine. One of the things that we were told in Recruit Training is that during bad weather, scores tend to dampen. I took that to heart and wanted to do the opposite; nature obliged my request as I seemed to always be at the range and shooting for score (a component of career progression) during cold and/or wet. Save my score from Recruit Training (Sharpshooter), I've always qualified and added an increasing sequential number to my Expert badge. In my day, just a short 14 years ago we fired weapons with only open sights, the old fashioned way. I saw a video of more recent Marine Recruits using optical sights on their weapons. I was horrified. What had my beloved Corps done??!?!?! Well, I guess that's the way of progress. The thought had occurred to me that it's possible that the technology has a positive effect on accuracy and battlefield engagement outcomes. I don't have the data to support that, but I'm sure there was an Army surplus somewhere and the Marine Corps picked them up to try and make some good use of them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted August 4, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 4, 2017 This is the sort of weapon they use in the national competition Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybird180 Posted August 4, 2017 Report Share Posted August 4, 2017 Bolt action, Open sights. Frankly, I don't see why there would be a need for a scope at 300 meters, but that's just me; it's just one more thing that can fail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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