stuman
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Posts posted by stuman
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Many racers do not blip when they down shift, they release the clutch slowly instead.
Erm... what? Are you talking about dirt bikes and supermoto perhaps?
The VAST majority of road racers blip. And ALL the riding/racing coaches at EVERY road racing school I have ever attended or worked for, including CSS, teach it as the proper standard technique. Very few road racers I know of are not able to master it or choose to not blip.
In any case, I see what you mean now about pulling in the clutch and letting the rev's drop down low rather than hitting the rev limiter to get the same effect of back torquing the wheel when you release the clutch. Thanks for explaining that.
Of course, as Keith teaches and Cobie has already said and every road racer knows, not blipping and releasing the clutch between each shift is a good way to catch a false neutral and lose track of what gear you are in... or not in.
So, maybe supermoto guys do it differently?
No I'm speaking of backing it in on a roadracing motorcycle.
Maybe the majority of roadracers do blip when they down shift, but many do not.
There are schools that teach students to release the clutch slowly instead of blipping.
I assume some roadracers choose not to blip because they are comfortable with that technique and do not feel blipping would benifit them, not because they could not master blipping.
I don't recall Keith or Cobie mentioning that not blipping would cause a false neutral or make you forget what gear your in, but I'm getting kinda old so I forget things sometimes.
I do remember having a conversation with Keith on the subject, and I belive the main reason he recomends that riders should blip the throttle instead of releaseing the clutch slowly was because releasing the clutch slowly took too long and you have to put more attention on what your doing with your clutch hand.
I'm glad that you find using only the rear brake works well for you when backing it in.
Personlay I find I have more control using the clutch. I don't believe that this is some strange technique recently invented by supermoto riders.
Remember, riding is an ART, each rider has their own interpretation of what works best for them.
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Derek My comments were not directed at you, just coments about the topic in general.
It is a difficult question to answer as "the right thing to do" might vary from situation to situation.
Certinly if you are at full lean and the back comes around because you gave it too much gas, it would be a REAL BAD idea to keep rolling on.
If you can react and catch the slide early enoough the best thing to do woudl be to stop rolling on or even roll out a little. Picking the bike up into the slide is great but not to many people react that way.
However if the slide comes to quickly and goes too far before you can catch it, rolling off would be a real bad idea ... Weeeeeeeee
Sometimes your best option is to stay in it and hope that you can ride it out or lowside rather then highside.
As for pushing the limits of traction at full lean, well I suppose if your looking for those last 10ths of a second you might find something there. However, your band of traction is rather narrow when your dragging the pegs. I'd rather seach for the limits of traction after the apex once I start to stand the bike up a little
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One thing that I think should be said re: the original post.
The OP it talking about a slide that happens at FULL LEAN.
Just FYI it is probably not a real good idea to be pushing the limits of rear traction at full lean.
At full lean you are on a much finer edge and if the rear does slide it might come around faster then you would like. I found this out the hard way earlier this year.
At full lean you best catch the slide very early, or else... weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
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Ok dude, whatever you say. Everybody is backing it in and using thumb brakes these days.
Kio just about backed it right off the track in that last hairpin. Doesn't look like the fastest way around that corner to me.
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I believe backing it in was a side effect of braking hard not having the new slipper clutch and engine braking tech. Many racers do not blip when they down shift, they release the clutch slowly instead. When this is done the bike has a tendancy to back in. With the advent of new slipper clutches and anti-engine braking systems you don't see much backing it in anymore.
I ride a lot of supermoto and I use the technique in very tight hairpin corners only. It helps me go in real deep and still get the bike turned before the apex. I do it by letting the clutch out real slow so the bike doesn't hop, but backs in real smooth. When the clutch is all the way out the rear hooks up and I get back on the gas. I do not have a slipper clutch on my supermoto. I have ridden a SM with a slipper clutch and it was much nicer as you could bang two or three downshifts and just let the clutch go, it would still back in real smooth.
I can also back in my ZX10 although I only do it when I'm messing around. I don't use it as a tool when racing as I don't feel it has any advantage. Again, I do it using the clutch mostly with a little presure on the rear brake. All the riders I have spoken with about this (Including the guys that instruct on how to do this at the UK Supermoto School) do it using the clutch mostly.
When you use the clutch to back it in you have much more control. Your foot on the rear brake just does not have the same feel as your hand on the clutch. It is too easy to use too much brake or not enough with your foot. It is much easier to just apply a little rear brake, keep your foot presure consistant, and use your hand on the clutch to control the amount of slide.
You don't need to overspin the motor to do this either.
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Backing it in is done mostly with the clutch, not the rear brake. You do use the rear brake some, but releasing the clutch slowly (or quickly if you have a slipper) is how you control the rear slide.
Not too many racers use the technique anymore. It was the fad a few years ago, until people figured out that it was slower and they could avoid backing it in with better slipper clutches and anit--engine braking systems.
Guys like Haga and Yates used to back it in all over the place, now you don't even see them doing it. These days most guys don't do it intentionaly if at all, it is typlically just a side effect of braking hard.
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Fast.
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Can you answer 2 questions:
1-Can a 600 spin the rear
2-What does it feel like
1) Yes see bellow
2) I assume it is fun as hell.
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I don't think anyone other then the photographer is allowed to go near the track.
However, you can get some great photos of the last few corners from behind the pit wall and from the stands.
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Higher entry speed is where i am trying to go, how do you do it... go i faster,
1. do i need to change POT, may be earlier??
2. should I experiment with trail braking? not too comfortable with this one, dont have good feel for the front
3. Do I get more agressive on the gas once i finish my turning?
4. Do try a different line?
1) Probably not. I doubt I would change my turn point if I felt like I had a good line already. You may need to turn the bike faster though.
2) Trail braking may be aplicable in some corners, but as a rule it probably won't help you with your entry speed, probably make you slower goin in.
3) If you can that is always a good think for lap times. You should try to bring the rear tire right to the edge of traction as soon as you can comming off the corner, but you have to balance that with timming your drive correctly so you don't run wide.
4) Can't say, if you have good lines then you shouldn't need to change them...
I can recomend something that you can try durring practice that is the best thing I've ever found for improving your entry speed. Ride a session of two "No Brakes" and focus on trying to enter the corner faster without touching the brakes. Riding no brakes really gives you time before the corner to judge your entry speed and gives you a much better sense of how fast you are going in. If you can get good at riding no brakes I'm sure you will find your entry speeds improve. You will probably need to work on having the confedence to turn the bike quickly and you will have to be patien with this drill as it can be frustrating riding around no brakes, because you just can't go quite as fast. But give it a try and I'm sure you will find that your entry speed will improve.
Hope that helps....
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Yes, James and Stoney are running track days at Button Willow, Willow and Pahrump. Sorry but I just can't remember the name of their company or web site.
If your lookig to do track days in SoCal there are a ton of good organisations...
Track Dayz
Fastrack riders
Hyper Cycle
SoCal Track Days (pahrump)
are all great organisations.
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Ben,
I can be a part of your level 4 program, just talk to the off track coach and let them know that this is something that you are interested in.
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The older 636 is a great bike and if your looking to save a few bucks I'd say it would be a great choice for a track day bike.
Any tire will take about 2 laps to come up to full temp. Use tire warmers and you can be up to speed in 1/2 lap.
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This past weekend was the final round of the WSMC Streets series on The Streets of Willow Springs. I think it was probably my final event of the year as well. I don’t have any plans to race again in ’07. I’m not sure what my race plans are for next year.
As far as the race weekend goes it was pretty uneventful. As has been typical of The Streets Series attendance in my classes was pretty low with only a few riders in each race. I had a good time though and I felt like I was riding well. I won all three of my races this weekend and lowered my existing lap record in the Open SuperStock class.
I set some pretty lofty goals for my racing this year. I was able to attain most of them and came up just short on a couple. I should be satisfied with my results but I’m not. I always seem to focus on the goals that I missed.
I had a near perfect season on The Streets of Willow. I won every race I finished (I didn’t finish one race due to contact with another rider breaking my footpeg off). I won all three class championships, Open Superstock, Open Mod Prod and Open Superbike.
I set 5 lap records this year. I have the Open Superstock, Open Modified Production and Open Superbike lap records on The Streets riding my ZX10. I also set the 550 Superbike and Formula Twins Lightweight lap records on the Willow Springs Classic Course (Big Track) riding the Advanced Kawasaki Ninja 650. So I’m the fastest guy on a big bike at the little track and the fastest guy on a little bike at the big track.
I also finished 12th in the Toyota 200 this year. All in all a good year and I’m looking forward to some new challenges next year.
Of course none of this success would have been possible without the help I got from my friends and sponsors (California Superbike School, Michelin, Advanced Kawasaki, TrackDayz, LPUSA, KBC and AGV Sport).
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It's hard to say how much time those switchbacks would add. I've done 1:24s using them just messing around, I might be able to take a few second off that if I was racing. I'd say anything under a 1:30 would be a pretty quick time.
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I just got done watching the sepang Moto GP race and noticed something interesting. Many of the front runners would hold there knee against the tank unil they turned the bike when entering left hand corners. These same riders would stick their knee out early, as soon as they started to brake when entering right hand corners.
If you have the race on tape or tivo watch Melandri and Pedrosa going into the last corner and the left hand hairpin in the middle of the track. Both of these corners are very hard braking left handers. Notice how both Melandri and Pedrosa keep both knees against the tank when entering these corners and the don't stick their knee out until they turn the bike.
These same two riders will stick their knee out the moment they start braking for turn one, a hard braking right hander.
Stoner sticks his knee out early all the time. They didn't show much of Rossi, but it looked like he was doing the same as Pedrosa and Melandri.
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ROFL
(Does somebody need a "time out"?)
Sorry couldn't help myself, I'll sit in the corner for a while
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Hey if ALL THE PROS are doing it then you should do it that way too. Sorry for the bad advice. Just do it the way the pros do and I'm sure you'll be fine.
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Scoot your but over but don't stick your knee out until you turn in. Use both knees to pinch the tank, even though your butt is off to one side. It might feel a bit awkward at first but it will become more natural with practice.
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The idea is to relax BOTH hands once you have the bike turned.
It takes some presure on the bars to get the bike turned of course. But once you get the bike to the lean angle you want you can relax your hands, arms, shoulders, upper body, etc...
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... the shortest race report ever
What: WSMC Streets Series Round 3
Where: Streets of Willow
When:Sunday 10/7/07
I was sick with the Flu all week so I drove up to the track this morning and raced with no real practice, just the morning warm up session.
Entered three races (Open Superstock, Open Modified Production, Open Superbike), lead every lap won every race.
That is all
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The Toyota 200 at Willow Springs is the richest race in all of road racing with $150,000.00 up for grabs and it’s supposed to be a continuous 200 mile test of endurance. Unfortunately this year’s event was interrupted by several race stoppages and ended up more like a bunch of separate races run back to back. Each red flag stoppage lasted around 15 minutes and this gave the teams plenty of time to change tires and re-fuel during the break, it allowed the riders to recover as well.
A lot of time and effort go into planning for a 200 mile race. You have to organize your pit crew, practice pit stops and make modifications to your bike so that you can change tires and re-fuel quickly. As a rider you need to prepare yourself to go the distance as well. Riding hard for two hours is exhausting and if you’re not ready for it, it’s more like torture. Every year during the Toyota 200 I wonder why I’m doing the race again and think that I’m never going to put myself through this the next year. However when the race ends the satisfaction of finishing makes it worth it.
This year I was well prepared to go the distance. I was using the same ZX10 I raced last year so I didn’t have to do much to the bike to get it ready. I worked pretty hard on my fitness as well. I rode my bicycle about 5 days a week in the months before the race and I think that makes the race a lot easier. I organized my pit crew early and we had a practice at my house a few weeks prior to the race. The guys helping me out did a great job during the practice runs and I had a ton of confidence in them going into the race.
There are two qualifying sessions prior to the t200. The first round of qualifying was a month before the race and I ended up qualifying 8th fastest during that session. I knew the time I put in would be good enough to get me in the race (the fastest 40 riders qualify each year) but I knew I would probably be pushed back some in the qualifying session that occurs the Friday before the race. On the weekend of the race some pretty fast guys showed up (Jeremy Toye, Jason Pridmore, Rich Oliver, Jackob Smrz, etc…) and I ended up getting pushed back to 22nd on the grid. I wasn’t too concerned about starting position as it really doesn’t make much difference in a race of this length.
Saturday (the day before the 200) WSMC holds all of the normal club races. I hadn’t planned on racing any events on Saturday, but the guys at Michelin wanted me to test a tire so I signed up for the 12 lap Formula One race. Formula One if the premier race of the day with all the fastest riders trying for the win and the $1000 that goes along with that. I was going to be running on a tire that already had 10 hard laps on it and starting from the back of the grid so I didn’t have any expectations of doing well. I ended up having a great race with Tyler Paulson for the whole 12 laps. I ended up finishing in front of Tyler, but only because he kinda let me lead on the last lap and then couldn’t get back around me. It was a fun race and the tire I tested worked well for the 22 laps I ended up putting on it and I figured it would be a good tire to use in the 200.
Race day turned out to be a perfect day for racing. The temperature was perfect and the sun was bright in the desert sky. As I pulled my bike out onto the grid and looked up the hill it was cool to see all spectators lining the fences and I was looking forward to doing my best to give them a good show. The track even provided all of the riders with umbrella girls so we could have a little shade while waiting on the grid. I took my time on the warm up lap and made sure to salute all my friends watching up in turn four.
So the green flag drops at the start of a 2 hour race and 40 riders head into turn one all looking to make up a spot or two. A bunch of guys are super aggressive cutting in and out of traffic, but I play it cool and try to stay out of trouble. I fell back a few places on the first lap or two but I knew it would be a long race and there is no sense in putting yourself too much at risk on the first few laps.
After the first few laps I settle into my race pace and start to knock off laps. My pit board was telling me I was around 20th and I had a few 600s to play with so it was all good. I relaxed and followed three other riders for a bunch of laps and when their pace started to drop off I passed them and moved up a couple spots. After around 29 laps my fuel light came on and I signaled my pit crew that I was coming in.
A lap later I was screaming into the pit lane for some fuel and tires. I pulled my bike into the pit stall and hopped off to get a drink and clean my face shield. While I relaxed my awesome pit crew scrambled to change my rear tire and fill the tank with race gas. My pit crew did a great job to get their work done in about 30 seconds which didn’t give me much time to rest. I was back on the bike and ripping out of the pits in no time, only to be back in the pits about three laps later due to a race stoppage.
Just after my pit stop came the first red flag of the race and we all had to go back in the pits and wait for the track to be cleaned up. This kinda hurt my effort. I had entered the pits in 20th place and exited in 15th. Because of the awesome work by my pit crew I made up several places and put some ground between me and the riders chasing. Unfortunately the red flag changed all that and we had to start over as a group.
We restarted the race and I again lost a few positions on the start due to my being conservative and not wanting to mix it up and put my self at risk. I figured I’d have 40 laps to work my way back towards the front. This was not to be as a few laps later I noticed the corner worker in turn two holding a yellow flag. As I entered the turn my eyes just about came out of my head when I saw the WALL OF FLAMES and thick black smoke I was going to have to ride through. Someone had crashed on the entrance to the turn and their bike exploded and spewed gas all over the track. By the time I saw the flames there was no way I was going to get stopped and besides I didn’t want someone to hit me from behind. So I put my head down and rode through the flames like one of those dare devils crashing through a burning wall. Back into the pits to sit and wait while the track workers clean up the mess.
Another re-start, another few laps and then another red flag. This time it was because a rider had fallen in turn 5 and left a few large pieces of his bike on the track. Another chance for the riders to recover and another chance for me to loose a few places on the restart.
After the final re-start we had 22 laps left. I rode conservatively for the first few laps, it would be terrible to come this far and get taken out by some super aggressive rider trying to make up time at the start. I was gridded 15th for the last restart and when I came around my pit board showed me that I had slipped to 20th which was very disappointing. I was freaken pissed that I had worked so hard preparing for this race and I wasn’t getting the results I had hoped for. I kept at it though and just rode my pace. I worked my way past a few riders and my pit board showed me up to 18th. As the laps wound down I was able to pass a few more riders and I figured that I probably ended up around 16th. I was a big relief to see the checkered flag wave and I could finally let up. I was pretty disappointed on the cool down lap and pulled into the pits with my head hung low. This is until my crew informed me that I had actually finished 12th!
Now 12th isn’t the result I was looking for, I had hoped to finish in the top ten like I did last year (7th), but I was very satisfied with that result. Things just didn’t go the way I had planned this year. I felt the red flags really hurt my game plan and that a lot of the training and preparation was all for naught because of all the stoppages. However, it was a very competitive field this year and finishing just outside the top ten is OK by me. My crew did a great job with our one green flag pit stop and I felt pretty darn good.
I’ll be back in the 200 again next year and I’m sure I’ll be asking myself why I’m putting myself through this again. But when it’s over I’m sure I’ll feel pretty good about doing the race and be looking forward to the next one, just like I am now.
I have to say thanks to all the guys and girls that helped me out in the pits this year. Steve, James, Matthias, Reggie, Mike, Dustin and Lucy all did a great job!
I also have to say thanks to The California Superbike School, Advanced Kawasaki and Michelin tires for all their support as well. KBC Helmets and AGV Sport leathers kept me safe even while riding through a wall of flames.
Did I mention that I was dead tired at the end of the race
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But first a definition. Trail braking to me is trailing off (slowly releasing) the brakes.
Does trail braking into a corner work? Yes (as someone pointed out, the top riders use it regularly). How well does it work? Depends on how well you employ it.
To me this is not about whether one should trail brake or not. I just see it as another skill I will have to master if I want to be the best rider I can be.
I'd like to add a little something to your definition for the sake of this discussion.
"Trail braking to me is trailing off (slowly releasing) the brakes" after the point at which you start to lean the bike into the corner.
Most people would not consider it trail braking if the bike is straight up and down.
Again this thread is about where and when to trail brake, not whether or not trail braking is an effective technique. This thread is all about whether one should trail brake or not, whether or not to do it in every corner or just some corners and if only some then which ones and why I think is really the point we are discussing.
Backing It In...
in Cornering and Techniques
Posted
Racer, I'm done. You obviously feel what you recommend is the only "right" way to perform a given technique and don't really want to listen to what others have to say. I stand behind everything I have posted on this thread and am not "backing off" anything that I have posted or implied.
I find your condescending tone insulting and really don't care to continue debating this with you.